Mash-out and volume

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

AnOldUR

fer-men-TAY-shuhn
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,847
Reaction score
856
For my next brew day I plan a double infusion mash (protein rest and mash-out.) With all the water additions at the steps the volume (after absorption) will be getting close to what I need for the boil. Is there any disadvantage to almost topping off my 48qt MLT at mash-out temperature so that I only have to lauter once? Or is it best to use the minimum amount of water to reach mash-out temperature and sparging after the first run off?
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
25,300
Reaction score
4,313
Location
Whitehouse Station
You'll just get a lower efficiency. It's actually a no sparge if you just drain the tun once. You'd get a better return if you didn't mash out but rather drained after your sac rest, then one batch sparge in the volume you would have used to mash out.
 
OP
AnOldUR

AnOldUR

fer-men-TAY-shuhn
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,847
Reaction score
856
Reading the pros, cons and necessity of mash-out makes my head spin. I wanted to try it anyway, just to learn the technique. The trouble is that using hot water infusion to raise the temperature has me only 5 quarts away from what I need for the final volume. Would a single sparge with that small amount of water make a significant difference in efficiency?
 

raceskier

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
610
Reaction score
3
Location
Port Townsend
anoldur,

Did you mean saccharification rest rather than protien rest?

What you can do is to dial back your water to grain ratio for the sacch rest, (Don't go too low, Palmer recommends 1.25 lb/qt minimum) as you may get a less fermentable wort. Then calc the minimum infusion of boiling water to reach a 168 to 170 F mashout. This should leave you with closer to even volumes of initial runoff and sparge. As you mentioned, the necessity of a mashout step is highly debated. If you skip that step, it should be even easier to get equal volumes for initial runoff and sparge.
 

Bobby_M

Vendor and Brewer
HBT Sponsor
Joined
Aug 3, 2006
Messages
25,300
Reaction score
4,313
Location
Whitehouse Station
The only benefit of a mashout in the traditional sense of stopping conversion is when you're going to fly sparge for 60 minutes and are worried about getting too fermentable.

It has been argued that in batch sparging, getting the grainbed up to 170f or close prior to running off increases efficiency but a hotter sparge, by itself, is more effective. I've tried both a few times and it always checks out.

I encourage you to try it for yourself both ways so you can see what I mean.
 
OP
AnOldUR

AnOldUR

fer-men-TAY-shuhn
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,847
Reaction score
856
Did you mean saccharification rest rather than protien rest?
The plan is to do a 30 minute protein rest at .9qt/lb and 122 degrees, followed by 60 minute saccrification at 1.4 qts/lb and 150 degrees, and then the mash-out. It’s a Belgian/American IPA and has some flaked wheat. I’m trying to get a head like Houblon Chouffe. I was hoping the protein rest will help this.

I encourage you to try it for yourself both ways so you can see what I mean.
Yeah, this is kind of an experiment, but I still want good beer. I have never done a no sparge mash, but thought it might work here.
 

korndog

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
1,119
Reaction score
9
Location
westlake village, ca
anoldur said:
The plan is to do a 30 minute protein rest at .9qt/lb and 122 degrees, followed by 60 minute saccrification at 1.4 qts/lb and 150 degrees, and then the mash-out. It’s a Belgian/American IPA and has some flaked wheat. I’m trying to get a head like Houblon Chouffe. I was hoping the protein rest will help this.


Yeah, this is kind of an experiment, but I still want good beer. I have never done a no sparge mash, but thought it might work here.
Like to know how this come out. I like the La Chouffe beers. I use flaked wheat in IPA and get a luscious head of foam without protein rest. I'm not a very experienced AG'er, but I have been getting some VERY good wort with a one drain mash-out. I lock to efficiency in promash, and go about 56%. I'm just adding my two cents since you have gotten advice from guys with way more experience than I have.

KD
 

FSR402

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
2,808
Reaction score
30
Location
Jenison, MI
I would just skip the mash-out and just do two sparges.
Just fire up the kettle as soon as your done draining the tun the first time to get the wort up to over 170* and then you don't have to worry about it. Two quick sparges wont take you long so it's not a big deal.
 
