Mash pH

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Ingo

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I was just mashing a Best Bitter and didn't remember to check pH until almost at the end of the mash and then it was just a little under 5.2.
Maybe 5.15 or so.

My googling around tells me a lower pH will lead to higher attenuation and drier beer and that's maybe not what I'd want in a bitter.
I'm a noob brewer (this was my 4th all grain) so maybe I'm looking too much into detail but I just want good beer :)

Btw I'm using Imperial pub A09 yeast. That was the best option by brewstore had. I've used that before in a bitter with good results.
 
you are fine. it may be drier than intended but it wont be bad .

i just started to recently check my mash pH's. i went through ten batches or so before i started worrying bout pH. i still drank all that beer and it was very good.
 
I can’t bring myself to buy a ph tester. Cost and calibration with limited shelf life buffering solutions have been the main deterrents. So this might be an unshared opinion but I don’t think one really needs one.

Unless your water changes drastically each batch and you’re running a full water report before adjusting and brewing there’s some guess work and good faith assumptions.

I use my water report, adjust with LA, gypsum and/or calcium chloride and never look back. Again, this is one brewer who does what works for him.
 
I don't even know why I check pH anymore. It always ends up being exactly what Brewer's Friend estimates it is. I often think "I'll add this much lactic acid or this much baking soda, but I might need to add more if the pH is off," but it always ends up being exactly as estimated.
 
pH is one of the last things most home brewers need to worry about, most are better off getting their water profile and adjusting the water chemistry according to the style. The grain should _mostly_ buffer the pH on it's own.
 
I can’t bring myself to buy a ph tester. Cost and calibration with limited shelf life buffering solutions have been the main deterrents. So this might be an unshared opinion but I don’t think one really needs one.

Unless your water changes drastically each batch and you’re running a full water report before adjusting and brewing there’s some guess work and good faith assumptions.

I use my water report, adjust with LA, gypsum and/or calcium chloride and never look back. Again, this is one brewer who does what works for him.

I don't even know why I check pH anymore. It always ends up being exactly what Brewer's Friend estimates it is. I often think "I'll add this much lactic acid or this much baking soda, but I might need to add more if the pH is off," but it always ends up being exactly as estimated.
Same. I didn't test pH for the first 6 years I brewed. Got my hands on a pH meter from a friend and figured, why not try it out? I checked 4 batches in a row, and it matched exactly what Brewfather said. Beer turns out fine. That's all the reassurance I need.
 
I don't understand why anybody would not check pH during mashing. You extract tannins if it's too high and inhibit enzyme activity if it's too low. You want a pH between 5.2 and 5.5 and hitting that range is not easy without measurement.
 
You want a pH between 5.2 and 5.5 and hitting that range is not easy without measurement.
Honestly, I don’t think it’s that hard and that’s a fairly big range. If shooting for 5.35 (the middle of your example), most of my 5 gallon batches would require, at least, a 10ml miscalculation of 88% lactic acid to miss.

If a ph meter gives anyone a warm fuzzy, I’m not trying to dissuade them. I’m just reassuring those who think missing a ph reading will have a negative effect on their beer. It likely won’t.
 
I don't understand why anybody would not check pH during mashing. You extract tannins if it's too high and inhibit enzyme activity if it's too low. You want a pH between 5.2 and 5.5 and hitting that range is not easy without measurement.
Without seeing actual numbers I'd guess most home brewers do not check mash pH. Software is so good at predicting nowadays. Serious brewers/competition brewers probably do, but like I said in my previous post, I didn't check mash pH for well over 200 batches. The few times I did recently, I was spot on. YMMV. (Not saying you shouldn't check mash pH! I've just had great luck!)
 
pH is one of the last things most home brewers need to worry about, most are better off getting their water profile and adjusting the water chemistry according to the style. The grain should _mostly_ buffer the pH on it's own.

