Marzen - recipe for constructive criticism

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kaziel

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Hello, I'm putting together Marzen recipe. Bath that I'm goint to made will be 2x12l. One will be fermented with my liquid yeast:
, second will be done with SafLager S-23 (I've got harvested like 0.4l from my previous lager).
Fermentation concept with two iSpindels surrounding temp ~13-14C bucket to bucket for two weeks (or longer if needed) 2 days in 18C. Lagering for 3-4 weeks in ~5C.
Water - desitlled with 1.2g Epsom, 1.2 NaCl, 3.6g CaCl - this is from my local forum - can someone comment? In theory this makes kickass german beers.
Mashing 3l/kg of malt with PH adjustment with phosphoric acid down to 5.2. Fly sparge.
Grain bill:
3.5kg Munich malt,
1.5kg Pilsen,
1kg Vienna,
Mashing:
62C for 30'
72C for 30'
78 - 10' mashout

Single bittering hop - Perle 5.5%AA 40g for 50' for 22IBU.

Comments, suggestions welcome.
 

AlexKay

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Looks good!

Some tweaks:
  • I'd probably use a little more Vienna and a little less Munich. Maybe 2/2/2?
  • You're a little low on sulfate, and I'd probably add 1.2 g of gypsum alongside what you've got. The extra calcium won't hurt anything, too.
  • It's probably (ok, definitely) not authentic, but I like 3-5% Simpsons DRC in a Marzen. You could use a British medium crystal instead. Or you could ignore this.
 

Jack Arandir

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Looks good. I think it'll make a fantastic beer.

* To my taste, there can be too much Munich in a Märzen. I tried 80% Munich and 20% Pilsner and it was too much. I liked 45/55 much better. My doppelbock was 60% Munich (Munich 1 plus dark Munich) 40% Pilsner and it was incredible. Again, it's personal preference. I'm not saying to change it. I'm just saying Munich is potent stuff.

* Which maltster will you use? It makes a huge difference. I don't like Weyermann Pilsner at all (tastes grainy to me), but I love Weyermann Bohemian Floor-Malted Pilsner. I've heard great things about Bestmalz but I haven't yet opened the sack I have. For the Vienna, I found Weyermann Barke Vienna is much tastier than the regular Vienna.

* No decoction? The Germans swear by it. If you're bothering with a multistep mash you may consider it.

* I've never used S-23 before, so I have no idea how it turns out. A quick glance at the website says it's best for fruity and hoppy lagers, which I don't think is what you're going for. My personal favorite lager yeast is WY2308 Munich Lager -- it has rich malty backbone, great complexity (better than W34/70), and a crisp finish. That said, tasters couldn't tell the difference between S-23 and W34/70, so it may not matter.

Great recipe, and good luck brewing! I'm especially interested in the comparison between the two yeasts. Let us know how it turns out.
 
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Kickass

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I like doing equal parts Munich, Vienna and Pilsen. A little Melanoiden (spelling?) malt is optional if you want to add a little sweetness or emulate a decoction mash. Sometimes I add some, sometimes I don’t.
 
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kaziel

kaziel

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Which maltster will you use? It makes a huge difference. I don't like Weyermann Pilsner at all (tastes grainy to me), but I love Weyermann Bohemian Floor-Malted Pilsner. I've heard great things about Bestmalz but I haven't yet opened the sack I have.
All Bestmalz but also for first time. Till now I was only using local (Viking) malts.
* I've never used S-23 before, so I have no idea how it turns out.
I've just started to do Lagers this year. I've used S23 for Light American Lager - beer was good but my friend noticed "green apple" smell in one bottle. I've also made Dark Czech Lager with those and it was very good without any off flavours.

Maybe 2/2/2?

I like doing equal parts Munich, Vienna and Pilsen.
So Maybe I will stick with 2/2/2 and add 0.5kg Melanoidin Malt (decoction substitute). Need to adjust to fit 15l buckets ~3l of headroom.

