Mango Wine tastes sour after primary fermentation

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avnthk

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Hi Guys,

This is my first attempt to brewing and the first post on the forum as well.

So I am try to brew mango Wine as it's mango season in India.

My ingredients

1.5 Kg of Mangoes fully ripe
1 kg of sugar
3.5 liters of water
250 grams of Grapes
1 small lemon

As it's really difficult to get professional yeast here, I added activated yeast on one day later. The yeast packing had wine as one of the application.

I put pieces of mangoes half with skin and half without skin. One mango stone as well. I also left lemon skin inside the fermentor. This was as shown in an online recipe I watched on YouTube.

I didn't have any instruments to measure initial gravity so didn't measure.

After 7 days today when I'm about to shift it to other carboy, I tasted it and it tastes sour. What could be the issue ?

I kept an airlock which was bubbling as well so I'm considering oxidation is not the reason.

Has it gone bad? Can it be salvaged? Please advise.
 

Raptor99

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Welcome to HBT. I love mangoes! You are lucky to have enough to make wine.

It's difficult to tell without a hydrometer reading, but if it was fermenting well for 7 days then it is possible that fermentation is nearly complete. It is normal for fruit wines to taste sour at this point. It need time to mature and age. If the lemon peel, including the pith, is in the fermenter for too long it can contribute bitter flavors.

When you siphon it to the other carboy, leave behind all the fruit pulp and lemon skin. Keep it full with very little airspace and leave it alone for several month under an airlock.

After it has aged for several months you might want to stabilize it with potassium metabisulfite and potassium sorbate. Then you can backsweeten to balance out the acidity and alcohol.
 

bernardsmith

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Hi Avnthk, and welcome.
You say the wine tastes "sour".
I wonder if you added the whole lemon peel or simply the zest? The pith can be very bitter (not really sour).
You also mentioned that you added grapes. Were these table or wine grapes? Were the properly ripe? They may have a great deal of acidity.
The other thought I have is that the yeast fermented all the sugar and you are tasting mangoes without any sweetness and you are perceiving this as "sour". You really do need an hydrometer to know where the wine is in the process: let me assume that 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of sugar added to 3.5 L of water will raise the gravity of the water to 1.085 (+/-). How sweet are mangoes? How much sugar do they contain? If you juiced a mango what would the specific gravity be (let me "guess" about 1.030 /gallon of juice but how much juice would be in 3lbs of mangoes. Let me guesstimate that we are dealing with a starting gravity of about 1.100 (or a potential ABV of about 13%). If you could measure the specific gravity today you would know how much sugar is remaining (today) and how much alcohol (approximately) the yeast has produced.
 
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avnthk

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Welcome to HBT. I love mangoes! You are lucky to have enough to make wine.

It's difficult to tell without a hydrometer reading, but if it was fermenting well for 7 days then it is possible that fermentation is nearly complete. It is normal for fruit wines to taste sour at this point. It need time to mature and age. If the lemon peel, including the pith, is in the fermenter for too long it can contribute bitter flavors.

When you siphon it to the other carboy, leave behind all the fruit pulp and lemon skin. Keep it full with very little airspace and leave it alone for several month under an airlock.

After it has aged for several months you might want to stabilize it with potassium metabisulfite and potassium sorbate. Then you can backsweeten to balance out the acidity and alcohol.
Hi Raptor,

Thanks for the warm welcome and your detailed reply. 😀😀

I had just done the same thing in the morning out of panic. Only one extra thing I did was after transferring it to new carboy, I added ~100 gms of sugar diluted in 300 ml of water.

Have ordered both the additives. Was just curious, should I add pinch of sodium metabisulfite in the carboy in next 4-5 days (it'll arrive by that) to avoid any probable oxidation from racking?

Postassium Sorbate anyway will be used just before bottling.

Would love to know your thoughts.

Thanks in anticipation.

PS: Btw I measured brix value before the transfer it was approximately 18.5, which means the SG should be around 1.075.
 
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avnthk

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Hi Avnthk, and welcome.
You say the wine tastes "sour".
I wonder if you added the whole lemon peel or simply the zest? The pith can be very bitter (not really sour).
You also mentioned that you added grapes. Were these table or wine grapes? Were the properly ripe? They may have a great deal of acidity.
The other thought I have is that the yeast fermented all the sugar and you are tasting mangoes without any sweetness and you are perceiving this as "sour". You really do need an hydrometer to know where the wine is in the process: let me assume that 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of sugar added to 3.5 L of water will raise the gravity of the water to 1.085 (+/-). How sweet are mangoes? How much sugar do they contain? If you juiced a mango what would the specific gravity be (let me "guess" about 1.030 /gallon of juice but how much juice would be in 3lbs of mangoes. Let me guesstimate that we are dealing with a starting gravity of about 1.100 (or a potential ABV of about 13%). If you could measure the specific gravity today you would know how much sugar is remaining (today) and how much alcohol (approximately) the yeast has produced.

Hey BernardSmith,

Let me thank you for the warm welcome and your detailed reply 😊😊😊.

Man, based on your gestimates you sound quite an expierenced felow.

I squeezed the juice of lemon inside the mixture and then left the whole skin inside the mixture.

The grapes were white and really sweet. In here we don't differentiate between table and wine grapes but from my discription it may fall under table

My present brix value measured was 18.5 which converts SG into 1.075.

I had completed my primary racking. Only one extra thing I did was after transferring it to new carboy, I added ~100 gms of sugar diluted in 300 ml of water.

