March pump control question.

[Brewmoor]

Spent some time this weekend looking into the electric ball valves. I contacted a company in china that makes them. They are going to send me a sample for the unit price of the valve.

1/2" stainless 12v three wire design. It has a 10-15s open and close time. The unit price on these are $22. Minimium order is 100 peices.

If this works out as well as I hope it does I may order 100 and sell them on ebay. Maybe market them to home brewers. Seems like a good winter project..

I am going to set the valve up with a momentary on-off-on switch...so up will be open and down will be closed. should work out OK. Once the flow is set it should not have to be adjusted that often. During sparge and transfer should be the only times it needs adjustment.

 

[Brewmoor]

Here is a picture of the valve I ordered. Should have it in a week or two.

 

[bkloos]

Looks nice...

What is the operating voltage/draw of the valve? It is proportional, correct?

If so, a simple LM317 voltage reg curcuit would fit the bill, no?
I can whip one up for testing if you would like. I have all the pieces lying around from my DIY audio hobby...

PM me if you are interested.

BK

 

[Brewmoor]

Looks nice...

What is the operating voltage/draw of the valve? It is proportional, correct?

If so, a simple LM317 voltage reg curcuit would fit the bill, no?
I can whip one up for testing if you would like. I have all the pieces lying around from my DIY audio hobby...

PM me if you are interested.

BK

Thanks for the offer.

I already have a LM317 circuit built for my rig. I have thermometers that run on AAA. So I had to bring 12v down to 1.5v

The valves come in 220V/110V/24V/12V. I ordered the 12v model. It has an open response time of about 10s. It is not proportional. It is floating. It will hold in the last position it had power.

 

[Sawdustguy]

It has a 10-15s open and close time.

Thats an awful long time to open or close a valve. If your flow is 6 gallons per minute, at least a gallon could flow between the time you asked the valve to close and when it finishes closing.

 

[Brewmoor]

True, but the valve in a instance where that might be an issue will be only partially open. So the need to go from full open to close should not be an issue. There will also be a on off switch for the pump that can be utilized during this operation.

I will certainly need to do some testing. I should have the valve in about a week. I will post pictures and a video of the tests. I don't see it being a huge issue. I am hoping it should work out.

here is a link to the specs

http://alexhuang1981.en.ec21.com/Stainless_Steel_Electrical_Ball_Valve--3147186_3559716.html

After looking at the wiring config I ordered. I think I am looking at the wrong specs. I think the one they are sending me has a 5s open to close. Either way I think I can make it work.

 

[BrewBeemer]

True, but the valve in a instance where that might be an issue will be only partially open. So the need to go from full open to close should not be an issue. There will also be a on off switch for the pump that can be utilized during this operation.

I will certainly need to do some testing. I should have the valve in about a week. I will post pictures and a video of the tests. I don't see it being a huge issue. I am hoping it should work out.

here is a link to the specs

http://alexhuang1981.en.ec21.com/Stainless_Steel_Electrical_Ball_Valve--3147186_3559716.html

After looking at the wiring config I ordered. I think I am looking at the wrong specs. I think the one they are sending me has a 5s open to close. Either way I think I can make it work.

It sounds like the real deal just by the way they have the writing of their specs on the valve. Made in China that's a given.
I wonder if replacement parts will be availble 6 months from now?

 

[Brewmoor]

Yeah i was thinking about that too. MKC has been in business since 1962 manufacturing different types of things. This division that makes the valves has been around for a while too. So I am hoping they are legit. The unit price on the valve is $22. minimium order is 100 pieces.

Not sure how long it would take to sell 100 pieces but It could be worth setting up an ebay shop or something like that. I will make that decision after testing and seeing how they work. I have a friend that is already importing from china. I can use his shipping service and piggy back his shipments so It is worth looking at.

Anyway back on topic. They seem like they have a good operation. Here is another link I found about the division.

http://www.chinamkc.com/en_about.asp

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I am really excited to see how this turns out.

