Marshmallow Bochet Experiment

[MightyMosin]

Two months ago I started a mead that uses a Marshmallow root tea along with a Cacao Nib tea along with some honey Bochet'd. I used the Travis Blount-Elliott nutrient method on this on in place of my usual TOSNA protocol. The honey on this was calculated out for a 12% ABV mead.

This sucker fully fermented in 5 days and I needed to add my final nutrients early to get them in while it was at about 7.5% ABV. It was in a hurry, probably because the caramelized honey had the overall temperature above 80F and the yeast liked that.

The Marshmallow root tea has a distinct aroma and while it didn't carry through fermentation, you can taste it if you had smelled it prior to fermentation... nothing offensive, just subtly distinct. While the cacao probably contributed to the final flavor it likely needed to be doubled. Out of fermentation it was nothing special...it was actually pretty disappointing though that isn't surprising for a newly fermented 12% mead.

After about 6 weeks from start, I back sweetened it and it became a completely different thing. This was now a tasty mead that my friend urged me to not mess with anymore and just bottle it.
Screw that.
This went into an oak barrel that previously held whiskey. I took a sample after about 9 days and it has vastly improved. I plan on leaving it about another ~3 months with periodic tasting along the way. The only heat that it has is from the whiskey.

I have ordered some more ingredients to make another batch along with some changes that I think will improve it. That will go into the barrel as soon as this one comes out. When I bottle, this will go into 200ml or 375ml bottles so I will have an easier time sharing this and not giving away too much at a time in 750ml bottles.

All in all, I have to say that this is one of my best tasting meads. Part of that is the ingredients that I used, as you won't get good results from crap ingredients, but I think more of it comes down to process and nutrients. I think proper 02 injection at the beginning along with another 02 dosing 18 hours after yeast pitch and the nutrients made the big difference. It's kind of funny to say that one of my best tasting meads will be changed on the next iteration, but I think I can make it better instead of just reproducing what I have already done.

I'm not posting "recipe" details at this point as I do believe that I can make a better version and that would probably be better to give back to the group.

 

[Dan O]

Screw that

I love it! Ever the experimental scientific brewer/mead maker, we have the same line of thinking

 

[Ty520]

Two months ago I started a mead that uses a Marshmallow root tea along with a Cacao Nib tea along with some honey Bochet'd. I used the Travis Blount-Elliott nutrient method on this on in place of my usual TOSNA protocol. The honey on this was calculated out for a 12% ABV mead.

This sucker fully fermented in 5 days and I needed to add my final nutrients early to get them in while it was at about 7.5% ABV. It was in a hurry, probably because the caramelized honey had the overall temperature above 80F and the yeast liked that.

The Marshmallow root tea has a distinct aroma and while it didn't carry through fermentation, you can taste it if you had smelled it prior to fermentation... nothing offensive, just subtly distinct. While the cacao probably contributed to the final flavor it likely needed to be doubled. Out of fermentation it was nothing special...it was actually pretty disappointing though that isn't surprising for a newly fermented 12% mead.

After about 6 weeks from start, I back sweetened it and it became a completely different thing. This was now a tasty mead that my friend urged me to not mess with anymore and just bottle it.
Screw that.
This went into an oak barrel that previously held whiskey. I took a sample after about 9 days and it has vastly improved. I plan on leaving it about another ~3 months with periodic tasting along the way. The only heat that it has is from the whiskey.

I have ordered some more ingredients to make another batch along with some changes that I think will improve it. That will go into the barrel as soon as this one comes out. When I bottle, this will go into 200ml or 375ml bottles so I will have an easier time sharing this and not giving away too much at a time in 750ml bottles.

All in all, I have to say that this is one of my best tasting meads. Part of that is the ingredients that I used, as you won't get good results from crap ingredients, but I think more of it comes down to process and nutrients. I think proper 02 injection at the beginning along with another 02 dosing 18 hours after yeast pitch and the nutrients made the big difference. It's kind of funny to say that one of my best tasting meads will be changed on the next iteration, but I think I can make it better instead of just reproducing what I have already done.