I hope I will find some time before xmas to make this batch, having unheated garage and basement and also counting on somehow managing the temps.
Also whirlflock tablet for clarity I'm also thinking about adding pure vitamin C like 1.5g for 30l to prolong shelf life.
Thanks for all answers so far.
 

pvtpublic

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I'm not saying to change it. I'm just saying Munich is potent stuff.
Yeah, a light hand on the Munich is wise. If you've had an Ayinger, Paulaner, etc. and have one next to an American version, you'll notice the American usually has too much and sometimes has crystal malt. It's just not right, it needs to be smooth and easy drinking.
* No decoction? The Germans swear by it. If you're bothering with a multistep mash you may consider it.
A step mash can work just fine. Shred Monk, a brewery in my town, makes a fine example of a German Pils. I swear it's almost straight out of Germany, and that's what they do. Now, it also comes down to what methods you have available. In my case, I can't directly heat my mash tun, so it's either step infusion or decoction (when I choose to do step mash). Well, I only have so much room in my mash tun as well, so it's decoction for me.
 

Pie11

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My preference for marzen grain bill is:
50% munich ii.
25% pils.
25% vienna.
The usage of good quality fresh malt is mandatory.
Weyermann or maltrie du chateau are the best for those beers.
Use 2 step decotion even if you need more 40 miutes, and avoid melano (that has an hint of harshness, it's don't fit very well in marzen)
 

AlexKay

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Whatever you do, please do not add crystal.

Whenever an American adds crystal to their German beer and still calls it German, a cute puppy in Germany dies.
Not trying to troll, genuinely curious as to the answer.

A quick survey of German maltsters shows they make and sell crystal malt: Weyermann (12 varieties), BestMalz (9), Ireks (7), Avangard (2). Are they really all intended for export only, or are there some types echt-German beers that use them?
 

Miraculix

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Not trying to troll, genuinely curious as to the answer.

A quick survey of German maltsters shows they make and sell crystal malt: Weyermann (12 varieties), BestMalz (9), Ireks (7), Avangard (2). Are they really all intended for export only, or are there some types echt-German beers that use them?
They sell it to "craft" beer breweries, home-brewers and export it. There are no German styles that include crystal traditionally.
 

AlexKay

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They sell it to "craft" beer breweries, home-brewers and export it. There are no German styles that include crystal traditionally.
Altbier, maybe?

I am going to have to check my copy of Kunze when I get home, to see what he says on the topic.

Also, does anyone know this book, "Historic German and Austrian Beers for the Home Brewer" (amazon link) This discussion has made me curious...
 

Pie11

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There is some german beer that use caramel malt: albier uses "biscuit" caramel malt, carahell is done for helles.

Not all german beers are indexed by bjcp.
Personally I don't see any caramel malt in Marzen or other bayern (bavarian) old traditional styles as dunkel or marzen.
Decotion adds some sweetness, a light caramel malt (with also a biscuit/aroma malt) can be used for simulate this process.
 

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A very well thought out recipe.
Why I think so?
First: the choise of S-23. From the dry yeasts, it's the best option for amber malty styles exactly like this one. No Pilsnery crispness (W34/70 for that) is needed in a Maerzen, neither Bocky strength (S-189 for strong beers as it tackles high alcohol better).
Second: I see zero style-inappropriate Crystals in your grist that plague much of modern "Maerzen" recipes. There's no place for Crystal malts in a real Maerzen.
Third: no schitloads of catty hops late/dry hopping, just a single bittering hop addition, exactly what most of historical Maerzens had.
You'll have a great, true to the style Maerzen.
The proportions of Pilsner to Wiener to Munich are not much important in my opinion, I think you adjust them solely up to your taste.

I'm also thinking about adding pure vitamin C like 1.5g for 30l to prolong shelf life
How long exactly do you need to prolong the shelf life for? If for less than a year then I think you're OK without adding any preservatives. My last year's Maerzen was brewed in December and bottled in March. I drank the last bottle of the batch in October. The only aging effect I noticed was a reduced hoppiness (which I welcomed) and increased Melanoidin flavour notes (which I welcomed even more).
 
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AlexKay

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They sell it to "craft" beer breweries, home-brewers and export it. There are no German styles that include crystal traditionally.
For what it's worth, Kunze does have a section on caramel malts, and says Carahell is an ingredient for festbier, and darker caramel malts for altbier.

And the German maltsters' websites say that their caramel malts are to be used in German styles. Here is Bestmalz's (click on the "Anwendung" tab); Weyermann's says something similar here.
 

