Making home wine is dangerous...

[Brew_Dude41]

That’s not the worst danger.

The worst danger is much bigger. What happens is that you feel the need to make wine out of everything you see, including huge vats of cranberry sauce. You buy more and more carboys, bottling equipment, a wine press, an apple cider press, and it takes over your entire basement. Then you have 15 carboys behind your couch for a year or two. Next, you start making beer because the wine takes too long. That leads to an all-electric 1/2 barrel brewery and a huge kegging setup and three kegerator. Well, once you have the kegs you realize that wine ages best in stainless, so you start with that process too.

Of course, that leads to mead, kombucha, and fermented foods.

Before you know it, you’re the Admin of a homebrew forum, doing speaking engagements at HomebrewCon each year, becoming a BJCP beer judge, writing articles for publications, appearing on podcasts, and more.

So yes. Making wine at home is VERY dangerous. I’d strongly recommend stopping now while you still have the chance. Once it’s too late, it’s too late.

I don't know, this story sounds quite far fetched. I don't think that anyone actually believes that.

There is no way your brewery is only a 1/2 bbl...

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I don't know, this story sounds quite far fetched. I don't think that anyone actually believes that.

There is no way your brewery is only a 1/2 bbl...

It can happen...

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Please tell.. what's the duck for? and indeed the duck cupboard?

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Next, you start making beer because the wine takes too long.

O lor... I'm only here so far....

 

[Seamonkey84]

Please tell.. what's the duck for? and indeed the duck cupboard?

View attachment 671648

Now I’m curious too!

 

[Brewbuzzard]

My last dog was named Augie Doggie and he never missed a brew day. Augie was an 85 lb American Pit Bull Terrier and a big ole baby with people. He was taken early unfortunately. The bird was Augie's first toy and I keep it in the brewery to watch over all brews, he is the brewery guardian. He is missed

 

[Mumathomebrew]

Bless you and him. I love that. Shows his spirit lives on to make us notice him then....

 

[Jeff...]

Last year I tried to make wine out of dried cranberries. I have no idea what they coated those cranberries with. But I can tell you yes if I would have drank it, it would have been dangerous alright and most likely would have made you sick. That is if I could have got past the smell of barf first. It went down the drain and into the septic tank.

I've made quite a few wines, the dried cranberry wine, was the only one I would consider dangerous. Although some were pretty high alochol content (rocket fuel). Those could also be dangerous if you drank to much.

As a matter of fact if you see my profile picture that's my wife's 130lb Rottweiler, who loves my wine. I can't leave a glass on the table and go to the bathroom. He'll lick the glass dry. Then he comes stumbling into the living room, gets on the couch, flips over on his back and goes to sleep. I guess being on his back, makes the world stop spinning or something.

 

[Tral]

I remember the taste of elderberry wine as a child. Made with wild fruit in an old oak cask and then balloons as air break.
Friends from the Mediterranean have lots of fear of methanol and refuse to drink the wine I make today. I’m still trying to match the wonderful wine my folks made.

 

[fluketamer]

hi welcome to homebrewtalk. this is an old thread.

i dont think yo can make methanol without a still in any significant amount.

whats your wine recipe like now, im sure there are plenty on here who can help .

 

[bernardsmith]

There could be microscopic amounts of methanol in any wine made from fruit. I believe the methanol is a product of the stems and skins of the fruit and not so much the fruit itself, but the amount is something like 50 - 100 mg of methanol in every liter. That suggests that you may need to drink about 20 liters to consume an amount of methanol that is dangerous to your sight and health. A bottle of wine is around 750 ml - so about 27 -30 bottles of wine at about 12 14% ABV. Sounds like your friends have an excess amount of caution. But that's OK. That just leaves more of the wine that you and your other friends make for yourselves. Enjoy in good jhealth.

 

[mac_1103]

i dont think yo can make methanol without a still in any significant amount

This is basically why it's legal to make your own wine for personal consumption but not legal to distill spirits (although that may be changing soon).

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Thanks guys...How do i know if I have a bad batch?...is it bad taste?

It doesn't taste good

 

[fluketamer]

There could be microscopic amounts of methanol in any wine made from fruit. I believe the methanol is a product of the stems and skins of the fruit and not so much the fruit itself, but the amount is something like 50 - 100 mg of methanol in every liter. That suggests that you may need to drink about 20 liters to consume an amount of methanol that is dangerous to your sight and health. A bottle of wine is around 750 ml - so about 27 -30 bottles of wine at about 12 14% ABV. Sounds like your friends have an excess amount of caution. But that's OK. That just leaves more of the wine that you and your other friends make for yourselves. Enjoy in good jhealth.