Have ordered metabisulfite and sobate, the additives. Was just curious, should I add pinch of sodium metabisulfite in the carboy in next 4-5 days (it'll arrive by that) to avoid any probable oxidation from racking?

Postassium Sorbate anyway will be used just before bottling.

Would love to know your thoughts.

Thanks in anticipation.

PS- The way you guesstimated, you sound with lot of technical expertise in the field.
 

Raptor99

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Any more sugar that you add at this point will be used by the yeast to produce more alcohol. If you want to sweeten it, you must first stabilize it with Kmeta and Ksorbate.

It is a good idea to add Kmeta when racking. Most of us prefer potassium metabisulfite (Kmeta) rather than sodium metabisulfite because we don't want to add extra sodium. Back in my parents' time, sodium metabisulfite was commonly used. So that would work as well. The amount to add depends on the pH, but the default is 1 campden tablet per gallon, which is equivalent to 0.44 g of the Kmeta powder.

The Brix measurement is affected by the presence of alcohol once fermentation has started, so to find the current SG you need to use the original Brix in a calculator like this: Homebrew Refractometer Calculator If you don't know your original Brix, then it would be best to use a hydrometer to measure SG.
 
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avnthk

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Hi Raptor,

Thanks for your prompt response.

What are your thoughts on balancing out acidity with sodium bicarbonate powder, just before bottling, of course if it still tastes sour?
 

Raptor99

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I would not try to adjust the pH without an accurate reading using a pH meter. The usual target pH is around 3.4. If you raise the pH too high the wine will spoil much more easily. If you test and discover that the pH is below 3.0 you can use potassium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate to raise the pH a little bit at a time. Assuming that the pH was in the right range at the beginning, when you backsweeten it will balance out the sourness.

When you get ready to bottle, after at least 4-5 months of bulk aging, then you can stabilize and sweeten. At that time you can sweeten a small sample to see how much sugar you need and how the flavors balance. You need to balance acid, tannins, alcohol, and sweetness in a way that brings out rather than masks the fruit flavor. Getting it right is a real art that takes practice and lots of patience.
 

bernardsmith

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Hi Raptor,

Thanks for the warm welcome and your detailed reply. 😀😀

I had just done the same thing in the morning out of panic. Only one extra thing I did was after transferring it to new carboy, I added ~100 gms of sugar diluted in 300 ml of water.

Have ordered both the additives. Was just curious, should I add pinch of sodium metabisulfite in the carboy in next 4-5 days (it'll arrive by that) to avoid any probable oxidation from racking?

Postassium Sorbate anyway will be used just before bottling.

Would love to know your thoughts.

Thanks in anticipation.

PS: Btw I measured brix value before the transfer it was approximately 18.5, which means the SG should be around 1.075.
Always useful to add K-meta as you rack. Certainly never does any harm as long as you are not adding the same amount if K-meta as you would if sanitizing (2 oz /gallon). Campden tablets are designed to provide about 50 ppm of free SO2 if you crush ONE per gallon. and 50 ppm is more or less all you need for normal ranges of pH (about 3.0 - 3.5 )
 

Orval

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After 7 days today when I'm about to shift it to other carboy, I tasted it and it tastes sour. What could be the issue ?
What kind of sour taste? If it's like vinegar, then you got some contamination, and you could get some good vinegar... If it's like a very dry white wine, this is normal, there's no residual sugar. I'm not sure whether a mango wine will have a malo-lactic fermentation, just wait a while. In the future, add some potassium metabisulfite to kill unwanted germs. I've lots of mangoes and pineapples we cannot sell because of covid ( no tourists to the local fruit market-Ban Ray Muang-Loei-Thailand) but I'm not ready to process them. Local people make wine by adding boiling water to sanitize the chopped fruits, some boil the fruits, but this will affect the taste (pineapple, but I would do the same with mangoes). I'm using instant baker's yeast that I activate before adding it to the fermenter, fruit t° must be around 25°C though (Max:35°C!)
 
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avnthk

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Hi Guys,

It is in secondary fermentation for a week. It tasted nasty sour a week back but the sourness has gone and now it's mild sour but tastes a little bitter.

The ph value is approximately between 3.5 to 4.

Why it has gone from sour to bitter? Also, the mango flavour has gone a little bit dull.
 

Orval

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This seems to be the malo-lactic fermentation I mentioned in my reply. Bitterness may come from the lemon you added.
 
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avnthk

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This seems to be the malo-lactic fermentation I mentioned in my reply. Bitterness may come from the lemon you added.
Hi Orvel,

What do I do now? Sodium metabisulfite will be reaching 2-3 days if you want to advise it.

Is there a way I can improve it?
 

Orval

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Sodium metabisulfite is something you use before fermentation, in order to eliminate unwanted bugs, if you add some (0.5g/litre), this will prevent further contamination but won't change the taste. It's difficult to advise from afar...
What you could do is adding some sugar (+/- 45g-120g/litre, matter of taste, try with small amounts first) and sodium metabisulfite (1g/10 litres) to reach some sweetness without starting a new alcoholic fermentation. In fact as I mentioned in my first reply, potassium metabisulfite is better, but you can also use your sodium metabisulfite. (1g for 10 litres of wine for sweet wine, otherwise 0.5g / 10l. mango juice before fermentation to avoid contamination). Metabisulfite in excess can cause headache!
 