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The Gulper
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decoction substitute
Despite the widespread myth, Melanoidin Malt isn't a substitution for decoction, even chemically. It's an ingredient in its own right, with a different impact on the beer. The main contribution of decoction isn't just adding Melanoidin compounds (which MelanoMalt adds much more effectively) but the extraction of more fermentable and unfermentable substances and tannins.
If anything, Melanoidin Malt is a substitution for Munchner Malt (1:5) rather than for decoction as it contains same compounds as MuMalt (melanoidins) but doesn't produce the compounds that a decoction brings about with it.
You don't need Melano Malt in Maerzen. Maybe, in modern Festbier where you want the beer to retain a low colour while still having that Munich flavour. 4% of Melano will give approximately the same intensity of flavour as 20% of Munich while keeping the colour lower.
 

Jocky

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Looking at your recipe, there's plenty of variation in how you can brew Marzen, and I think yours looks great. There's no need for caramel or roasted malts, and certainly no need for melanoiden/decoction unless you really want that from your beer.

What brewing Marzen taught me was that the end result can vary greatly depending upon the source of the malt - one maltster's Munich is not the same as another's. I think the Weyermann Barke Munich/Vienna/Pils are amazing, but try whatever you want to use and adjust if you make it again in the future.

For yeast I don't have any experience with S-23, but it reads like the right profile, I definitely wouldn't use W37/70. The other dry option would be S-189.

Water looks about right - I just add gypsum and CaCl in a 1:3 ratio to get 50ppm Calcium in the mash.

I scored 47/50 and came second Best in Show at a 300 entry competition with this recipe: Winner Winner Märzen Dinner - London Amateur Brewers Wiki
... although for me the beer was too intensely malty using WLP833. I previously used a Wyeast Oktoberfest blend and it was much more to my taste, although I could be tempted to bin the Caramunich in future too.

Good luck!
 
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kaziel

kaziel

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I'm more and more convinced into doing decoction. Amount of info on the web is overwhelming :(.
For sure I will like to do it but maybe not this time.
no need for melanoiden/decoction unless you really want that from your beer.
Maybe for next batch (Dunkel Weizen).
I'm also wondering about mash thickness for decoction - is 3l/1kg is ok?
To avoid scorching maybe I will use big aluminum pot to do water batch for smaller pot with grain - what do you think.
For this time i will stick with 3 malts and no Vit C.
Thank everybody for comments and suggestions.
 

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I'm also wondering about mash thickness for decoction - is 3l/1kg is ok?
No less than that. German traditional mashes are thin primarily for wort manageability reasons (as opposed to any flavour or extraction considerations): when the mash is thin, the separation of thick decoction is easier, and more amylase enzymes extracted into the liquor avoid being deactivated by the boil.

I'd say a Wheat Beer isn't the best testing style for the first decoction experience. With a half of the grist husksless, you'll miss an important flavour contribution: the polyphenols and tannins extracted from the husks, so you may underappreciate the effect of your first decoction and join the ranks of the decoction deniers on this board.
 
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I think the Weyermann Barke Munich/Vienna/Pils are amazing
Absolutely.
And please don't even try Viking Munich for any German malty style. Flavourwise, it's drastically different from Weyermann (or Bestmalz, or Ireks, or Stamag, or even Chateau) Munich, being less sweet and way less flavourful than those. Maybe it's good for American darker beers and makes a decent substitution for Briess or what, idk, but it just tastes differently from the rest of European Munich malts.
 

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For what it's worth, Kunze does have a section on caramel malts, and says Carahell is an ingredient for festbier, and darker caramel malts for altbier.

And the German maltsters' websites say that their caramel malts are to be used in Geran styles. Here is Bestmalz's (click on the "Anwendung" tab); Weyermann's says something similar here.
Sales people say what sells, not what's necessarily true.

Please do not forget that I said traditionally. I have no idea what Kunze refers to, but traditionally, there was no crystal malt in Germany. And that was the case, because it was not needed to brew great beer.
 

Jocky

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I'm more and more convinced into doing decoction. Amount of info on the web is overwhelming :(.
For sure I will like to do it but maybe not this time.

Maybe for next batch (Dunkel Weizen).
I'm also wondering about mash thickness for decoction - is 3l/1kg is ok?
To avoid scorching maybe I will use big aluminum pot to do water batch for smaller pot with grain - what do you think.
For this time i will stick with 3 malts and no Vit C.
Thank everybody for comments and suggestions.

