Mangrove Jack's US West Coast Ale yeast M44 experience?

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bassballboy

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Anyone have any experience with this yeast? It sounds pretty awesome, like a better version of s-04 in the ester department, but I'm wondering if that is legit.
 

bierhaus15

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I'll bite. If you are looking for a S-04 substitute, you'll be sorely disappointed. It is nothing like s-04... which is certainly a good thing.

M44 is, however, a very nice American Ale type of yeast. I've used it three times now and I'd say I prefer it over S-05. The main pro points for me being that it attenuates a tad better than S-05, is about as clean, and more importantly has *good* flocculation properties. However, it does take longer to ferment and produces a sizable amount of krausen, which does persist for some time.

It also ferments well at cool temps (I did all three of mine at 62-64F) and it didn't produce any sulfur or diacetyl. The esters are lightly fruity/neutral and comparatively less "peachy" than S-05. Again, there really isn't much comparison to S-04.
 
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bassballboy

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I'll bite. If you are looking for a S-04 substitute, you'll be sorely disappointed. It is nothing like s-04... which is certainly a good thing.

M44 is, however, a very nice American Ale type of yeast. I've used it three times now and I'd say I prefer it over S-05. The main pro points for me being that it attenuates a tad better than S-05, is about as clean, and more importantly has *good* flocculation properties. However, it does take longer to ferment and produces a sizable amount of krausen, which does persist for some time.

It also ferments well at cool temps (I did all three of mine at 62-64F) and it didn't produce any sulfur or diacetyl. The esters are lightly fruity/neutral and comparatively less "peachy" than S-05. Again, there really isn't much comparison to S-04.

Thanks for the detailed write-up! I ordered a couple of packets, that sounds like what I'm looking for. I'll report back later with results
 

highgravitybacon

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Brewed a 1.072 beer. Had 15L wort mashed at 67C for an hour. 5% sucrose added to kettle. Pitched one rehydrated pack. Lag time was total 48 hours. Fricking outrageous. Pitched a second pack straight into fermenter after seeing nothing for 36 hours. Saw fermentation in about 10 hours after that. So total lag was 48 hours.

Beer fermented down to 1.014, or 77.5% apparent attenuation. Nothing spectacular, but not too ****ty. Clean, few esters. Fermented at 18.5c for a few days before raising temp to 20 c for remainder.

It was okay. Just okay. I like that it's clean, flocculent (I did use gelatin to clear as well), and has a nice crisp profile. It wasn't as attenuative as I thought it would be. All in all, it's an okay yeast. I would probably use it again, but man the lag time is stupid long. Not a fan of that.
 

BreezyBrew

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Anyone see lacto like bubbles with this yeast? I'm thinking the dense krausen is just C02 release.
 

Malticulous

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I used it once. I don't think it took off or fermented as fast as US-05 but the results are slightly better and a few points lower. Flocculation didn't seem any better though.
 

RatsoRizzo

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Just in case anyone's interested in this yeast. Just bottled a basic pale ale using M44. OG 1.055 down to 1.011 in two weeks. Hydro sample tasted nice and clean, actually quite a dry bite to it. Flocs really well, beer was nice and clear going into the bottles. Washed the yeast and noticed that it floculated really quickly as I was waiting for the trub to settle out. So far so good.
 

Zoidberg

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I love it. House yeast now. I used to use notty and us-05 mainly but m44 flocs like notty and is clean like us-05, cleaner even. It is said to be the same as Pac man yeast, which in my experience is true. Ideal for American APAs and IPAs or clean profiled browns, ambers, porters. Careful to mash higher with some styles because this thug attenuates very high. My SMaSH IPA went from 1.060 to 1.005 in 4 days @ 66F
 

haberdasher

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I have (5G of a 10G) batch on M44 right now -- the other 5G is on 05.

Lag time after pitching the M44 was OVER 48 hours. OVER.
I was getting a little nervous for a while...

They're both chugging along now, I'll update in a week or so with FG numbers.
 

one-L

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From another Mangrove Jack thread I posted in yesterday:

Just used the West Coast in a 2 Hearted Clone. Almost 48 hours to really get cranking. OG was 1.063, transferred to keg after 3 week primary and its down to 1.008, slightly lower than I would like and its a bit thin. Its been in the keg since last Friday. Sample was alright. Perceived bitterness was higher than batches I have done with 05, aroma and flavor are still coming around. Still super cloudy after a week in the keg but may partially be from dry hops. Ran this higher than I would 05 just to see how it tolerated, probably fluctuated 68-72ish. I normally run 05 in the low 60s with great results but was worried about low attenuation. Some fruity esters but nothing too extreme. Going to let this sit for a couple of weeks and come back to it and see how it melds.
 

jfrank85

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I have (5G of a 10G) batch on M44 right now -- the other 5G is on 05.