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avnthk

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Sodium metabisulfite is something you use before fermentation, in order to eliminate unwanted bugs, if you add some (0.5g/litre), this will prevent further contamination but won't change the taste. It's difficult to advise from afar...
What you could do is adding some sugar (+/- 45g-120g/litre, matter of taste, try with small amounts first) and sodium metabisulfite (1g/10 litres) to reach some sweetness without starting a new alcoholic fermentation. In fact as I mentioned in my first reply, potassium metabisulfite is better, but you can also use your sodium metabisulfite. (1g for 10 litres of wine for sweet wine, otherwise 0.5g / 10l. mango juice before fermentation to avoid contamination). Metabisulfite in excess can cause headache!
Thanks Orval,

For response in detail.

Unfortunately, potassium metabisulfite is unavailable here.

I'm sorry I'm asking so many questions but if I add metabisulfite at back sweetening then when do I use Potassium Sorbate? Isn't that should be used during back sweetening to avoid further fermentation?

Fermentation is still in progress, it has slowed down the bubbling in the airlock but the brix value reduces every other day.

I'm sorry for newbie anxieties...
 

Orval

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If your wine undergoes a malo lactic fermentation, I would avoid potassium sorbate which can react with lactic bacteria and give some off-flavour… Sodium metabisulfite is good enough to stabilize your wine though.
On the other hand, if the brix value reduces, it means the alcoholic fermentation isn't finished yet, there's still sugar in your must and is in contradiction with you post where you described a very sour taste... Try with 0.5g/ sodium metabisulfite/10 litres of wine. Again, it's almost impossible to give you the right instructions from here.
 
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avnthk

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If your wine undergoes a malo lactic fermentation, I would avoid potassium sorbate which can react with lactic bacteria and give some off-flavour… Sodium metabisulfite is good enough to stabilize your wine though.
On the other hand, if the brix value reduces, it means the alcoholic fermentation isn't finished yet, there's still sugar in your must and is in contradiction with you post where you described a very sour taste... Try with 0.5g/ sodium metabisulfite/10 litres of wine. Again, it's almost impossible to give you the right instructions from here.
Thanks Orval,

I understand it's never easy advising someone from that far and with little information.

Thanks again.
 

Coffee49

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Primary fermentation is day one of the birth of a fine wine. It takes months of patience to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have an apple honey wine that has the same symptoms, bland and still cloudy I will let it set on 2nd racking for 4 more months then hit it with bentonite if still cloudy. It is 6 months in maturing now, at the end it will require back sweeten then another 4 months in 3rd racking to ensure no cork pop when bottling. Wine is up to 15-25 per bottle in retail locations so this is a good hobby to be involved in.
 

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Good points, Coffee49 but I don't know that I would expect a cyser (apple mead) to taste "bland" when green. Have you measured the TA? And if you used commercially made apple juice (for the soft drink market) it is unlikely to have had enough tannin for a good quality cider. In my experience, apple wines and meads taste harsh and sharp when green because of the amount of malic acid from the apples. After 9 -12 months of aging malic is often converted (by bacteria) into lactic acid - a far less sharp acid. Also if you use 71B yeast this yeast itself metabolizes the malic acid. But "bland" is not a characteristic I would expect to associate with a young apple wine or mead.
 
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avnthk

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Primary fermentation is day one of the birth of a fine wine. It takes months of patience to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have an apple honey wine that has the same symptoms, bland and still cloudy I will let it set on 2nd racking for 4 more months then hit it with bentonite if still cloudy. It is 6 months in maturing now, at the end it will require back sweeten then another 4 months in 3rd racking to ensure no cork pop when bottling. Wine is up to 15-25 per bottle in retail locations so this is a good hobby to be involved in.
Thanks Coffee 49 for your reply.

So I would have to wait that's what it is, isn't it?

So will wait.
 

Orval

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apple wines and meads taste harsh and sharp when green because of the amount of malic acid from the apples. After 9 -12 months of aging malic is often converted (by bacteria) into lactic acid - a far less sharp acid.
This is the malo-lactic fermentation I mention in my post, this isn't restricted to cider, although malic comes from the Latin word malus which means apple. That fermentation is also wanted in grape wines. In our case, there's also malic acid in mangoes, depending upon the degree of fruit ripening...
 

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A short overview of fruit wine making process

A hydrometer allows you to know approximately the sugar content of the juice, and therefore the degree of alcohol at the end of fermentation. Thus, if it indicates a density of 1.057 at 20ºC, the sugar level is around 140 g / l, which corresponds to 8.2% alcohol; the values vary depending on the temperature. A refractometer will give a more precise indication.

To the experts, if I’m wrong, please notify…

Most often, mango juice contains 130 to 145 g of sugar per litre. To achieve 10% alcohol, which guarantees good conservation of the wine, it will therefore be necessary to add sugar during fermentation (see below).

In the case of mango juice, measuring the acidity is essential because it varies significantly depending upon the degree of fruit ripening! The favourable limits are between 6 and 10 g / l; optimum: 8 g / l. This measurement is necessary in order to accurately correct the acidity. As a rule of thumb, I would add 25% of mangoes not too ripe to reach a good acidity rather than lemon juice…

Initiate and manage fermentation

The fermentation of the juice involves the presence and activity of yeasts.

The use of baker's yeast is to be avoided if you want to make wine, personally I use it to make alcohol, otherwise a good selected yeast such as Champagne gives good results! You have to activate the yeasts by putting them in a mixture of sugar water and nutrient salts that are aerated to provide the oxygen necessary for the yeasts multiplication, the yeast multiplies by budding.

Sometimes it is advisable at this stage to add to the juice a "nutrient salt" composed of mineral elements intended to feed the yeasts: for example, ammonium diphosphate and / or potassium phosphate, Epsom salt, and sometimes vitamin B1.