 

[Brewmoor]

Here is a video I found of a DIY servo valve. This might be good inspiration for someone who would like a DIY approach to valve control. This looks like it would be really easy to build. Should spark some ideas for people.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePLNV1mgJ4A&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

 

[Brewmoor]

Found another DIY valve design. This seems like a more solid design.

http://www.rasdoc.com/paul/rockets/ballvalve.html

Seems strange that all these designs come from rocket hobbyists. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby. I need to aspire to be on the moon. Instead of passout drunk dreaming about being on the moon.

 

[Brewmoor]

I received the valve from china. I updated the original post with a video. Check the first page.

 

[bkloos]

Very Nice! I could most certainly find a use for a few of those...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

That is pretty sweet. I see that being a cool toy for people. It would be great if you could somehow index the valve and control to show a percentage open readout...

 

[dozer4412]

Being unable to get response back from the valve about the percent open or closed is there a downside to having the pump run while the valve is fully closed? Would this damage the pump?

I’d been planning to go the PWM route with a DC pump, but this seems like it could be a better and less expensive solution, plus it’s easily adaptable to AC pumps. This is really cool. I might go with a proportional control value as I plan to use a LabJack to control the valve, and would really like to know the percentage the valve is open or closed.

If the open and close time is consistent it might be possible to accurately predict the percentage open. This is great, thank again for the write up and video.

 

[Brewmoor]

I think with a true proportional valve you would be able to predict the percentage open and close. You would be controlling the valve with a dial and pwm. So with a bit of testing in that situation you should be able to get the percentages.

As for the labjack. I suppose you would be using a PWM output from the labjack (I am not familiar with labjack). In that case. However the interface has you controlling that you could measure it out.

The valve I have is a floating control. I have a open button and a close button. When I let go of the button it stops. Not sure if it is accurate enough to rely on the open and close times for measurement.

If you are using a march pump or another magnetic head pump closing the valve while the motor is on will not harm it. In fact that is what it is made to do. The head slips so it does not damage the motor.

 

[Windsors]

Posted this in its own thread, but it is relevant here as to controlling a pump.

Got a control box for free from a friend that works for an institutional greenhouse contractor and among other electronics inside, it had a new, Telemechanique variable speed drive for an asynchronous motor. Here are a couple of links...

http://static.schneider-electric.us...ives/Altivar 11/ATV11 Drives/ATV11HU18M2U.jpg

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Motor Control/AC Drives/Altivar 11/VVDED302026US.pdf

Do any of the electronics experts on this board think this could be used to control pump speed ?

I am a little thrown off by the 3 phase that shows up in the specs. Do VFD's only work with 3 phase motors ?

Anything else that VFD could be used for ?

If it is useful, I can always see if there are any more available.

Thanks

Bill

 

[bbrally]

I was wondering how you found the action of the valve for controlling the flow of your pump. Have you found this to be a workable solution?

How fast is full closed to full open?

Also did you order a different valve than the one you posted earlier on page 5? The video shows a different valve.

 

[BrewBeemer]

That VFD would work as long as your pump is 3 amp or less single phase it's right there in the specs on it. I bet those units are not cheap grab a couple if you can if they are free.

 

[Brewmoor]

I was wondering how you found the action of the valve for controlling the flow of your pump. Have you found this to be a workable solution?

How fast is full closed to full open?

Also did you order a different valve than the one you posted earlier on page 5? The video shows a different valve.

The open close action seems to work really well. It takes about 15 seconds in either direction. I really only use the flow control for sparging and recirculation through the herms coil.

The picture on page 5 is from the manufacturers website. When I got the valve in the mail it was the blue one you see in the video. I just chalk that up to typical china relations.

 

[clay9_24]

any idea what the Cv value for this valve is? I was putting a proportional valve into my sr design project and to get a valve with a high enough full open Cv value it ended up costing a **** load. i think i was about 1200 into that valve and controller alone.

 

[kladue]

You needed to look at the Belimo proportional ball valves, 1/2" 2 way for less than $200 new, around $50 or less on ebay. I use 5 in my brew system and the most spent for one was $20. The valves come with "CV" rating disks that are retained by snap rings, 30 seconds with snap ring pliers and you have a full port ball valve.