Lag time after pitching the M44 was OVER 48 hours. OVER.
I was getting a little nervous for a while...

They're both chugging along now, I'll update in a week or so with FG numbers.
I'm experiencing the same thing with mine, after about 30hrs in i saw very minimal yeast activity and decided to rouse a bit. @ 36hrs the wort turned a bit more cloudy and more finer bubbles began to appear. 1.064 OG with oxygen pumped in for 2 minutes (aquarium style) fermented with 2 packets and sitting at 63F. Do you have any notes on how it tasted or how well it attenuated?? Also, I've read alot about this yeast over attenuating so I mashed for 4 points above my wanted FG.
 

haberdasher

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I'm experiencing the same thing with mine, after about 30hrs in i saw very minimal yeast activity and decided to rouse a bit. @ 36hrs the wort turned a bit more cloudy and more finer bubbles began to appear. 1.064 OG with oxygen pumped in for 2 minutes (aquarium style) fermented with 2 packets and sitting at 63F. Do you have any notes on how it tasted or how well it attenuated?? Also, I've read alot about this yeast over attenuating so I mashed for 4 points above my wanted FG.
Dissatisfied.
Rehydrated both yeasts per instructions (as usual). Pitch at probably 70* with less than 10* difference. M44 attenuated LESS than 05, in the same wort, in the same ferm chamber at 66*. Dry hopped with the same Centennials. Kegged and force carbed. Kegged with no hops in keg (I usually do).
M44 did not flocc nearly as well as the 05. Looks like chill haze. 05 beer was flawlessly clear. Read a book through it clear. I used whirfloc in the boil.
M44 produced distinct band-aid flavor, which has thankfully mellowed into a drinkable, but not great IPA. Harsher perceived bitterness. Mild soapy or astringent (?) finish. Got NONE of the juicy Mosaic flavor that was obvious in the 05 beer
The beer that i used 05 on has received multiple requests for re-brews from friends.
Here's the recipe for notes:
mash @152 1.066og, 10.5g
1.5lb C20L
2lb Munich
22 2row
2oz Magnum @ 60
2oz Centennial @ 15
1oz Mosaic @ 10
2oz Centennial @ 5
1oz Mosaic @ 0
2oz Centennial @ Dry (split into carboys)
 

jfrank85

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OK its been close to 53 hours and I'm seen quite a nice creamy white krausen. The smell is quite good, clean and crisp with almost pungent hop aromas (could be the 9oz of mosaic, simcoe, and nugget at 3oz each). Maybe the low temp caused the slight lag. I'll keep updates as it progresses.
 

BreezyBrew

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OK its been close to 53 hours and I'm seen quite a nice creamy white krausen. The smell is quite good, clean and crisp with almost pungent hop aromas (could be the 9oz of mosaic, simcoe, and nugget at 3oz each). Maybe the low temp caused the slight lag. I'll keep updates as it progresses.
Any idea when your pack was manufactured? Did you rehydrate?
 

agrazela

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I've got a Dead Guy-like clone AG going right now using M-44. I pitched dry (no rehydration), 18g (2 packs minus 2g for FFT) into 5.5 gal. I found it to start very quickly: good activity within 12 hrs, full-roiling within 24 hrs, and a thick full krausen in 36 hrs. Krausen did last about a week, though. Fermented one week at 65°F, then a second week at 68°F.

It did not attenuate quite as much as I expected, went from 1.065 to 1.014 (was expecting maybe 1.011-1.012 finish, as I have gotten from US-05 and BRY-97 in this recipe before), confirmed with a FFT test using same yeast. I did mash at 152°F. It flocculated wonderfully, this will be one clear beer. Haven't bottled it yet, but tasting thiefed samples I'd say it seems exceedingly clean with no fruity/estery notes or off-flavors at all.

So there you go, most of my experiences seem the opposite of most everyone else's with this yeast.
 

jfrank85

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Any idea when your pack was manufactured? Did you rehydrate?
No I don't tend to rehydrate, I read an article that said hydrating can wash off FAN. I acquired the yeast from farmhouse and they are usually always sold out so I assume it was quite fresh. Also I'm sure I over pitched with 2 packs @ 1.064 og.
 

Hello

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I just used this in an IPA. Slow slow start of fermentation but bubbling away now. Will know in another few days where I land. I did not rehydrate.
 

lotusworker

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I just used it this weekend because my lbhs had 50% off an IPA. It started after 12 hours..so far so good. I just pitched it dry.
 