Decoction is an interesting brewing experience, and getting it right takes a bit of practice. It also adds a distinct character to your beer when you do multiple decoctions or a long single one. I'd recommend doing it to a beer you are practiced at brewing so you get to understand the difference it has made.

My biggest tip for making your life easier with decoction is to just do your normal mash (and any steps you want) first, and then once that is done you then pull out the grain and boil that for anything from 15 to 45 minutes.

I recommend this because on a home brew scale it's really hard to hit the mash steps correctly using the traditional decoction process of decocting part of the grain then mixing it back into the main mash. You get all of the decoction flavour and other benefits from boiling the grain, and the intensity varies by the amount of time you boil it for, so it's just easier (for me) to do the grain boiling after the main mash, instead of making it part of the mash process.

I hope that makes sense!
 
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kaziel

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My biggest tip for making your life easier with decoction is to just do your normal mash (and any steps you want) first, and then once that is done you then pull out the grain and boil that for anything from 15 to 45 minutes.
Love it!!

So i can do 62C -30', 72C - 30' take 1/3 of volume boil it for 30' and return it back to reach mash out and do fly sparge? I like this idea. An to make it idiot (me) proof I will do it in bigger pot filled with water to avoid scorching or stir like crazy.
 

Jocky

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Love it!!

So i can do 62C -30', 72C - 30' take 1/3 of volume boil it for 30' and return it back to reach mash out and do fly sparge?

Yep. Although traditionally you'd take 1/3 volume of the mash, for me that turns out to be most of the grain.

An to make it idiot (me) proof I will do it in bigger pot filled with water to avoid scorching or stir like crazy.

Pot with water? No - you don't add any extra water to a decoction.

Decoction is literally taking grain out from the mash with a strainer so you have only a little liquid, and then boiling that as it is! It sounds crazy, and it is. As the grain gets to boiling it actually releases some liquid.

Stir lots, don't heat it too hard and you shouldn't get any scorching.

Watch this:

 
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kaziel

kaziel

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Pot with water? No - you don't add any extra water to a decoction.
No bigger pot with water and into that pot I will pus smaller vessel with decocted part - like a water bath type of thing.
Stir lots, don't heat it too hard and you shouldn't get any scorching.
My pot is having really thin bottom. Thanks for all the tips - I feel educated now.
 

Jocky

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I don't think it'll get hot enough doing it in a water bath. That grain really needs to boil!

As you say, a thick bottomed pot really helps as it spreads out the heat evenly.

Good luck!
 

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Love it!!

So i can do 62C -30', 72C - 30' take 1/3 of volume boil it for 30' and return it back to reach mash out and do fly sparge? I like this idea. An to make it idiot (me) proof I will do it in bigger pot filled with water to avoid scorching or stir like crazy.
If you have a direct heated MLT there is a way to decoct exclusively in only the MLT with out removing grist or a second vessel.
 

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The Gulper
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Although traditionally you'd take 1/3 volume of the mash,
Not exactly so. Traditionally, you take 1/3 not of the whole mash but 1/3 of either Dickmaische / Thick Mash (when the decoction is employed to step up the temperature between any two steps, e.g. 55C to 63C, or 63C to 72C) or 1/3 of Dünnmaische / Thin Mash (you do this with the last decoction when the next step is mashout). There are other options too, but we're talkin about the traditional schedule.


My biggest tip for making your life easier with decoction is to just do your normal mash (and any steps you want) first, and then once that is done you then pull out the grain and boil that for anything from 15 to 45 minutes.
A complex subject. More complex than it appears to be.
I would not recommend this risky method to the first-timers. Each decoction extracts into the solution lot of remaining additional unconverted starch molecules which otherwise could not have been extracted without boiling. Here lies the reason behind the high efficiency you get with decoctions. If you do, as you suggest, this "Simple Mash-Out Thick Mash Decoction" with no saccharification steps afterwards, all that additional raw unconverted starch goes into the fermenter. It might be converted during the Lautering process but you have an extremely narrow time and temp window to achieve this.

There was a discussion exactly on this subject some time before, where I cited a self-translated excerpt from the classic book by the recently late Ludwig Narziß (R. I. P.) where he acknowledges that such a method is possible, though risky because of the probability of underconversion. I was citing it exactly in support of the method you suggest here. I employed the method 10 or more times on my decocted Lagers. Then I did an Iodine test on my next "Simplified Decoction" batch prior to fermentation (usually I never do). The sample came out blue. Lesson learned.

