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Maltodextrin in Amber ale

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cajunbrewer14

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Im about to do a 1.5 gallon amber ale brew. How much Maltodextrin should I add? Also at what point?
 

RM-MN

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Are you sure that you need maltodextrine? Your extract may contain carapils that does approximately the same thing, add body and heading to a thin beer.
 

chickypad

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Edit - as I was typing RM-MN asked the same thing I was going to. Unless the recipe specifically calls for it or you've brewed this beer before and it came out too thin I wouldn't add any. If you are making a recipe from scratch post that to get feedback. I would think an amber likely already has enough crystal to add enough body for the style.
 

peterlonz

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What is "carapils".
And worth noting that matodextrine is not completely fermentable, tending to add sweetness to any brew. It is often present in "Brew Enhancers" at usually around 20%.
 

RM-MN

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Carapils is a type of barley malt that has been stewed to convert the starches to sugars right in the kernel. It has been stewed at the temperature that makes primarily dextrine sugars, just as maltodextrine has. It is easy to add to the mash for making the extract and tends to add mouthfeel and good heading for the beer.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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What is "carapils".
And worth noting that matodextrine is not completely fermentable, tending to add sweetness to any brew. It is often present in "Brew Enhancers" at usually around 20%.
With regard to sweetness, are you perhaps thinking of Lactose? Maltodextrin does not add sweetness.
 

dmtaylor

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Im about to do a 1.5 gallon amber ale brew. How much Maltodextrin should I add? Also at what point?
Zero. Don't add any maltodextrin. It is not fermentable.

Perhaps you intended to say "malt extract"? If so, that is much different. Extract is about 70-80% fermentable.

Two totally different things. Post the ingredients or recipe you are using and we should be able to help.
 

Hopalong

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I agree with the other brewers. Why use it?

A little science type stuff about maltodextrin, saccharification, conversion and dextrinization which will help when you decide to use all malt.

Because malt is tested, maltodextrin exists. Malt is tested at 145, 153 and 155F. The single infusion method is used for the tests. The temperatures are not high enough during the tests to cause starch called amylo-pectin to "melt" and the starch is left in the spent mash. Amylo-pectin begins to "melt" slowly at 169F.
In making maltodextrin protein sludge is removed from the spent mash and pH is adjusted to make Alpha happy. Some water is added to thin the mash down and then it is boiled. Boiling causes the starch to rapidly, "melt." The liquid is drained from the mash and Alpha is added when the liquid is cooled to anywhere from 149F up to the temperature where Alpha denatures. After that an acid is added and a few steps later mud forms. The mud is dried and powdered and maltodextrin is produced. Brewers Malt Extract and Bakers Malt Extract are bi-products of three tests and maltodextrin is mixed in. Nothing is thrown away.
Malt is tested because it is very inconsistent. A spec sheet comes with each sack of grain and the data listed on the sheet comes from the tests. The sheet is used for determining the quality of malt. It's not a bad idea to learn about the chemicals, acronyms and numbers that are listed on the sheet. It is some interesting stuff.
Like RM mentioned. When malt is boiled heat resistant starch "melts." Amylo-pectin is located at the tips of the kernel and it rapidly enters into solution when mash is boiled. The starch is the richest starch in the kernel because it contains limit dextrin. A and B limit dextrin are tasteless, non-fermenting types of sugar responsible for body and mouthfeel. During the decoction method mash is boiled and amylo-pectin rapidly enters into solution. The boiling mash is added back into the main mash and dextrinization occurs when Alpha liquefies the starch chain at 1-6 links. When the starch liquefies limit dextrin is released. At the same time saccharification is going on when simple starch, amylose is liquefied by Alpha at 1-4 links.
Alpha is responsible for liquefaction, saccharification and dextrinization.
Beta is responsible for conversion at a rest somewhere around 140F. During conversion, Beta converts glucose into complex types of sugar, maltose and maltotriose. Yeast loves glucose a lot, it doesn't love complex sugar, too much. So, when a Beta rest is used second fermentation is required because during second fermentation a reverse conversion occurs. Since, yeast rips through all of the simple stuff during primary fermentation, the only stuff left is complex sugar which yeast doesn't love, too much. So, due to the Great Magnet knowing that sooner or later apes would figure out how to produce ale and lager, He/She/Alien equipped yeast with an enzyme that deals with complex sugar just so we could make ale. Friggen way cool! Now, here's what goes on. Yeast absorbs maltose through the cell wall during second fermentation and the enzyme converts maltose back into glucose. The glucose is expelled back through the cell wall and yeast uses the sugar for fuel. During second fermentation gravity reduces closer to expected FG. During the aging phase the same thing happens to maltotriose and natural carbonation occurs and FG is hit.
I don't believe Beta plays a significant role in producing Carapils or Crystal. The malt did not pass brewers or distillers specs and that is why it became a specialty malt. When malt contains Beta, the malt would have been sold for making Ale and Lager. Cara and Crystal share a bench with rancid malt. Sometimes, the malt will go 180 degrees opposite of what the literature mentions about it.
 