The containers will initially be placed in a room where the temperature is 15ºC to 20ºC. (59-68 °F) After a few days (hours), fermentation starts: the yeast converts sugar into alcohol in absence of oxygen; a release of CO2 bubbles is observed which carries the impurities present towards the surface. The phenomenon intensifies, then it slows down after a few days; we install an airlock ( my fermenter is a large SS vessel, I do not use airlocks, if you use carboys, it’s advisable to place an airlock…

The containers are then placed in a room where the temperature is lower: ideally 10ºC (50°F). After 4 to 6 weeks, the fermentation is very slow and a lees forms at the bottom of the containers; the must tends to clarify somewhat.

I give here ideal values in my country of origin, Belgium, here where I live now, it is hot, no air conditioning so the temperatures are higher, 20-30 °C (68-86°F), the maximum not to be exceeded, being 35 °C (95°F). except with Kveik type yeasts ...

Make two successive rackings

At this time, the must should be siphoned into another carboy - demi john of the same capacity; the dregs are rejected and are replaced by water with the addition of a calculated amount of sugar. If, for example, the initial measurement of the sugar level results in 7% alcohol and you want to arrive at 10%, a guarantee of good conservation, it will be necessary to add a total of 3 x 17 = 51 g of sugar per liter (17 g of sugar generating 1% alcohol). We will add half of it to the first rack and the other half to the second.

After that, fermentation resumes with this food supply for the yeasts, then it slows down again; the must becomes much clearer. We will then proceed with the second racking with addition of the other half of the planned sugar. Fermentation resumes.

When it slows down, which is noticed by the very low appearance of CO2 bubbles on the surface and/or in the airlock, if the wine is perfectly clear, it is ready to produce a sparkling wine (see next point). If it is not clear, you will need to add a clarifier: for example egg white.

Bottling a sparkling wine ...

The fermentation will take place in 75 cl Champagne bottles with a plastic cap and iron muselet.

A piece of sugar (= 5 g) is added to each bottle, which starts the fermentation again. As the CO2 can no longer escape at this point, it dissolves in the wine, and the pressure increases; it forms dregs. The bottles are stored lying down.

After a few weeks, the sparkling wine can be consumed. One or two days beforehand, the bottles are straightened in order to slide the dregs into the bottom, and placed in the fridge. The whole bottle should be served in the glasses at one time to avoid clouding the wine.

... or a still wine

When no more CO2 bubbles have come out of the airlock for several days, we can think that the fermentation is finished. Wine can be bottled, but variations in atmospheric pressure can mislead you, and restarts of fermentation are not excluded.

As a precaution, we will also use muzzled champagne bottles since ordinary bottles could turn into explosive grenades.

From pressing the mangoes to bottling, it will take about 4 to 6 months. It is advisable to keep the wine a few months before consuming it. The conservation of a fruit wine containing at least 10% alcohol can reach ten years.
 
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avnthk

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A short overview of fruit wine making process

A hydrometer allows you to know approximately the sugar content of the juice, and therefore the degree of alcohol at the end of fermentation. Thus, if it indicates a density of 1.057 at 20ºC, the sugar level is around 140 g / l, which corresponds to 8.2% alcohol; the values vary depending on the temperature. A refractometer will give a more precise indication.

To the experts, if I’m wrong, please notify…

Most often, mango juice contains 130 to 145 g of sugar per litre. To achieve 10% alcohol, which guarantees good conservation of the wine, it will therefore be necessary to add sugar during fermentation (see below).

In the case of mango juice, measuring the acidity is essential because it varies significantly depending upon the degree of fruit ripening! The favourable limits are between 6 and 10 g / l; optimum: 8 g / l. This measurement is necessary in order to accurately correct the acidity. As a rule of thumb, I would add 25% of mangoes not too ripe to reach a good acidity rather than lemon juice…

Initiate and manage fermentation

The fermentation of the juice involves the presence and activity of yeasts.

The use of baker's yeast is to be avoided if you want to make wine, personally I use it to make alcohol, otherwise a good selected yeast such as Champagne gives good results! You have to activate the yeasts by putting them in a mixture of sugar water and nutrient salts that are aerated to provide the oxygen necessary for the yeasts multiplication, the yeast multiplies by budding.

Sometimes it is advisable at this stage to add to the juice a "nutrient salt" composed of mineral elements intended to feed the yeasts: for example, ammonium diphosphate and / or potassium phosphate, Epsom salt, and sometimes vitamin B1.

The containers will initially be placed in a room where the temperature is 15ºC to 20ºC. (59-68 °F) After a few days (hours), fermentation starts: the yeast converts sugar into alcohol in absence of oxygen; a release of CO2 bubbles is observed which carries the impurities present towards the surface. The phenomenon intensifies, then it slows down after a few days; we install an airlock ( my fermenter is a large SS vessel, I do not use airlocks, if you use carboys, it’s advisable to place an airlock…

The containers are then placed in a room where the temperature is lower: ideally 10ºC (50°F). After 4 to 6 weeks, the fermentation is very slow and a lees forms at the bottom of the containers; the must tends to clarify somewhat.

I give here ideal values in my country of origin, Belgium, here where I live now, it is hot, no air conditioning so the temperatures are higher, 20-30 °C (68-86°F), the maximum not to be exceeded, being 35 °C (95°F). except with Kveik type yeasts ...