I'm not posting "recipe" details at this point as I do believe that I can make a better version and that would probably be better to give back to the group.

any flavor/bouquet notes?

i've heard marsh mallow has high mucilage - was that an issue?

i often note to others - my root beer mead being a prime example - that it can be difficult to impossible to detect the identity of a spice in a dry metheglin (my root beer mead taste horrid and is impossible to dissect when dry); it is only when back sweetened that it is elevated to something identifiable (and enjoyable)

was that the case with the marsh mallow root? I've never used it, and am curious how it presents itself

 

[Raptor99]

@MightyMosin I'm curious as to why you decided to try marshmallow. It is often used as a medicinal herb, and meads in the middle ages were often made for medicinal purposes. I just started some marshmallow seeds, so I'm going to try to grow my own marshmallow root. So I am following your experiment with interest.

 

[MightyMosin]

any flavor/bouquet notes?

i've heard marsh mallow has high mucilage - was that an issue?

i often note to others - my root beer mead being a prime example - that it can be difficult to impossible to detect the identity of a spice in a dry metheglin (my root beer mead taste horrid and is impossible to dissect when dry); it is only when back sweetened that it is elevated to something identifiable (and enjoyable)

was that the case with the marsh mallow root? I've never used it, and am curious how it presents itself

In some ways it is like a Sauterne wine with the aroma; a bit floral and I used K1-V1116 at lower ambient temperatures to try and enhance the ester production. I was quite bummed when it fermented so fast as I was hoping to get more esters out of the yeast. After the fact, I realize that I should have sanitized a few frozen water bottles and dropped them into the must to bring down its temperature.

I'm expecting that the Marshmallow root tea aroma will subside to the point that it is well blended. To be fair, I can only identify it because I smelled the cold steeped tea. I used some Meadowfoam in the back sweeting to and that flavor carried through pretty well. The back sweeting was certainly needed to help bring it all together.

It never presented as viscous, though that may be based on the water to root ratio.

@MightyMosin I'm curious as to why you decided to try marshmallow. It is often used as a medicinal herb, and meads in the middle ages were often made for medicinal purposes. I just started some marshmallow seeds, so I'm going to try to grow my own marshmallow root. So I am following your experiment with interest.

I had never known that it existed. Once I found out, I just had to give it a try.

 

[MightyMosin]

This sucker fully fermented in 5 days and I needed to add my final nutrients early to get them in while it was at about 7.5% ABV. It was in a hurry, probably because the caramelized honey had the overall temperature above 80F and the yeast liked that.

I started another modified batch of this 5 days ago and it will be done fermenting by this evening. This batch I used sanitized frozen water bottles to drop the temperature after the yeast were going (~14 hours after pitch) and I did that again at its first feeding to keep the temperature low. I was trying to keep it in the low 60's and I mostly succeeded.

The brew bucket was kept in an insulated bag with frozen bottles as well. Even with the intermittent help of the frozen water bottles the fermentation activity of this is very similar to the first batch and will have that 12% ABV done in 5 days. At ~48 hours it was almost at the 1/3 break and at the scheduled 72 hour feeding it received the rest of the nutrients as it was well past the 1/3 sugar break but not far enough along to prevent nutrient uptake.

This was an OG of 1.091 and the nutrient schedule I used isn't completely different from TOSNA though it calls for more yeast, higher Go-Ferm and use of DAP in the last 2 feedings. TOSNA is the right most column.

Go-Ferm	18.75 grams	11.3 grams
water to dilute Go-Ferm	375 ml	226 grams
Yeast needed	15 grams	10 grams
24 & 48 hour nutrient addition	5.1g Ferm-O	5.9 gram
72 hour & 1/3 break	5.7g Ferm-K and 2.15g DAP	Each of 4 feedings

 

[MightyMosin]

My original batch has been in an oak barrel, that originally contained whiskey, for 6 weeks now.