This is not correct. I agree that there are a lot of things brewers should focus on BEFORE worrying about mash pH, it's not as insignificant as you're suggesting. Only very dark beers would likely land in the acceptable zone of pH. Moderately pale to very pale beers ALL need acid, even if you use distilled water and especially if the source water is even a little bit alkaline.

On the contrary, I believe that landing in the 5.0-5.6 mash pH range is the first thing a brewer should do when considering water's impact. Moderate flavor enhancements such as chloride/sulfate ratios should be the last thing.

Specifically addressing the OP's concern, the fermentability of the wort is WAY more driven by the mash temperature/schedule than the pH. Not to worry there.
 
I never asked IF I should check pH. I just asked if, and then how it would AFFECT the quality of my beer if pH was a bit more acidic than recommended pH range.
 
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This is not correct. I agree that there are a lot of things brewers should focus on BEFORE worrying about mash pH, it's not as insignificant as you're suggesting. Only very dark beers would likely land in the acceptable zone of pH. Moderately pale to very pale beers ALL need acid, even if you use distilled water and especially if the source water is even a little bit alkaline.

On the contrary, I believe that landing in the 5.0-5.6 mash pH range is the first thing a brewer should do when considering water's impact. Moderate flavor enhancements such as chloride/sulfate ratios should be the last thing.

Specifically addressing the OP's concern, the fermentability of the wort is WAY more driven by the mash temperature/schedule than the pH. Not to worry there.
I never said it wasn't important, I was expressing in the grand scheme of things it's not always primary focus/goal. Sorry if that didn't come across well. Personally, I'd rather have a pH a little off of the pH goal in order to get my chemistry to match a bit more to the style. But, we can agree to disagree on our methodology (and with John Palmer).
 
I don't understand why anybody would not check pH during mashing. You extract tannins if it's too high and inhibit enzyme activity if it's too low. You want a pH between 5.2 and 5.5 and hitting that range is not easy without measurement.
On the other hand, I had a pH meter, all it did was confirm that the Brun Water spreadsheet did a good job of predicting mash pH. It broke, I didn't replace it, didn't seem worth it.
 
How do you know if the water calculator works for your water if you never check pH?
How did people know they were making good beer before the pH meter was invented?
I use ph stabilizer and set it to 5.5 never had any issues.
What pH stabilizer and how do you "set it to 5.5"? The Five Star pH stabilizer is 5.2; also, it's just a phosphate buffer, and it is basically not possible to make a phosphate buffer that is both concentrated enough to keep any mash (regardless of grain bill and starting water alkalinity) at pH 5.2 and dilute enough to not impact the flavor of the beer. As Martin 'Bru'n Water' Brungard said: "Works great for brewers that don't check mash pH. Doesn't work at all for brewers that do check mash pH."
 
I use ph stabilizer and set it to 5.5 never had any issues.
If that's referring to the Five Star Ph Stabilizer product, it's rather unlikely your mash pH is actually anywhere near 5.2.

That product was created for a single specific customer with unknown (to everyone else) water chemistry, grain bill, and mash metrics. It's a shame Five Star tries to sell it broadly...

Cheers!
 
I never said it wasn't important, I was expressing in the grand scheme of things it's not always primary focus/goal. Sorry if that didn't come across well. Personally, I'd rather have a pH a little off of the pH goal in order to get my chemistry to match a bit more to the style. But, we can agree to disagree on our methodology (and with John Palmer).

Palmer never, ever, said that water targets are more important than the actual mash pH.
Water targets are silly- I mean, most of them have whatever the water that 'may have been used' has. Like a bicarbonate level of 102, for example. Well, the actual target of bicarbonate is that which gives you a mash pH of 5.2-5.5 or so.
Using a water profile as a target is not really ever a good idea, if it includes akalinity. Many of those will tell you to use baking soda, and then acid to reduce the alkalinity of the baking soda. Or worse, they simply aren't possible without extraneous measures. The best target is one that gives you the appropriate amount of alkalinity and calcium and sulfate and chloride for the beer you're trying to make, which may or may not be the water target of, say, Dublin.