My humble suggestion is avoiding uncommon grains (like wheat) or experimental techniques (like the tip above) when you're just starting to master your decoction skills. Do it the old boring traditional way for several times at least. Use Barley-only grist and employ at least a single decoction step, preferrably between 63 and 72C. See the results, make your conclusions. Then you are free to move further and apply whatever shortcuts and innovations you fancy.
With the old boring method, you get a guaranteed problem-free conversion. With experiments, you risk more than you may think you've gained.
 
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Jocky

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Not exactly so. Traditionally, you take 1/3 not of the whole mash but 1/3 of either Dickmaische / Thick Mash (when the decoction is employed to step up the temperature between any two steps, e.g. 55C to 63C, or 63C to 72C) or 1/3 of Dünnmaische / Thin Mash (you do this with the last decoction when the next step is mashout). There are other options too, but we're talkin about the traditional schedule.



A complex subject. More complex than it appears to be.
I would not recommend this risky method to the first-timers. Each decoction extracts into the solution lot of remaining additional unconverted starch molecules which otherwise could not have been extracted without boiling. Here lies the reason behind the high efficiency you get with decoctions. If you do, as you suggest, this "Simple Mash-Out Thick Mash Decoction" with no saccharification steps afterwards, all that additional raw unconverted starch goes into the fermenter. It might be converted during the Lautering process but you have an extremely narrow time and temp window to achieve this.

There was a discussion exactly on this subject some time before, where I cited a self-translated excerpt from the classic book by the recently late Ludwig Narziß (R. I. P.) where he acknowledges that such a method is possible, though risky because of the probability of underconversion. I was citing it exactly in support of the method you suggest here. I employed the method 10 or more times on my decocted Lagers. Then I did an Iodine test on my next "Simplified Decoction" batch prior to fermentation (usually I never do). The sample came out blue. Lesson learned.

My humble suggestion is avoiding uncommon grains (like wheat) or experimental techniques (like the tip above) when you're just starting to master your decoction skills. Do it the old boring traditional way for several times at least. Use Barley-only grist and employ at least a single decoction step, preferrably between 63 and 72C. See the results, make your conclusions. Then you are free to move further and apply whatever shortcuts and innovations you fancy.
With the old boring method, you get a guaranteed problem-free conversion. With experiments, you risk more than you may think you've gained.
That’s very interesting, and worth thinking about.
 
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kaziel

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So this time (for this batch) I will skip decoction. Maybe I will do it for the first time for 10l batch. Thanks again for lot of information passed in very open and friendly way.
 

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Yep, the best style for learning the impact of your first decoction is something light in colour and strength, like a Pilsener or a Helles. There's just too much things already going in Maerzen to distinguish the effects of decoction from the effects of the choise of malts or the process.
In light beers, there's less to distract you from the signature features that decoction brings about, which are very sligh and peculiar tannic tanginess, fuller body, a touch of Melanoidin, and the proverbial "That German Twang".
 
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kaziel

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Yep, the best style for learning the impact of your first decoction is something light in colour and strength, like a Pilsener or a Helles. There's just too much things already going in Maerzen to distinguish the effects of decoction from the effects of the choise of malts or the process.
In light beers, there's less to distract you from the signature features that decoction brings about, which are very sligh and peculiar tannic tanginess, fuller body, a touch of Melanoidin, and the proverbial "That German Twang".
Thank you, I wanted to ask and also did a research on the web and found exactly those two styles. Next batch I will do pilsner 10-15l batch and try decoction in Hoch Kurz mode(spelling). Another problem is that I'm not a big "sensoric" and don't know what to expect from decoction taste/smell.
 

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It seems I'm not too much of a sensoric too (at least when I read others' beer tasting notes, I don't taste or smell from my beers even half of what they are reporting for theirs) still I'm sure I'm able to distinguish the decoction flavour and body impact, and I think it improves my Lagers immensely. Actually, from many variuos styles I brew Lagers come out the best.
Just try it yourself!
 
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kaziel

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It seems I'm not too much of a sensoric too (at least when I read others' beer tasting notes, I don't taste or smell from my beers even half of what they are reporting for theirs)
Actually good to hear - I was thinking that's just me 😓
I want to try as usual two beers in one sitting - one same repecie with and 2nd one without decoction. Same grain bill and yeast.
Got fair amount of S-23 in fridge so maybe I will use those for simple Pils Lager.
Any quick idea how to make one ~20 liters batch and split that in two - one part for decoction? Or should I make 2 separate mashes? Doing two separate batches isn't a problem but I'm afraid that to mane things will varying in that way.
 