Make two successive rackings

At this time, the must should be siphoned into another carboy - demi john of the same capacity; the dregs are rejected and are replaced by water with the addition of a calculated amount of sugar. If, for example, the initial measurement of the sugar level results in 7% alcohol and you want to arrive at 10%, a guarantee of good conservation, it will be necessary to add a total of 3 x 17 = 51 g of sugar per liter (17 g of sugar generating 1% alcohol). We will add half of it to the first rack and the other half to the second.

After that, fermentation resumes with this food supply for the yeasts, then it slows down again; the must becomes much clearer. We will then proceed with the second racking with addition of the other half of the planned sugar. Fermentation resumes.

When it slows down, which is noticed by the very low appearance of CO2 bubbles on the surface and/or in the airlock, if the wine is perfectly clear, it is ready to produce a sparkling wine (see next point). If it is not clear, you will need to add a clarifier: for example egg white.

Bottling a sparkling wine ...

The fermentation will take place in 75 cl Champagne bottles with a plastic cap and iron muselet.

A piece of sugar (= 5 g) is added to each bottle, which starts the fermentation again. As the CO2 can no longer escape at this point, it dissolves in the wine, and the pressure increases; it forms dregs. The bottles are stored lying down.

After a few weeks, the sparkling wine can be consumed. One or two days beforehand, the bottles are straightened in order to slide the dregs into the bottom, and placed in the fridge. The whole bottle should be served in the glasses at one time to avoid clouding the wine.

... or a still wine

When no more CO2 bubbles have come out of the airlock for several days, we can think that the fermentation is finished. Wine can be bottled, but variations in atmospheric pressure can mislead you, and restarts of fermentation are not excluded.

As a precaution, we will also use muzzled champagne bottles since ordinary bottles could turn into explosive grenades.

From pressing the mangoes to bottling, it will take about 4 to 6 months. It is advisable to keep the wine a few months before consuming it. The conservation of a fruit wine containing at least 10% alcohol can reach ten years.
Woh!

Thanks, Orval. That was quite a detailed response. A lot of things to learn.

But you mentioned, the first racking should happen after 4-5 months. That long?

I have seen many articles and videos advising to rack within 5-7 days of initiation.
 

Orval

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Woh!

Thanks, Orval. That was quite a detailed response. A lot of things to learn.

But you mentioned, the first racking should happen after 4-5 months. That long?

I have seen many articles and videos advising to rack within 5-7 days of initiation.
In fact you can rack after the fermentation is complete and the wine clear, I think I mentioned 4-6 weeks though. Also, bare in mind my other posts related to Potassium metabisulfite an malo-lactic fermentation, although I'm not sure this plays a big role with mangoes, the acidity comes mainly from citric acid. The ratio citric acid/malic acid in mangoes is about 50/1... The most efficient way to get the right pH would be adding tartaric acid rather than lemon juice.
 

Orval

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In my long post, I mentioned the acid in your juice without explaining how to get that information. Ideally you would need some basic lab equipment, and some practice...
Ideal materials:
500 ml wide mouth Erlenmeyer flask and a 250 ml beaker -a mason jar or similar could do the job...
25 ml burette and burette stand - a syringe could do the job, less convenient though
5 ml pipette and a 1 ml pipette - a syringe could do the job, not very convenient though
Distilled water
0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide)
BBT indicator
Determination of the juice acidity by titration with caustic soda (NaOH).
Rinse a burette then fill it with the sodium hydroxide solution (sodium hydroxide) at 0.10 mol / L and adjust to zero – you can use a syringe and adjust to its upper limit, but it’ll be difficult to press the piston softly enough to get the right amount of reactant.
0.10 mol / L: put 1g of caustic soda (NaOH) in a mason jar (or any other container), add very carefully, slowly 250ml of distilled water. DO NOT try the opposite, caustic soda in water NO!
It’s not the real academic method to get a 0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution, but it’s good enough for our purposes…
Take Vj = 20.0 mL of juice using a volumetric pipette and pour them into a beaker. (glass mason jar, you may not have the real lab equipment needed…
You can use a syringe to do so, but it's not ideal though.
Add a few drops of BBT.
BBT (bromothymol blue) is a coloured indicator, that is to say a chemical species which has the particularity of changing colour depending upon the pH of the solution. Its acid hue is yellow and its basic (pH>7) hue is blue.
Ideally, we should use the Phenolphthalein indicator, but the colour change (pink hue) is not as easy to identify as with BBT.
When the BBT turns from yellow to blue, the pH of the solution will then be 7. In fact, you won’t see the yellow colour as your juice is basically orange/yellow…
Shake well to eliminate as much CO2 as possible, CO2 will affect your result. Again, in a real lab, there’s a method to achieve this, but we do not need to reach perfection here.
Gradually pour the NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution into the beaker stir regularly and drop by drop when the tint of the solution turns green. Stop the titration when the solution has turned blue and record the volume of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution poured.
The main acid in a mango is citric acid, M=192g/Mole in grape wine it would be tartaric acid M = 150,09 g/Mole. In fact they are very close and to keep it simple I will consider it’s tartaric acid (it would the case with pineapples). It’s also more convenient because all information you will read in the literature will refer to tartaric acid…
The formula may look a bit difficult…
  • Ca= Cr x Vr M/2x Vj - I will solve it step by step to avoid a decimals 'tangling'.
  • 2 because tartaric acid is a diacid, with citric acid, this would be 3…
  • Ca=Concentration of tartaric acid we are looking for
  • Cr= Reactant (NaOH) concentration in Mole/L
  • Vr= volume of reactant used, in mL
  • Vj= Volume of juice in mL
  • Assume you poured 15,5 mL of NaOH solution.
  • Cr = 0.1
  • Vr=15,5 mL
  • Vj= 20 mL
  • M=150g/Mole
  • Vr Cr =15,5 10-3 *0,1 = 1,55 10-3 Mole.
  • Divide by 2 = 0,5*1,55 10-3 =7,75 10-4 Mole.
  • Mass of tartaric acid : 7,75 10-4 *150 =0,11625 ~0,116 g in 20,0 mL of juice.
  • 1L=1000mL -> 1000mL/20mL=50...
  • 0.116g*50=5.8g/L. of acid in your juice. which isn't enough, again, there's a method to fix this...
  • To keep it stupid simple, in this example you would add 2g/L of tartaric acid in your juice and you would be on the safe side...
 