OP
AnOldUR

AnOldUR

fer-men-TAY-shuhn
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,847
Reaction score
856
korndog wrote:
Like to know how this come out. I like the La Chouffe beers.
I have found only bits and pieces of Houblon Chouffe ingredients and recipe here and other places on the web. My supplies didn't get here for a brew day today (DAMN SNOW!), but here's the plan for some time next week. It'll be a late night! Any comments on the recipe or technique?

Houblon IPA
Style: Belgian American IPA
Batch Size: 5 gallons
Original Gravity: 1.072 (est)
Final Gravity: 1.015 (est)
Efficiency: 65% (est)
Alcohol: 7.5 abv (est)
Bitterness: 61 IBU

Ingredient List
9.00 lbs Belgian Pale Malt Grain - Dingeman’s
5.00 lbs Belgian Pilsner Malt Grain - Dingeman’s
1.00 lbs Belgian Biscuit Malt Grain - Dingeman’s
1.00 lbs Flaked Wheat Grain
2.00 oz Tomahawk Hops – Alpha 11.0%
1.00 oz Saaz Hops – Alpha 4.0%
1.00 oz Amarillo Hops – Alpha 8.5%
Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity
1.00 tsp Irish Moss
1.00 tbl pH Stabilizer
10 Gallons Bottled Water

Brew Plan
Protein Rest:
Mash thickness: 1.0 qt/lb
16 quarts (4g) of water @ 142 degrees
Target temperature: 125 degrees
Strike temperature: 137 degrees
Rest for 30 minutes / Mix every 10 minutes
Mash In:
Mash thickness: 1.5 qt/lb
Target temperature: 150 degrees
8.0 quarts (2g) of water @ near boiling
Mash for 60 minutes / Mix every 10 minutes
Mash Out:
Target temperature: 168 degrees
Final MLT Volume: 47 quarts (including grain)
12 quarts (4g) of water @ near boiling water
check temperature
6 quarts (1.5g) of water @ 170 degrees
Rest for 10 minutes
Lauter:
Recirculate until wort runs clear
Drain MLT slowly
Yield 7 gallons of wort
Boil:
60 minutes 1.00 oz Tomahawk
30 minutes 1.00 oz Tomahawk
10 minutes 1.00 oz Saaz
5 minutes 1 tsp Irish Moss
After Flame Out:
Cool wort with chiller to 70 degrees
Strain 5.25 gallons into 6.5 gallon carboy
Shake well
Take gravity reading
Aerate
Pitch yeast
Primary for 14 days
Secondary for 14 days
Dry Hop w/ 1 oz Amarillo
 

Blender

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2006
Messages
3,106
Reaction score
8
Location
Santa Cruz, CA.
Couldn't you just drain some of the wort off at the 122 point and heat it to roughly 155 and add it back into the mash to raise the temp and use less water additons?
 
OP
AnOldUR

AnOldUR

fer-men-TAY-shuhn
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
6,847
Reaction score
856
Couldn't you just drain some of the wort off at the 122 point and heat it to roughly 155 and add it back into the mash to raise the temp and use less water additons?
I have heard of this and gave it some thought, but the details worry me. You'd have to heat the wort to well over 155 to get the grain bed to the desired temperature. I don't know how to calculate the right number and am not sure if it would get to a temperature that might effect enzymes and flavor. BeerSmith gives me all the step temperatures for the method I plan to use.
 

Blender

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2006
Messages
3,106
Reaction score
8
Location
Santa Cruz, CA.
anoldur said:
I have heard of this and gave it some thought, but the details worry me. You'd have to heat the wort to well over 155 to get the grain bed to the desired temperature. I don't know how to calculate the right number and am not sure if it would get to a temperature that might effect enzymes and flavor. BeerSmith gives me all the step temperatures for the method I plan to use.
I would heat it to just 155, add it back and take a temp reading. It would have to raise the temp some which would mean less water additions. I dunno, just a thought.
 
Top