That barrel had to sit a while before I was ready to use it and to keep the oak from drying out, I added ~2L of Costco Scotch to it and periodically rotated the barrel and stood it on the barrel ends. This kept it from developing leaks. It was thirsty and I only got about 750ml back out of it.

I sampled some of this last night. Moderate vanilla aroma with a very subtle whiskey aroma. The marshmallow tea is there on the nose as well, but you might have to know the original aroma to pick it out. The aroma is also slightly floral with a hint of pepper and anise. Definitely a complex aroma.

The taste is hard to describe. It is very enjoyable with vanilla and a hint of the whiskey in the background. The back sweetening has balanced against the astringent. I'm not sure if I'll try anything with acids... that will wait until I'm ready to rack out of the barrel. The mouthfeel is nice and coats the palate nicely; likely from the tea made from the root as that is a bit viscous.

One funny thing is that right out of the primary it smelled reminiscent of a lager. No beer yeast was used. The second batch that I recently racked has the same lager-ish aroma.

 

[MightyMosin]

Update: First batch
This sucker fermented in about 6 days... all 12% of it. About 1 month later I racked, stabilized and back sweetened it. 10 days later, I added some more honey as the tasting told me that it was needed. This was then put into an oak barrel that previously help whiskey. This same barrel was maintained with ~1.5L Costco Scotch while waiting for the mead to be ready to go into it. The mead sat in there for 2 months.
A total of 4 months from yeast pitch to racking out of the barrel. I submitted this mead to a local County Fair and I received a Silver medal on this mead.

Update: Second batch
This fermented all 12.3% in ~8 days. It went from 1.094 to 1.014 in 4 days... the rest is a but of approximating as I didn't get to it again for another 5 days. In the first batch I didn't taste any of the Cacao Nibs I used, though I'm guessing it provided some of the character. In this batch I doubled the amount of Cacao Nibs from the first batch... though when done fermenting I can't say that I could taste any of their influence, though I increased the amount and the roast time; Hat tip to @Dan O .
This went into the oak barrel after about 1 month, replacing the prior batch. It has been in the barrel about 1.5 months and I have now tried it. There is a nice vanilla taste in there as well as the slight lager-ish taste. That lager flavor is surely fading and surprisingly, the cacao nibs has decided to show up. If that flavor increases more, I may need to add a bit more Meadowfoam honey to increase the marshmallow character.

This batch is really missing that whiskey enhancement that the first batch received from the barrel. It makes me consider adding some of that whiskey I pulled out back into the barrel to increase that flavor some. It has been in the barrel for ~1.5 months and I'm guessing about another month to get those integrated flavors and to allow some more of (I hope) the whiskey flavor tom work its way into the mix.

Summary:
The first batch came out very nicely with the benefit of the whiskey barrel, yet I wonder how it would have been with more Cacao Nibs.
The second batch has more of that Cacao Nib flavor but is a bit lacking on the vanilla and whiskey enhancements... time may help with those.

My last ditch may be trying some blending experiments. That would have to come out exceptional for me to consider relegating the first batch to that... it did win me a Silver at 4 months old and I hope that bottling and sitting on it will yield some great results down the road as flavors work themselves together.

I'll update again when I think there is enough info again.

 

[Dan O]

Update: First batch
This sucker fermented in about 6 days... all 12% of it. About 1 month later I racked, stabilized and back sweetened it. 10 days later, I added some more honey as the tasting told me that it was needed. This was then put into an oak barrel that previously help whiskey. This same barrel was maintained with ~1.5L Costco Scotch while waiting for the mead to be ready to go into it. The mead sat in there for 2 months.
A total of 4 months from yeast pitch to racking out of the barrel. I submitted this mead to a local County Fair and I received a Silver medal on this mead.