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avnthk

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In my long post, I mentioned the acid in your juice without explaining how to get that information. Ideally you would need some basic lab equipment, and some practice...
Ideal materials:
500 ml wide mouth Erlenmeyer flask and a 250 ml beaker -a mason jar or similar could do the job...
25 ml burette and burette stand - a syringe could do the job, less convenient though
5 ml pipette and a 1 ml pipette - a syringe could do the job, not very convenient though
Distilled water
0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide)
BBT indicator
Determination of the juice acidity by titration with caustic soda (NaOH).
Rinse a burette then fill it with the sodium hydroxide solution (sodium hydroxide) at 0.10 mol / L and adjust to zero – you can use a syringe and adjust to its upper limit, but it’ll be difficult to press the piston softly enough to get the right amount of reactant.
0.10 mol / L: put 1g of caustic soda (NaOH) in a mason jar (or any other container), add very carefully, slowly 250ml of distilled water. DO NOT try the opposite, caustic soda in water NO!
It’s not the real academic method to get a 0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution, but it’s good enough for our purposes…
Take Vj = 20.0 mL of juice using a volumetric pipette and pour them into a beaker. (glass mason jar, you may not have the real lab equipment needed…
You can use a syringe to do so, but it's not ideal though.
Add a few drops of BBT.
BBT (bromothymol blue) is a coloured indicator, that is to say a chemical species which has the particularity of changing colour depending upon the pH of the solution. Its acid hue is yellow and its basic (pH>7) hue is blue.
Ideally, we should use the Phenolphthalein indicator, but the colour change (pink hue) is not as easy to identify as with BBT.
When the BBT turns from yellow to blue, the pH of the solution will then be 7. In fact, you won’t see the yellow colour as your juice is basically orange/yellow…
Shake well to eliminate as much CO2 as possible, CO2 will affect your result. Again, in a real lab, there’s a method to achieve this, but we do not need to reach perfection here.
Gradually pour the NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution into the beaker stir regularly and drop by drop when the tint of the solution turns green. Stop the titration when the solution has turned blue and record the volume of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution poured.
The main acid in a mango is citric acid, M=192g/Mole in grape wine it would be tartaric acid M = 150,09 g/Mole. In fact they are very close and to keep it simple I will consider it’s tartaric acid (it would the case with pineapples). It’s also more convenient because all information you will read in the literature will refer to tartaric acid…
The formula may look a bit difficult…
  • Ca= Cr x Vr M/2x Vj - I will solve it step by step to avoid a decimals 'tangling'.
  • 2 because tartaric acid is a diacid, with citric acid, this would be 3…
  • Ca=Concentration of tartaric acid we are looking for
  • Cr= Reactant (NaOH) concentration in Mole/L
  • Vr= volume of reactant used, in mL
  • Vj= Volume of juice in mL
  • Assume you poured 15,5 mL of NaOH solution.
  • Cr = 0.1
  • Vr=15,5 mL
  • Vj= 20 mL
  • M=150g/Mole
  • Vr Cr =15,5 10-3 *0,1 = 1,55 10-3 Mole.
  • Divide by 2 = 0,5*1,55 10-3 =7,75 10-4 Mole.
  • Mass of tartaric acid : 7,75 10-4 *150 =0,11625 ~0,116 g in 20,0 mL of juice.
  • 1L=1000mL -> 1000mL/20mL=50...
  • 0.116g*50=5.8g/L. of acid in your juice. which isn't enough, again, there's a method to fix this...
  • To keep it stupid simple, in this example you would add 2g/L of tartaric acid in your juice and you would be on the safe side...
Hey Orval,


That's too much of chemistry for even science student like me.

I'll keep it stupid simple 😂 and ph value is 3.5-4 read with universal litmus paper.
 
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avnthk

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Hey guys,

It's been 3 weeks. 8 days in primary fermentation and remaining in secondary. The Brix value has not moved for a week. Hence, I'm assuming the fermentation is over and it's time for bottling, isn't it?

Also whatever queries I posted earlier related to wine being sour and bitter, that everything has gone and it has become completely bland. It doesn't even give mango flavour. So shall I add a little, homemade mango juice for flavour before bottling? Of course, I will have to add potassium sorbate. (Unfortunately I haven't used metabisulfite once)

Waiting for your advice guys.