I use ph stabilizer and set it to 5.5 never had any issues.

No such thing, so maybe you're confused? The 5.2 'stabilizer' is snake oil, and will not (cannot) produce a mash pH of 5.2 in a mash using water with a higher alkalinity than basically RO water. It's just not possible. I did buy into that notion about 20 years ago, and tested it myself and never once had a lowered mash pH let alone as low as 5.2 using that buffer.
 
Thanks, yeah my bad. I had misheard a podcast where he was mentioning it, he said water pH adjustment vs mash pH adjustment as it was putting the cart before the horse, or something along those lines.
 
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I have a food probe with my Apera pH meter that I use to check the mash pH. I scoop a little out and cool it to test the pH at about 10 minutes in and I've never regretted the double-check. It's the chemist in me :) it's rare but every once in awhile I need to make an adjustment.
 
pH is one of the last things most home brewers need to worry about, most are better off getting their water profile and adjusting the water chemistry according to the style. The grain should _mostly_ buffer the pH on it's own.
Most homebrewers pay too little attention to pH, rather than too much. Most will check a sample of the mash and say "good to go." One should be paying attention to the pH throughout the entire process, from mash to finished beer.
 
Most homebrewers pay too little attention to pH, rather than too much. Most will check a sample of the mash and say "good to go." One should be paying attention to the pH throughout the entire process, from mash to finished beer.
I fall into this camp. I don’t check PH, at all.

Out of curiosity, what value does checking PH of the finished beer provide? Do you find that it’s outside of expectation very often? If so, what do you do?
 
I fall into this camp. I don’t check PH, at all.

Out of curiosity, what value does checking PH of the finished beer provide? Do you find that it’s outside of expectation very often? If so, what do you do?
Mash: It's more about knowing what to do next time you brew the same or a similar beer, especially if it's significantly off of what one of the spreadsheet tools is predicting. Because conversion happens so fast, taking steps to correct won't affect anything for that brew.

Post boil: you can shoot for a specific knockout pH, which affects flavor.
Post fermentaiton: same as post boil regarding flavor expression, and if it's above 4.2 (which typically isn't the case), then it's a safety issue.
 
Most homebrewers pay too little attention to pH, rather than too much. Most will check a sample of the mash and say "good to go." One should be paying attention to the pH throughout the entire process, from mash to finished beer.
When I plan a brew session (all inclusive) I use a wholistic approach, starting with my known water composition, the contributions made by the grist, and general desired balance I want in the finished beer.

I design the mash to have an initial target pH between 5.2~5.4, measured at :10 after dough-in, and usually hit that target. If it’s a bit high, I adjust with lactic acid. If it’s too acidic I just let it ride since I don’t think there’s a simple or accurate way to raise alkalinity during the mash. The chemistry and pH of the wort will change anyway as the mash and conversion progress.

After mash (and sparge, if I do one) I’ll acidify the pre-boil wort to target pH 4.8~4.9. My opinion is that slightly lower pH results in a crisper, cleaner, more microbial stable finished beer that stays fresher longer.
 
I’ll acidify the pre-boil wort to target pH 4.8~4.9. My opinion is that slightly lower pH results in a crisper, cleaner, more microbial stable finished beer that stays fresher longer.
I'd be interested in reading more on this. Do you have references? The 4.8 to 4.9 pH value, tĥat is.
 
I don’t right off hand, but I believe it was in one of the many hyperlinked articles I come across (probably Beer and Brewing) that suggested targeting pH slightly below 5.0 for fermentation. Then when I got interested in low/no alcohol brewing the recommendations were to target pH 4.6 or lower in finished beer for food safety and microbial stability.

It seemed that those beers were coming out crisper, so I started acidifying just prior to fermentation (pH 4.8~4.9). It doesn’t take much lactic acid to get a 6 gallon batch down to that level, usually well under 10 ml.
 