Update: Second batch
This fermented all 12.3% in ~8 days. It went from 1.094 to 1.014 in 4 days... the rest is a but of approximating as I didn't get to it again for another 5 days. In the first batch I didn't taste any of the Cacao Nibs I used, though I'm guessing it provided some of the character. In this batch I doubled the amount of Cacao Nibs from the first batch... though when done fermenting I can't say that I could taste any of their influence, though I increased the amount and the roast time; Hat tip to @Dan O .
This went into the oak barrel after about 1 month, replacing the prior batch. It has been in the barrel about 1.5 months and I have now tried it. There is a nice vanilla taste in there as well as the slight lager-ish taste. That lager flavor is surely fading and surprisingly, the cacao nibs has decided to show up. If that flavor increases more, I may need to add a bit more Meadowfoam honey to increase the marshmallow character.

This batch is really missing that whiskey enhancement that the first batch received from the barrel. It makes me consider adding some of that whiskey I pulled out back into the barrel to increase that flavor some. It has been in the barrel for ~1.5 months and I'm guessing about another month to get those integrated flavors and to allow some more of (I hope) the whiskey flavor tom work its way into the mix.

Summary:
The first batch came out very nicely with the benefit of the whiskey barrel, yet I wonder how it would have been with more Cacao Nibs.
The second batch has more of that Cacao Nib flavor but is a bit lacking on the vanilla and whiskey enhancements... time may help with those.

My last ditch may be trying some blending experiments. That would have to come out exceptional for me to consider relegating the first batch to that... it did win me a Silver at 4 months old and I hope that bottling and sitting on it will yield some great results down the road as flavors work themselves together.

I'll update again when I think there is enough info again.

It sounds wonderful to sip on. My mead making is going to have to take a back seat for a while, though. The good thing is, I have plenty to carry me over until I start going full on again. Only one batch going right now, (Strawberry/ Raspberry/ Rose Hip/ Vanilla) which will be getting racked, stabilized, second round of fruit, along with the dried rose hips and the Ecuadorian tahitientis vanilla beans this weekend. Hopefully all my yeasts will stay viable until I can start again.

 

[MightyMosin]

Marshmallow Bochet
5 gallons
OG: 1.091 ~12% ABV

Estimated honey:
7.67Lb (7Lb 11oz). Clover, 4.00 Lb. Meadowfoam, & 1Lb. Buckwheat
Caramelize 2 Lb. Meadowfoam, 4 Lb. Clover Honey, and 1Lb Buckwheat, keeping it below max of 320F. I don't bochet the Meadowfoam anymore.

Yeast adjuncts used in primary:
Booster Blanc: 5 grams
Noblesse: 5 grams
Opti-White: 9.5 grams

Initial tea for batch:
~8 hours before brewing cold steep 5 cups ground marshmallow root in 5 liters cold water with 1.3g K-Meta. Coffee press liquid to fermenter. If kept in refrigerator, the K-Meta likely isn't needed to suppress wild yeast.

Boil 1 gallon water and turn off heat. Lightly coffee grind ~¾ cup toasted Cacao Nibs and steeped in 1 water for ~30 minutes. Let cool and place in refrigerator overnight. Rack liquid from under the floating fat cap.

Add ~1.2 gallon water to bring batch size up to 5 gallons.

10g of K1V-V116 yeast
Rehydrate with 12.6g Go-Ferm
24 & 48 hour yeast nutrient: 4.25g Fermaid-O
72 hour & 1/3 sugar break nutrient: 4.75g Fermaid-O, 3.25g DAP
48 or 72 hour and 1/3 break may be the same timing. If so, add both doses. If you aren't going to be checking, you might want to just front load all the nutrients.

O2 requirements are high so really whip O2 into must. Pure O2 is preferred. Added O2 at 12 and 24 hours.

Ferments in ~6 days based on past batches. Age in whiskey barrel.
Stabilize and back sweeten with Meadowfoam to your desired taste. I believe I took it to SG 1.014 or so (approx 2.1 Lb honey).