Regards,
Avnish

In my long post, I mentioned the acid in your juice without explaining how to get that information. Ideally you would need some basic lab equipment, and some practice...
Ideal materials:
500 ml wide mouth Erlenmeyer flask and a 250 ml beaker -a mason jar or similar could do the job...
25 ml burette and burette stand - a syringe could do the job, less convenient though
5 ml pipette and a 1 ml pipette - a syringe could do the job, not very convenient though
Distilled water
0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide)
BBT indicator
Determination of the juice acidity by titration with caustic soda (NaOH).
Rinse a burette then fill it with the sodium hydroxide solution (sodium hydroxide) at 0.10 mol / L and adjust to zero – you can use a syringe and adjust to its upper limit, but it’ll be difficult to press the piston softly enough to get the right amount of reactant.
0.10 mol / L: put 1g of caustic soda (NaOH) in a mason jar (or any other container), add very carefully, slowly 250ml of distilled water. DO NOT try the opposite, caustic soda in water NO!
It’s not the real academic method to get a 0.1 Normal NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution, but it’s good enough for our purposes…
Take Vj = 20.0 mL of juice using a volumetric pipette and pour them into a beaker. (glass mason jar, you may not have the real lab equipment needed…
You can use a syringe to do so, but it's not ideal though.
Add a few drops of BBT.
BBT (bromothymol blue) is a coloured indicator, that is to say a chemical species which has the particularity of changing colour depending upon the pH of the solution. Its acid hue is yellow and its basic (pH>7) hue is blue.
Ideally, we should use the Phenolphthalein indicator, but the colour change (pink hue) is not as easy to identify as with BBT.
When the BBT turns from yellow to blue, the pH of the solution will then be 7. In fact, you won’t see the yellow colour as your juice is basically orange/yellow…
Shake well to eliminate as much CO2 as possible, CO2 will affect your result. Again, in a real lab, there’s a method to achieve this, but we do not need to reach perfection here.
Gradually pour the NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution into the beaker stir regularly and drop by drop when the tint of the solution turns green. Stop the titration when the solution has turned blue and record the volume of NaOH (sodium hydroxide) solution poured.
The main acid in a mango is citric acid, M=192g/Mole in grape wine it would be tartaric acid M = 150,09 g/Mole. In fact they are very close and to keep it simple I will consider it’s tartaric acid (it would the case with pineapples). It’s also more convenient because all information you will read in the literature will refer to tartaric acid…
The formula may look a bit difficult…
  • Ca= Cr x Vr M/2x Vj - I will solve it step by step to avoid a decimals 'tangling'.
  • 2 because tartaric acid is a diacid, with citric acid, this would be 3…
  • Ca=Concentration of tartaric acid we are looking for
  • Cr= Reactant (NaOH) concentration in Mole/L
  • Vr= volume of reactant used, in mL
  • Vj= Volume of juice in mL
  • Assume you poured 15,5 mL of NaOH solution.
  • Cr = 0.1
  • Vr=15,5 mL
  • Vj= 20 mL
  • M=150g/Mole
  • Vr Cr =15,5 10-3 *0,1 = 1,55 10-3 Mole.
  • Divide by 2 = 0,5*1,55 10-3 =7,75 10-4 Mole.
  • Mass of tartaric acid : 7,75 10-4 *150 =0,11625 ~0,116 g in 20,0 mL of juice.
  • 1L=1000mL -> 1000mL/20mL=50...
  • 0.116g*50=5.8g/L. of acid in your juice. which isn't enough, again, there's a method to fix this...
  • To keep it stupid simple, in this example you would add 2g/L of tartaric acid in your juice and you would be on the safe side...
Good points, Coffee49 but I don't know that I would expect a cyser (apple mead) to taste "bland" when green. Have you measured the TA? And if you used commercially made apple juice (for the soft drink market) it is unlikely to have had enough tannin for a good quality cider. In my experience, apple wines and meads taste harsh and sharp when green because of the amount of malic acid from the apples. After 9 -12 months of aging malic is often converted (by bacteria) into lactic acid - a far less sharp acid. Also if you use 71B yeast this yeast itself metabolizes the malic acid. But "bland" is not a characteristic I would expect to associate with a young apple wine or mead.
Primary fermentation is day one of the birth of a fine wine. It takes months of patience to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I have an apple honey wine that has the same symptoms, bland and still cloudy I will let it set on 2nd racking for 4 more months then hit it with bentonite if still cloudy. It is 6 months in maturing now, at the end it will require back sweeten then another 4 months in 3rd racking to ensure no cork pop when bottling. Wine is up to 15-25 per bottle in retail locations so this is a good hobby to be involved in.
Always useful to add K-meta as you rack. Certainly never does any harm as long as you are not adding the same amount if K-meta as you would if sanitizing (2 oz /gallon). Campden tablets are designed to provide about 50 ppm of free SO2 if you crush ONE per gallon. and 50 ppm is more or less all you need for normal ranges of pH (about 3.0 - 3.5 )
 
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Orval

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I wouldn't add mango juice, this will restart the fermentation (sugar) without adding that much of flavour... We recommend Potassium metabisulfite to avoid sodium, but if you are not suffering under a sodium (table salt) diet, sodium metabisulfite will do the job! MAX 70mg/L. In your case, as I understand there's no sugar anymore I would go for half of this or 30-35 mg/L. Test your pH, you may like to add some tartaric acid to give more personality to your wine that you describe as bland... Did you measure the alcohol content?
 
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avnthk

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I wouldn't add mango juice, this will restart the fermentation (sugar) without adding that much of flavour... We recommend Potassium metabisulfite to avoid sodium, but if you are not suffering under a sodium (table salt) diet, sodium metabisulfite will do the job! MAX 70mg/L. In your case, as I understand there's no sugar anymore I would go for half of this or 30-35 mg/L.
Thanks Orval.

Can I add a little thinned sweetened mango juice for flavour and add potassium sorbate to avoid full-blown fermentation and metabisulfite for sterilisation?
 

Orval

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You can do so, potassium sorbate max 270mg/L!
 
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avnthk

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You can do so, potassium sorbate max 270mg/L!
Thanks for the great support.