27 bottles of wine would stop your breathing from the regular alcohol in there way before any wood alcohol would do anything to you.. also you wouldnt be able to imbibe more than several bottles without somone actively forcing it into you. so it is impossible for you to drink enough methanol to harm you from homemade wine.

 

[bernardsmith]

This is basically why it's legal to make your own wine for personal consumption but not legal to distill spirits (although that may be changing soon).

But to be very accurate, distillation does not in fact PRODUCE a single molecule of methanol. It simply CONCENTRATES any methanol already in wine that is produced through fermentation. If you pour a gallon of 12% ABV wine into a still and heat the still to remove the water, you will have at BEST produced 1 pint of spirits at nominally 100% ABV (200 proof) and that one pint will now likely contain 100 percent of any methanol that was in that gallon of wine (or wash or mash). That's why distillers typically collect the first - what? 50 ml (per gallon) of ethanol that is collected from the still and use it for cleaning tools or as a fire starter

 

[Brew_Dude41]

This is basically why it's legal to make your own wine for personal consumption but not legal to distill spirits (although that may be changing soon).

Make no doubt about it, the reason government prohibits private distillation (moonshin'in) is not to protect us from methanol poisoning, it is for tax revenue. If we all were able legally distill for "own consumption" there would be a huge loss in tax revenue.
I don't suspect that is going to change or that distilling alcohol at a homebrew level will be legalized federally in my lifetime.

 

[mac_1103]

If we all were able legally distill for "own consumption" there would be a huge loss in tax revenue.

They could make up the revenue by taxing the raw materials, requiring annual inspections of the equipment, etc.

I don't suspect that is going to change or that distilling alcohol at a homebrew level will be legalized federally in my lifetime.

There was a recent court decision that some thought had the potential to pave the way toward legalization of home distilling. We had a thread about it.

 

[bernardsmith]

Make no doubt about it, the reason government prohibits private distillation (moonshin'in) is not to protect us from methanol poisoning, it is for tax revenue. If we all were able legally distill for "own consumption" there would be a huge loss in tax revenue.
I don't suspect that is going to change or that distilling alcohol at a homebrew level will be legalized federally in my lifetime.

So very strongly agree with your point that it's the fear of a loss in revenue and not health that prevents the government from legalizing home distillation. But the irony is that data suggest that legalizing distilling with the same restrictions as home brewing and wine making would in fact RAISE revenue as many, many people who have no interest in home distilling but are introduced to the products of their neighbors' and friends' and relatives' stills would likely seek to purchase spirits and liqueurs they may not have otherwise tasted and enjoyed. That home distillers themselves, would not necessarily buy more spirits if distillation was legalized does not mean that the total amount of spirits PURCHASED would fall.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

It's not just the TTB that cares about home distillation - and in fact I don't think they even give a crap cuz they are so understaffed to deal with the legits, never mind hobbyists or bootleggers. But look at who else stands to lose out even more... the Diageos & Pernod Ricards, etc. They are the ones putting pressure on congress to keep it down.
It gets a little closer each congressional session. I think it'll pass in the next 5 years. It's a matter of Uncle Sam figuring out how he will get his cut

 

[Brew_Dude41]

It's not just the TTB that cares about home distillation - and in fact I don't think they even give a crap cuz they are so understaffed to deal with the legits, never mind hobbyists or bootleggers. But look at who else stands to lose out even more... the Diageos & Pernod Ricards, etc. They are the ones putting pressure on congress to keep it down.
It gets a little closer each congressional session. I think it'll pass in the next 5 years. It's a matter of Uncle Sam figuring out how he will get his cut

Very true.
I would still be surprised to see it get passed any time soon.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

They could make up the revenue by taxing the raw materials, requiring annual inspections of the equipment, etc.

There was a recent court decision that some thought had the potential to pave the way toward legalization of home distilling. We had a thread about it.

It’s more than the taxes; it’s politics. The commercial distilleries put lots of money into the pockets of politicians with the understanding that if the politicians continue to protect their monopoly on distilled spirits, the money to their respective campaigns will continue to flow. It’s not safety; it’s not taxes; it’s just plain old greed and self-interest.