 

[Dan O]

Marshmallow Bochet
5 gallons
OG: 1.091 ~12% ABV

Estimated honey:
7.67Lb (7Lb 11oz). Clover, 4.00 Lb. Meadowfoam, & 1Lb. Buckwheat
Caramelize 2 Lb. Meadowfoam, 4 Lb. Clover Honey, and 1Lb Buckwheat, keeping it below max of 320F. I don't bochet the Meadowfoam anymore.

Yeast adjuncts used in primary:
Booster Blanc: 5 grams
Noblesse: 5 grams
Opti-White: 9.5 grams

Initial tea for batch:
~8 hours before brewing cold steep 5 cups ground marshmallow root in 5 liters cold water with 1.3g K-Meta. Coffee press liquid to fermenter. If kept in refrigerator, the K-Meta likely isn't needed to suppress wild yeast.

Boil 1 gallon water and turn off heat. Lightly coffee grind ~¾ cup toasted Cacao Nibs and steeped in 1 water for ~30 minutes. Let cool and place in refrigerator overnight. Rack liquid from under the floating fat cap.

Add ~1.2 gallon water to bring batch size up to 5 gallons.

10g of K1V-V116 yeast
Rehydrate with 12.6g Go-Ferm
24 & 48 hour yeast nutrient: 4.25g Fermaid-O
72 hour & 1/3 sugar break nutrient: 4.75g Fermaid-O, 3.25g DAP
72 hour and 1/3 break may be the same timing. If so add both doses.

O2 requirements are high so really whip O2 into must. Pure O2 is preferred. Added O2 at 12 and 24 hours.

Ferments in ~6 days based on past batches. Age in whiskey barrel.
Stabilize and back sweeten with Meadowfoam to your desired taste. I believe I took it to SG 1.014 or so.

Awesome!
Thanks for sharing!
Looking forward to trying this on a 1 gallon scale to see the flavor profile.

 

[MightyMosin]

My v3 of this is fermenting quite strongly.

I pitched yeast on 2/4 around 7:00 PM.

Nutrients added 2/5 around 6:00 PM.

2/6, the 2nd day after pitch and the 48 hour feeding, it was 3 points shy of the 1/3 break and it then got the rest of the nutrients and vodka into the airlock (previously empty).

It blew the airlock off at some point this morning. New sanitized bung and airlock on the fermenter and then isopropyl alcohol sprayed on the yeasty carboy mess to soak and then wiped up.

It should be done in another 3 or 4 days... Like I mentioned above, it's a fast fermenter.

 

[MightyMosin]

V3 of this went into a new to me Oak barrel.

This barrel previously held whiskey but had dried out a bit. This barrel was rinsed with some cool water and then almost boiling water to help swell the wood. The outside had plenty of boiling water poured over it with towels on it to help swell from the outside as well. After draining, the barrel was filled with ~4L of Costco whiskey to keep it conditioned while I waited for the Marshmallow Bochet batch to be ready as well as adding some more of the whiskey flavor back into the barrel.

The barrel had the whiskey in it for ~ 2 months and it was periodically stood on opposite barrel heads, rolled around, left in different angles of rotation to make sure that all parts of it had a chance to be in contact with the whiskey and for the wood to swell and be sealed up tight. Once the whiskey was racked out, I guess ~ 2L of the whiskey had been absorbed into the oak which will eventually flavor this mead.

This version is mostly similar to the recipe above but without any cacao nibs. I have an tincture that I will likely add after a few months once I have a bead on the flavor that I am getting out of the barrel. I don't want to add to it now while so many flavors will be in flux. This was back sweetened from 1.002 to 1.018 before going into the barrel.

 

[Raptor99]

Today I harvested some of my marshmallow root, so I just read through your comments again. I haven't tried a bochet yet. How do you think this would taste with un-borcheted honey?

I don't have any buckwheat honey, but I do have some tallow honey that has a fairly strong flavor. How do you think that would work in your recipe?

 

[MightyMosin]

I think it will be fine without the Bochet treatment, especially depending on where you end up on your back sweetening.

As you can tell by the weight, the Buckwheat is there to add some additional complexity to the overall flavor. As Buckwheat is a rough one to do as a traditional, I find that it does add character. I haven't used tallow honey but I would imagine that it or Mesquite might be a nice one to use in place of Buckwheat for a more complex flavor.