Just to confirm, I should add 270mg/L of sorbate and 70mg/L of metabisulfite after I add the mango juice. Later I should bottle it. Is that right?
 

Orval

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Sorbate will prevent any further fermentation, add only 35 mg/L metabisulfite and 270 mg/L of sorbate, add your juice, let it settle for a couple of days for further clarification (cold place if possible) and after that you can bottle your wine. Dissolve the potassium sorbate in 4 to 5 times its weight of cold water, not directly in your wine!
 
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avnthk

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Sorbate will prevent any further fermentation, add only 35 mg/L metabisulfite and 270 mg/L of sorbate, add your juice, let it settle for a couple of days for further clarification (cold place if possible) and after that you can bottle your wine. Dissolve the potassium sorbate in 4 to 5 times its weight of cold water, not directly in your wine!
Thanks, Orval. 😀
 

bernardsmith

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Hey guys,

It's been 3 weeks. 8 days in primary fermentation and remaining in secondary. The Brix value has not moved for a week. Hence, I'm assuming the fermentation is over and it's time for bottling, isn't it?

Also whatever queries I posted earlier related to wine being sour and bitter, that everything has gone and it has become completely bland. It doesn't even give mango flavour. So shall I add a little, homemade mango juice for flavour before bottling? Of course, I will have to add potassium sorbate. (Unfortunately I haven't used metabisulfite once)

Waiting for your advice guys.

Regards,
Avnish
Two quick thoughts. When active fermentation has ended that may not be the time to bottle but to bulk age. Bottle only after the wine has cleared bright and you can read a newspaper through the carboy. If it's not yet clear then sediment will drop and that will spoil the appearance (and perhaps the taste) of the wine. Wine generally can take months and months before it's ready for bottling.

The other thought is that country wines generally need back sweetening to bring forward the flavor of the fruit. Not a lot of added sugar AFTER you stabilize but some and you may need to bench test to see how much THIS wine needs. The amount of sugar needed is dependent on the acidity, the strength of the flavor, the mouthfeel you want and the like . You also want the wine to have an appropriate amount of acidity (NOT pH but TA) . Taste your wine and if it tastes bland you may want to add acidity. Again, bench test. If you don't have access to different wine acids (or acid blend) you might add the juice from a lemon...
 
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avnthk

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Two quick thoughts. When active fermentation has ended that may not be the time to bottle but to bulk age. Bottle only after the wine has cleared bright and you can read a newspaper through the carboy. If it's not yet clear then sediment will drop and that will spoil the appearance (and perhaps the taste) of the wine. Wine generally can take months and months before it's ready for bottling.

The other thought is that country wines generally need back sweetening to bring forward the flavor of the fruit. Not a lot of added sugar AFTER you stabilize but some and you may need to bench test to see how much THIS wine needs. The amount of sugar needed is dependent on the acidity, the strength of the flavor, the mouthfeel you want and the like . You also want the wine to have an appropriate amount of acidity (NOT pH but TA) . Taste your wine and if it tastes bland you may want to add acidity. Again, bench test. If you don't have access to different wine acids (or acid blend) you might add the juice from a lemon...
Thanks Bernardsmith
 

Skyline225

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Hey guys,

It's been 3 weeks. 8 days in primary fermentation and remaining in secondary. The Brix value has not moved for a week. Hence, I'm assuming the fermentation is over and it's time for bottling, isn't it?

Also whatever queries I posted earlier related to wine being sour and bitter, that everything has gone and it has become completely bland. It doesn't even give mango flavour. So shall I add a little, homemade mango juice for flavour before bottling? Of course, I will have to add potassium sorbate. (Unfortunately I haven't used metabisulfite once)

Waiting for your advice guys.

Regards,
Avnish
That lemon is driving pH down, but so is the mango. Test your pH. I did a cranberry orange blossom that made it down to 2.8. It finished just fine with the addition of additional CaCO3. Some wine tannin will give you a more finished flavor. In regards to the mango flavor, you can add some mango juice concentrate if you stabilize with metabisulfite for a couple days. If you don't want to increase the gravity and add too much sweetness, try an amoretti mango natural flavor extract. They are amazing. Good luck!
 
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avnthk

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Hello guys,

I have bottled my wine. It came to approximately 4 liters. It has become quite clear and but has not left its yellow colour completely. It has a little sweetness, sourness and bitterness which you get accustomed with as you gulp a little more. I am not sure of the high alcohol percentage because after drinking approximately 350 ml I was a little light but not very high. Also I was terribly sleepy which was something new in my alcohol experience. I mixed a little metabisulfite which was a little unutilised when we had it. This started binding with oxygen in the body causing sleepiness.Is that a possible explanation?
IMG_20210708_193128.jpg


But great start and thanks for supporting me throughout the initiation. I'm starting my new batch in a few days. Litchi, pear,plum and banana are in option. You may advice any other fruit.
 

bernardsmith

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Hello guys,

I have bottled my wine. It came to approximately 4 liters. ...
I was terribly sleepy which was something new in my alcohol experience. I mixed a little metabisulfite which was a little unutilised when we had it. This started binding with oxygen in the body causing sleepiness.Is that a possible explanation?
A far more likely explanation is that you drank a great deal of ethanol too quickly. Your wine was probably around 15 or 16% ABV . Three hundred and fifty ml is more than half a US pint and at 15% ABV (the equivalent of about four times the amount of ethanol in a beer so depending on how quickly you downed that amount of alcohol my money is on intoxication rather than a problem with the K-meta.
 
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