peterlonz

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Hell that's an awful lot to digest.
I am now completely lost & I can't see the key points in the above with any clarity.
The effort to post is appreciated, hope it helps someone.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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With Carapils you may or may not achieve your goal of increasing perceived mouthfeel due to dextrins, but with the addition of pure maltodextrin there is no doubt that a beers dextrin level will go way up.

A Brulosophy triangle test could not distinguish a beer with Carapils in the grist from the same beer with Carapils left out. In fact, the head volume, retention, and lacing characteristics were superior on the beer brewed without any Carapils.
 

peterlonz

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Re-reading this thread & noting the op's request: "how much Maltodextrin should I add", I wonder if we have drifted off subject.
If the general conclusion is "don't add any" - fine, but this could only be based an the assumption that the extract wort itself is adequate?
And for the record just why is carapils malt worthless?
 

AZCoolerBrewer

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Re-reading this thread & noting the op's request: "how much Maltodextrin should I add", I wonder if we have drifted off subject.
If the general conclusion is "don't add any" - fine, but this could only be based an the assumption that the extract wort itself is adequate?
And for the record just why is carapils malt worthless?
I agree, I have had excellent results with carapils, it made such a nice fluffy head that I put too much in my next batch and had a problem with too much foam. I have great results when I use it at about 5% of my grist. As far as maltodextrine, does anybody add it as a discrete ingredient? I’m sure you could get it somewhere, but I’ve never gone looking for it or seen it at the LHBS.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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When I used it, which is exactly once, I added half a pound of maltodextrin to an approximately 5.7 gallons in the fermenter size batch. I added it to the wort right after the boil and stirred it in. I can vouch that in the end it added no sweetness or any other noticeable taste that I could perceive. I can also vouch that it raised the gravity at that juncture, and that the FG was higher than it would have been without it, so most of it did not ferment. But since I did not make a split batch, with one half free of it, and the other half containing it, I can't tell just how much it led to a perception of better mouthfeel fullness, or how much it improved head retention. In reality my thought was that it pretty much did nothing, so I've never added it again. I've made nominally the same recipe twice since, with some admitted minor tweaking with regard to grist quantities (as per my habit), and with no maltodextrin added, and to me it has tasted about the same both times as it did with the maltodextrin added, and head retention and lacing were also about the same. But about 4-5 months had gone by between batches, so at that juncture its quite hard to actually judge the level of sameness.
 
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dmtaylor

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Re-reading this thread & noting the op's request: "how much Maltodextrin should I add", I wonder if we have drifted off subject.
If the general conclusion is "don't add any" - fine, but this could only be based an the assumption that the extract wort itself is adequate?
And for the record just why is carapils malt worthless?
We have not drifted off topic very far.

The general conclusion is based on the FACT that extract itself is adequate.

Carapils doesn't do what anyone says it does. Some helpful reading:

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/
 
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