Mash temp

[LouBrew13]

If I were to strive for 154 on my mash temp, would that be a good balance for almost all single infusion mashes? Just a thought...

 

[TyTanium]

Yes

 

[jotakah]

I love it when I hit 154 on single-infusion mashes. If you miss and are a few degrees low, no big deal. Miss a few degrees up (but below 156, for me), no big deal. 154 is my target that I try to hit, for sure.

 

[LouBrew13]

That's what I was hoping for. I figured a good mix of body and fermentability. If that's a word. I've come a degree or 2 over and just stirred uncovered until it dropped and then just left it.

 

[TyTanium]

I don't have data to back me up, but I'm not convinced a beer mashed at 152 vs 154 vs 156 would be distinguishable. At least not consciously. There are so many other variables.

Get it close (+/- 2 degrees) and you're golden.

 

[LouBrew13]

I'm sure that you're right that a degree here or there would make very little difference. However, I know me...a degree here, a day there, hop additions skewed a few minutes, too many variables that I could screw up. I'm dialing in my ag brew days so I'm consistent and then I could rdwhahb

 

[tre9er]

If you had the beers side by side you could definitely tell diff between 152 and 156. The higher temp would be more dextrinous, less fermentable chains and more mouthfeel whereas the lower temp is drier.

I shoot high, stir-down, and factor in your heat loss over the course of the mash. If it's great, start high, knowing it will fall.

 

[TyTanium]

If you had the beers side by side you could definitely tell diff between 152 and 156. The higher temp would be more dextrinous, less fermentable chains and more mouthfeel whereas the lower temp is drier

You think so? Have you ever done it? I know the science, and you're definitely right on there, I just don't know if the difference is enough to pick out.

 

[mjohnson]

I don't have data to back me up, but I'm not convinced a beer mashed at 152 vs 154 vs 156 would be distinguishable. At least not consciously. There are so many other variables.

Get it close (+/- 2 degrees) and you're golden.

I'm also coming to the same conclusion. By all means, try to hit your temps, but its not that big of a deal. It'd be a fun experiment to try, though...

 

[jotakah]

You think so? Have you ever done it? I know the science, and you're definitely right on there, I just don't know if the difference is enough to pick out.

I wonder this ALL THE TIME. I have so many recipes that I've made that say "mash @ 152 60min" or something just because that's how I did it the first time I made that brew, and I really enjoyed how that brew turn out. But what if it was my fermentation temperature that sealed-the-deal on deliciousness, or one of a million other factors?

Being a non-beer-related scientist in my professional life really makes me skeptical of some of the ultra-precise things I pay attention to in brewing.

As long as the saccharine-rest mash temp stays above 149F and below 156F... RDWHAHB

 

[tre9er]

You think so? Have you ever done it? I know the science, and you're definitely right on there, I just don't know if the difference is enough to pick out.

Have not but haven't brewed same beer Twice in short succession. I have noticed my lower mash temp beers came out dry. I was missing temp for a while. Now I overheat strike and stir down.

 

[Phunhog]

I usually try to shoot for a range rather than a specific number. Instead of 154...I would be happy with 153-155. Now obviously it would be an issue if I was at 158 or 148 but....you will still make beer. The other thing in our homebrew systems temperature is not a constant. It fluctuates over time and in different parts of the mash tun.

 

[tre9er]

I usually try to shoot for a range rather than a specific number. Instead of 154...I would be happy with 153-155. Now obviously it would be an issue if I was at 158 or 148 but....you will still make beer. The other thing in our homebrew systems temperature is not a constant. It fluctuates over time and in different parts of the mash tun.

The last part is particularly true. And I have two different thermometers that read within 1 degree of each other in water, but read mash temps in the same spot about 2-3* different...go figure.

 

[MikeinCT]

I shoot for 155 +/- 1. I am pretty sure my effiency goes up as I get away from the low end - say 150. - Mike

 

[LouBrew13]

I shoot for 155 +/- 1. I am pretty sure my effiency goes up as I get away from the low end - say 150. - Mike

Are you saying that efficiency would go up based on temp of mash?

 

[TyTanium]

From Braukaiser.com:

...differences in brewhouse yield...must be largely due to changes in the conversion efficiency (a measure of how well the mash converted the starches available in the grist). ...lower temperature mash rests lead to a lower mash efficiency. Which is expected since not as many starches have gelatinized yet and the alpha amylase which is the major enzyme responsible for liquefying starches is less active. Note that all experiments were done as 60 min mashes and that the lower efficiency at the lower mash temps can be accounted for by mashing for a longer time...

 

[LouBrew13]

So could I mash with boiling water for 10 minutes to speed up my brew day? Kidding...

That is interesting, I thought it was mostly crush, slow sparging, and eliminating dough balls that led to good efficiency.

 

[TyTanium]

That is interesting, I thought it was mostly crush, slow sparging, and eliminating dough balls that led to good efficiency.

Correct. Temp does make a theoretical difference, but it's well within the margin of error in most systems. Kaiser's study is awesome, but the sample size is too small for me to base calculations on it - just guiding my intuition. The factors you mentioned are FAR more important, IMO.

I think Kai tried sparging with cold tap water once, and even that didn't lead to a horrible dropoff in efficiency.

 

[Stackolee]

As for me, I mash stovetop, so I tend to aim for 142 (61C). This since there'll be a temperature diff between the measurable section of the mash (using a lab thermometer) and the part closer to the stove. I figure the range will be 142-160 throughout which should give me a good balance.

 

[Phunhog]

The other thing to realize is that you don't necessarily need to do a 60 minute mash. Now I usually do but....I take refractometer reading during my mash and found I pretty much get full conversion in 30-40 minutes. The refrac readings don't change the last 20 minutes so why am I bothering to hold the temp?
Getting back to the temperature thread......I thought I read/heard somewhere that with well modified malts your fermentability profile is pretty much set after 15-20 minutes of mashing. So maybe you only really have to hold your temp for 20-30 minutes and then start a mash out?

 

[TyTanium]

The refrac readings don't change the last 20 minutes so why am I bothering to hold the temp?
...I thought I read/heard somewhere that with well modified malts your fermentability profile is pretty much set after 15-20 minutes of mashing...

I've not heard that. My understanding is the sugar profile keeps changing as long as you're in alpha or beta range.

 

[LouBrew13]

It would be great to find out that I could start sparging in only a half hour. My brew day would be shortened or it would free up time to start another batch same day. I should start testing for conversion earlier. Wonder if it would also depend on which grains I were mashing...

 

[Phunhog]

I've not heard that. My understanding is the sugar profile keeps changing as long as you're in alpha or beta range.

I could be wrong but it makes sense....You can't mash at 154 for an hour, then mash at 148 for an hour and expect to have a dry beer. The sugar profile is set after a certain time frame at a certain temperature. I believe it was somebody from Briess Malting that said that with most of today's well-modified malts your sugar profile is set within 20 minutes. It certainly gives some basis for shorter mashing times.

 

[TyTanium]

No, but that's because the beta gets denatured. Works if you go the other way...148 to 158 for e.g.

Not disagreeing with you because I've never studied it, only parroting what I've read. I'd be curious to see what you heard from Briess.

 

[bumstigedy]

If everything really converts in about 20 minutes then you don't need a fancy mash control system. My uninstalled mash tin will hold temp for that long without having to fire.

Interested in understanding how long conversion really takes.

 

[Komodo]

someone did an experiment with this . .I think James from Better Brewing. I also recently suggested to him to do one with the same exact beer mashed at different temps to see if you could tell the difference.