Hello

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I just used it this weekend because my lbhs had 50% off an IPA. It started after 12 hours..so far so good. I just pitched it dry.

Me thinks we were brewing at the same place Saturday. ;-) did you also buy an AHA recipe for 1/2 off?
 

HB_in_Subic

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I tried this yeast for the first time. I am using this with a California Common. I rehydrated the yeast in boiled water that was cooled to 66F. I let it sit for at least 15 minutes and added 5 or 6 spoonfuls of cooled wort (at 66F) and let it sit again for 15 minutes before pitching. The OG of my beer was at 1.050. It took 42 hours before I saw any airlock activity (had a blowoff tube setup). The rate at first was once every 3 seconds. The next day it was once every 2 seconds. I think this yeast is a slow and steady yeast??

Next time I plan to follow a rehydration schedule for at least an hour involving small wort additions in 15 minute intervals. I did add yeast nutrient at 15 minutes before the boil, which I do on all of my brews. This by far has been the most lag time that I have encountered on a brew and thanks to this thread I was prepared for it.

:mug:
 

vwmasstransit

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I used it almost 2 weeks ago in an American Honey Ale, rehydrated, took about 40hrs to start airlock activity. Went from 1.070 to 1.014 in 5 days when airlock started to slow. I then added 2.5lbs raw honey and Airlock took off like crazy again for another 3 days. Haven't checked FG since then as I don't like opening unnecessarily.
 

vwmasstransit

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Did you pitch dry or rehydrated?

If your asking me, I rehydrated. Always do. I do a Mini starter for all my dry yeast. Probably doesn't make a difference but it makes me feel better :). I rehydrate with my treated strike water and a tsp of yeast nutrient and 2 tbs light DME at the beginning of my brew day. I always get the high side or greater expected attenuation from dry yeasts since I started doing this.
 

HB_in_Subic

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If your asking me, I rehydrated. Always do. I do a Mini starter for all my dry yeast. Probably doesn't make a difference but it makes me feel better :). I rehydrate with my treated strike water and a tsp of yeast nutrient and 2 tbs light DME at the beginning of my brew day. I always get the high side or greater expected attenuation from dry yeasts since I started doing this.
I usually do something similar. I did this for my Belgian IPA and Barleywine using two sachets of M27 for each batch and they went real low (one OG 1.093 FG 1.01, two OG 1.077 FG 1.004).

Next batch with M44 I will try the same. I didn't use the yeast nutrient this time, just the capsule at 15 minutes before the end of the boil.
 

aprichman

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I usually do something similar. I did this for my Belgian IPA and Barleywine using two sachets of M27 for each batch and they went real low (one OG 1.093 FG 1.01, two OG 1.077 FG 1.004).

Next batch with M44 I will try the same. I didn't use the yeast nutrient this time, just the capsule at 15 minutes before the end of the boil.
It might be worth pitching dry and seeing how that effects lag time. Lotusworker noted a small lagtime without hydrating the yeast and I'm curious if the yeast is designed to be pitched dry.
 

Donal

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Yeah, I've only used it once for a SMASH, which is about 4 days in to fermenting, but it started off quick , within the first 12 hrs. LOTS of krausen, filled an airlock already.

I pitched it dry.
 

SaguaroMan

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I just bottled a double IPA with M44, half pale malt/half Golden Promise and over half a pound of hops total.
I only had one packet so I made a starter and used Wyeast nutrient in the starter as well as the wort itself. Took over 24 hours to see any airlock activity and the krausen maybe only got an inch high in the fermenter.

When I bottled, it went from an OG of .090 to .012, apparent attenuation of 86% in 3 weeks:mug: (including 1 week dry hop). Sample I tasted was phenomenal; lots of fruit and citrus with a little spicy dankness. Can't wait till it carbs up!
 
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aprichman

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I just bottled a double IPA with M44, half pale malt/half Golden Promise and over half a pound of hops total.
I only had one packet so I made a starter and used Wyeast nutrient in the starter as well as the wort itself. Took over 24 hours to see any airlock activity and the krausen maybe only got an inch high in the fermenter.