 

[bwible]

But to be very accurate, distillation does not in fact PRODUCE a single molecule of methanol. It simply CONCENTRATES any methanol already in wine that is produced through fermentation. If you pour a gallon of 12% ABV wine into a still and heat the still to remove the water, you will have at BEST produced 1 pint of spirits at nominally 100% ABV (200 proof) and that one pint will now likely contain 100 percent of any methanol that was in that gallon of wine (or wash or mash). That's why distillers typically collect the first - what? 50 ml (per gallon) of ethanol that is collected from the still and use it for cleaning tools or as a fire starter

I’m not a distiller, never did it. General reading - my understanding is methanol has a lower boiling point than the ethanol we want. Thats why most of it comes out in the first measure that gets discarded. Its the first thing to boil off.

 

[bwible]

It’s more than the taxes; it’s politics. The commercial distilleries put lots of money into the pockets of politicians with the understanding that if the politicians continue to protect their monopoly on distilled spirits, the money to their respective campaigns will continue to flow. It’s not safety; it’s not taxes; it’s just plain old greed and self-interest.

With all the shortages of good stuff everywhere - I’m sure people can list all their favorite bourbons that have become limited and hard to come by now - Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Blantons, Pappy, etc, etc, PLUS all the things that have doubled or sometimes tripled in price, like McKenna, maybe its time people be allowed to learn to distill their own. Even if you had to pay to take a training or something. The whole bourbon industry seems to be driven by shortages and hoarding the past 5 years or so.

 

[hungupdown]

Potato wine is only one I've particularly avoided, as Potatoes, and some other root veg, can harbor C. botulinum spores. These spores can thrive, in a warm; wet; low acidity environment. So potato wine, sometimes get noted as source, among the annual figures for recorded Botulism cases.

Rhubarb, particularly it's leaves, contains oxalic acid, which can destroy brain cells. But so so long as you only ferment the stalks, your pretty safe. I think the calculated safe consumption (for oxalic acid content), was around a gallon of rhubarb wine per day!

 

[IAmPistolPete]

I’m not a distiller, never did it. General reading - my understanding is methanol has a lower boiling point than the ethanol we want. Thats why most of it comes out in the first measure that gets discarded. Its the first thing to boil off.

That's what we all learned in HighSchool chemistry class but in real life the methanol comes out during the entire run and has been proven to come out slightly stronger in the tails portion of the run due to its strong affinity to hang on to water molecules. [hydrogen bonding] The foreshots/early heads are usually acetones, propanols and other higher alcohols.

With all the shortages of good stuff everywhere - I’m sure people can list all their favorite bourbons that have become limited and hard to come by now - Buffalo Trace, Eagle Rare, Blantons, Pappy, etc, etc, PLUS all the things that have doubled or sometimes tripled in price, like McKenna, maybe its time people be allowed to learn to distill their own. Even if you had to pay to take a training or something. The whole bourbon industry seems to be driven by shortages and hoarding the past 5 years or so.

Supply & demand [aka marketing] has driven up the prices to ridiculousness. You can make a really good whiskey at home with under a year of aging. But you have to be willing to wait the year to find out if you really like what you made. If you don't have the time or the patience[American consumer] to invest in producing it then just swipe a credit card and post a pic of the label on Insta

 

[bernardsmith]

That's what we all learned in HighSchool chemistry class but in real life the methanol comes out during the entire run and has been proven to come out slightly stronger in the tails portion of the run due to its strong affinity to hang on to water molecules. [hydrogen bonding] The foreshots/early heads are usually acetones, propanols and other higher alcohols.

This is my understanding, too - that methanol IN FACT is more likely to be collected in the tails, which is why I collect neither heads nor tails and because my wash is invariably from whey I ferment as a waste product from my cheese-making, I am not looking for more than 1 pint from every gallon of whey wine (12-14% ABV). That said, I am unclear whether whey wine does contain any methanol, as the source of the milk is grass, hay, corn and soybeans, so nothing woody... But my chemistry concluded in secondary school, so I plead ignorance about the organic sources of methanol in wine.

 

[bernardsmith]

It’s more than the taxes; it’s politics. The commercial distilleries put lots of money into the pockets of politicians with the understanding that if the politicians continue to protect their monopoly on distilled spirits, the money to their respective campaigns will continue to flow. It’s not safety; it’s not taxes; it’s just plain old greed and self-interest.

In the US, lining politicians' pockets with money is called "lobbying", in the rest of the world, that's called bribery. It's about time, we called lobbying what it really is. To lobby, is to explain and argue with the goal of convincing others of your argument. To bribe is simply to stuff enough $$$ in the hands of those who would otherwise not find your arguments convincing.