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That's great you have some S-23, it's a great yeast. Just be wise about choosing your style: S-23 is a pretty estery yeast as far as Lager yeasts go (no comparison to the Ale yeast ester levels though), so a German or Scandinavian Lager brewed with S-23 most likely will come out as a faulty one (hence the bad rap S-23 gets in the interwebs). S-23 is ideal not for German but for Austrian, Czech and Polish Lagers which are traditionally a bit more estery than German. Brew a Wiener, a Budweiser or a Zywiec with it (I'm not touching the subject of Porter Baltycki or Boehmisches Dunkles, as we're talking about light beers now). With those styles, you'll be spot on.

If you are set on making a split batch - a decocted one and an infused one - I'd suggest mashing them in separately and simultaneously. I've done that, it's not too hard to do. Well, you could mash them in both together at 38C or 55C, but then you'll have to split them equally for the decoction anyway, which will bring an added hassle. What I did, was mashing my grains in simultaneously in two mashtuns and keeping the infusion mash steps' lengths equal to the time it took the decoction part to be heated and boiled. As a result, I got some unusually long step rests for my infusion mash part (like 1 hour at 55C, 1.30 hour at 62C etc.) but this aspect is known and discussed in German brewing literature, the common thinking is that it's OK.
I would say I tasted a tangible difference between my split batches, that's why I'm a strong believer in the virtues of the good old decoction. You may find people that deny the difference, some of them well-experienced brewers, but I believe most of them probably have never tried a split batch.
 

Protos

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Great yeasts too.
M76 for everything Bawarian - Helles, Dunkel, the fuller and sweeter Bavarian Pilsner, Festbier, Oktoberfest and all kinds of Bocks - and W34 (which is essentially closer to the Danish Carlsberg yeast rather than to any German yeast) goes for Northern German styles like the hoppy Jever and Dortmunder, and also for Dutch, Belgian, Scandinavian, English and American Lagers (though there's a rising trend to brew classic American Lagers with S-23).
 

TimLa

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Sales people say what sells, not what's necessarily true.

Please do not forget that I said traditionally. I have no idea what Kunze refers to, but traditionally, there was no crystal malt in Germany. And that was the case, because it was not needed to brew great beer.
I was USAF stationed in Germany (Wurzburg) for three years in the late 80's, where I was exposed to (and drank a lot of) real beer. Back stateside, got very into homebrew, for obvious reasons.. The only beer recipes I've seen or made since then that used crystal malt were Arrogant Bastard clones and a few stouts, and they used very little of it. Having consumed a large amount of Marzen at Oktoberfest, I'm pretty sure there is no crystal in there.

BTW, my dad wrote and sold radio and tv advertising; the word 'truth' is not in their (business) vocabulary.
 
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kaziel

kaziel

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Hello and Happy New Year!!!
I did this batch - but not as intended. I've didn't manage to do split batch (due to several reasons). All thing landed in one fermenter with Polish liquidae Lager Yeast (1.2L starter). Two step mashing 62C ish and 72C (and mashout).
3xPilsner, Vienna, Munich - 1.8kg
0.1kg Carafa II
I've run out of German hops and have to add 10g of Nugget (to 20g of Perle).
Color seems to be dark (to dark?).
Due to very hot January (16C in where I am) it's hard to keep it ~10C (which was my target). I'm still below 15C which is also in range (8-15) for this particular yeast.
Need to calibrate iSpindle with this fance polynomial thing - SG was 13BLG (hydrometer). As usual I took FFT sample.
Since right now this is fermenting close to 15C - should I do Diacetyl rest ~17/18C?
Anyway this was a fun to brew and I'm glad I did it. Next I will make with small batch (10L) of Vienna Lager with same yeast or S23 and I will try decoction.
 

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Jocky

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I’d drop the carafa II next time as all it’ll really be adding is colour - if you’re missing some colour/malt character I’d just bump up the Munich.

I’d always recommend a diacetyl test towards the end of fermentation when you’re 3/4 of the way done, just let it free rise rather than heating it.
 
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