I fall into this camp. I don’t check PH, at all.

Out of curiosity, what value does checking PH of the finished beer provide? Do you find that it’s outside of expectation very often? If so, what do you do?

You don't have to CHECK pH as much as you have to understand where your mash pH will likely land giving the water you use and the grain bill's typical acidity. If you use tap water and you have no idea what the ionic makeup of it is, you'd be shooting blind. If you use RO or distilled, it's way easier to use simple rules of thumb to be sure you're not in a problematic high pH situation.
How does it affect the beer? Pale beers will be astringent, almost all of the time.
 
The pH will drop more post boil and can change with whirlpool hops, dry hops and with fermentation. Very unlikely that your beer you drink will have a pH as high as 5.15.
You have a meter so can test this in a little while.
 
If it's not too far off topic I'd be interested to know people's pH goals for certain styles. I.e. 5.3 for hazies, 5.4 for pale ales, 5.5 for stouts, things like that - do folks drive characteristics intentionally with certain pH targets? Or do we just aim for 5.4-ish across the board to prevent issues and call it a day?
 
f it's not too far off topic I'd be interested to know people's pH goals for certain styles. I.e. 5.3 for hazies, 5.4 for pale ales, 5.5 for stouts,
I've been finding correlation between pH and color. I now mash my RIS's at 5.5-5.6 and find that they mellow and are more homogenized sooner, and I mean 3 mos instead of 6. Also my Pils and fizzy yellow beers are crisp, clean and clear when mashed at 4.9-5.2. I make quite a few beers that are copper color and because of the other 2, I mash these at 5.3-5.4 and they turn out quite well.
You might ask how I do that being I don't use a computer for my recipes. Well Bobby is right that with RO and 344 batches under my belt ( and down the gullet) I got it figured out. That didn't happen without a meter, and now I rarely check unless it's a new recipe.
 
That didn't happen without a meter, and now I rarely check unless it's a new recipe.

Thanks for the #'s. That's the direction I aim, the #'s I listed (including lagers on the lower end with the hazies), after a lot of reading but it's cool to see someone agree with the rules of thumb in practice. I might aim a little lower on the latter next time.

I measure every batch, but it's becoming fairly predictable now. I've got about 10 "styles" I routinely brew with small changes if any changes and so there's not much I can't predict at this point (grains vs additions and resulting pH). But with my LHBS closing and moving online I've started to pay attention again since I know that, for example, a new brand of Maris Otter can make a big difference over the brand I'd used the previous batches. And it's making me wonder if my targets are about right, or my directions at least (seems they are).
 
I use acidulated malt to adjust acid so when i get a new 5 lb bag I do a meter check on the first batch to be sure. Never thought to check each new malt bag.
 
If it's not too far off topic I'd be interested to know people's pH goals for certain styles. I.e. 5.3 for hazies, 5.4 for pale ales, 5.5 for stouts, things like that - do folks drive characteristics intentionally with certain pH targets? Or do we just aim for 5.4-ish across the board to prevent issues and call it a day?
A few recipes I've taken from info on craft beer podcasts by pros, they have been adding acid after the boil to counteract the pH rise associated with big whirlpool hops and the upcoming dry hopping.
Some seemed to be going into the low 4's
 
A couple of people said they don't check pH at all, and if I always brewed the same style and had it dialed in, I probably would be in that camp. But I try to brew something different most of the time and I don't necessarily follow recipes.
 
A few recipes I've taken from info on craft beer podcasts by pros, they have been adding acid after the boil to counteract the pH rise associated with big whirlpool hops and the upcoming dry hopping.
Some seemed to be going into the low 4's
Post-boil pH is definitely a consideration when large whirlpool or dry hop additions are planned. The general rule is a 0.1 pH rise for every pound per barrel, or 0.5 oz per gallon.

With some large WP/DH additions in an NEIPA that could easily push the pH out of the ideal range.
 
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