The shredded Marshmallow root has a distinct flavor that these are all trying to play off. That flavor will fade some once you back sweeten but it is there. Once you smell and try it, you'll know what I mean.

 

[MightyMosin]

I had posted this to another thread, but put it here to keep this one complete.

Racked my Marshmallow Mead v3 out of the barrel (~4.75 gallon) and did bench testing of a cacao nib tincture addition.

First thing to note is that the tincture added to the mouth feel with its viscosity. I almost started with a 10% addition...
I started at a 5% addition and quickly reduced to 2%.

The 5% wasn't really objectionable, but it destroyed the Marshmallow root flavor and that made it a problem.
The 2% was much better as the cacao dropped back so it wasn't a noticeable flavor but more of a supporting actor. I did a 1% test and this was more of what I was looking for.

A quick approximated calculation said I needed 174ml of the tincture to get to a 1% addition. I creeped up to my final by starting with 100ml. At 100ml the flavor was good but the cacao was not really present though the Marshmallow root was displaced a bit.

I added another 40 ml of the tincture which got me to ~.08% tincture added and tried again. This ended up where I decided to leave it for now. There was still the Marshmallow root flavor along with the Meadowfoam honey but the cacao was now a contributing flavor that wasn't entirely a stand out flavor on its own. I can always add more if needed, but that whole taking it out is a problem.

I added 1g K-Meta to the barrel and then racked everything back into a CO2 filled barrel and the plugged the bung hole up. I will revisit this in a few weeks to see how it has integrated after sitting for a bit. I'll decide after it sits if it needs any acid adjustments. Even at the ~.08% tincture addition there was a noticeable bump in the mouth feel of the drink. Sorry @Dan O that this wasn't ready for you to try with V1 and V2.

The biggest thing that I notice missing in this version is the influence from the whiskey barrel; I assume that the first two batches have extracted all of that from the barrel. I may end doing another bench test and possibly adding a slight amount of Bourbon or other whiskey to this, though it might be less than a .5%, based on what the other tincture added.

That mouth feel bump is nice and I can't wait for my vanilla tincture to be ready for playing with.

 

[Dan O]

Sorry @Dan O that this wasn't ready for you to try with V1 and V2.

I tried the Christmas mead. VERY nice! Perfectly balanced & the perfect sweetness. Well done.
I haven't had the chance to try the others yet, but hopefully this weekend I'll have an opportunity.

 

[MightyMosin]

I tried the Christmas mead. VERY nice! Perfectly balanced & the perfect sweetness. Well done.
I haven't had the chance to try the others yet, but hopefully this weekend I'll have an opportunity.

I'm glad you liked it. I have a few bottles left that I'll enjoy.

I still need to bottle my new version of it (which has come out more floral that that one) and start the next batch for the following year.

 

[Raptor99]

Your original recipe used 5 cups ground marshmallow root. I was wondering, was that measured before or after grinding? I'm trying to set up my initial test batch.

Thanks!

 

[MightyMosin]

That was after grinding... about 13 oz by weight

 

[Raptor99]

@MightyMosin Thanks!

 

[MightyMosin]

My v3 of this uses a cacao nib tincture in place of a steeped tea. See a few posts above.

I have a post here somewhere about that tincture; but it's toasted nibs soaked in vodka.

I tried it a few days ago out of the barrel. It's a completely different experience compared to my bench trial.

In my bench trial, I was balancing the cacao flavor against everything else without making the added flavor a standout ingredient.

While in the barrel, I assume from oven toasting the cacao, the mead has developed a smoky flavor that was completely unexpected .

This version now has a light smoky flavor that is akin to a light peated whisky or maybe a light mescal.

I must say that this is an unexpected triumph as far as accidental flavors go. I'll taste again in a couple weeks too see where it has gone... or maybe sooner to make sure it doesn't go somewhere too smoky.