When I bottled, it went from an OG of .090 to .012, apparent attenuation of 86% in 3 weeks:mug: (including 1 week dry hop). Sample I tasted was phenomenal; lots of fruit and citrus with a little spicy dankness. Can't wait till it carbs up!
What kind of hops did you use?
 

aprichman

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Warrior for FWH, then hopbursted @ 10, 5, and 0 with Apollo, Motueka, Pacifica and Experimental Grapefruit from Yakima Valley Hops. Dry hopped with Warrior, Apollo, Motueka and Pacifica
That sounds like an awesome hop blend! :rockin:
 

WSJ

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I decided to test with M44. I havent used dry yeast for a verry long time.
Not impressed. I used 3 pk for 45 litres and rehydrated the yeast. It took unusualy long time to start.
I was planning to rack the beer to secondary and had a taste. Taste was not bad but I can smell hint of sulfur.
Not happy about it at all. I let it sit few days at 23 C and then do a cold crash. When fermenting, I kept the temperature at constant 19 C.
 

jmole

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Hey all, just wanted to add to this thread as I just used M44 for the first time. I have been splitting 14g batches and pitching different yeasts for the past 4 batches to get a feel for behavior and flavor of different yeasts.

That being said, this past Sunday I did the same thing and 2 fermenters got US-05 and one got M44. I got initial activity from M44 within 8 hours, the initial tiny bubbles and yeast rolling, no krausen. At 24 hours we were full blown with a nice krausen. So for me, this was almost identical to the US05 and seems nice and vigorous.

I cooled all wort to 70F, pitched yeast into fermenter (no rehydration) and then started pumping on top of it (which I normally do). This seems to get a nice frothy aeration/yeast mixing before setting it aside. My ambient temp is 65 in the fermentation area.

OG was 1.046 as this (was supposed to be - I overshot OG) a session IPA
IBU ~40
14.6 g batch size, 15.5 post boil, 16.85 boil volume
Mashed at 150F 60m
83% 2-row
12% Munich
5% Flaked Oats
1.75oz Centennial FWH
1oz Centennial 20m
1oz Centennial 10m

Split 4.66g to another kettle for different whirlpool hop treatment (I like to experiment :D)

10g batch got
2oz Centennial 180F whirlpool for 10m
2oz Amarillo 180F whirlpool for 10m
2oz Simcoe 180F whirlpool for 10m
batch 1 - 1pk non-rehydrated US-05
batch 2 - 1 pk non-rehydrated M44

4.66g batch got
1oz Centennial 180F whirlpool for 10m
2oz Columbus 180F whirlpool for 10m
1pk non-rehydrated US-05

I'll follow back with FG, but humming along nicely right now, I really can't tell the difference.

Regards,
Justin
 

WSJ

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I am done with those "mystery packs" of dry yeast :)
That was one time emergency situation, that can be easily avoided.
 

vwmasstransit

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So 35 days after pitching M44 I bottled my 1.089 OG American Honey that FG 1.008. Tasting notes are AWESOME! Very clean complex. It has slight toffee and coffee. Honey is nice a subtle mouth feel is a little dry as you'd expect from the FG. So far I'm very impressed with this yeast in leu of the delayed start. I'll let you know in another month or so how they turn out fully carbed.
 

jmole

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Ok, so I'm about 10 days out and took my FG readings on my split batches of US05/M44 that came from the same wort. I mashed way too low and overshot on attenuation - got 84% out of the US05 and 87% out of the M44, lesson learned as

However, for the taste samples it's not really even close. The M44 seems to have muted both the malt and hops profile completely. With the Munich and 6 oz whirlpool addition I should be getting a nice solid malt backbone and hop punch. It does shine through in US05 batch, it's more clean and let's the malt and hops come the forefront. I can only describe the M44 as muddy against the US05.

This might change with time, but initial side by side from the same wort I am not impressed.

Regards,
Justin
 

jefnvk

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Just kegged my first batch with this yeast. I don't know if something went wrong or what, but I am not very impressed. For reference, my general yeast is S-04.

Beer was a 3 gallon batch of 1.062 Maibock ale. Pitched directly into the wort at 68F, as per usual. Took about 2 days to actually get going, which I found unusual, when it did it was rather vigorous with more than normal krausen. Wort stayed in the 66-68 range the duration of the fermentation. Sat in primary for two weeks, a standard procedure for me (as I generally do small batches, I lose too much taking periodic samples, so I just let it go), and finished up at 1.006, which was much lower than I expected.

Tasting the sample, it has a distinct plastic flavor, while the hops and malt are almost non-existent. Past the plastic flavor, it is really bland. I don't know if I underpitched, if I had an infection, or what, but there was nothing about my brew process that changed, and it is a result that I never have experienced before.

Ive got one other Mangrove Jack going right now (Bavarian Wheat in a honey wheat porter), Ill see how it goes, but I think Ill probably pass on this brand again.
 
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