Making a starter...first time

[CTS]

Hello all,

So this Sunday I am making an Octoberfest Lager. After making 5 beers from liquid yeast and not using a starter I read that you should every time. So I have some questions....

1. Will this get me a better taste due to the faster fermentation?

2. I will be using a 1.5 litter water bottle because I don't have all the other equipment yet. Will this work? How often do I have to swirl it around?

3. Will it not create krausen and go all over the place?

4. I also plan on starting it 24 hrs before I brew I'm guessing that's plenty of time?

5. Will the dry DME add any off flavors to an all grain batch?

6. Anyone care to share the dry DME to water ratio?

I think that is all, sorry for all the questions I just don't want to mess this up.

Thanks!!

Chad

 

[thasnazzle]

1. Your yeast will be less stressed, which will decrease off flavors. I don't know that a faster fermentation will change the flavor.

2. That should be fine, just make sure that you put sanitized foil on top rather than screwing on the lid.

3. If you do the above and leave some headspace, you shouldn't have that problem, though you may want to continue checking.

4. Probably not. check mrmalty.com to see how much you need to be pitching. It will probably take a while, since lagers need higher pitch rates.

5. Probably not, but you can decant if you're worried about it.

6. Typically 1.03 or so is a good OG for starters.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Good info above.

Also check out yeastcalc.com. Once there, you'll be able to quickly and effortlessly calculate the actual cell count and starter size needed for your particular brew. It also has a calculator for DME to water ratio based on your starter size.

 

[CTS]

Excellent. Thanks for the help.

 

[mopillar]

As far as how often to swirl it around is whenever you happen to go by it. That's what I did before I built the computer fan stir plate and it worked well. The yeast calc has input for which method you are using to get an estimate on output.

 

[duboman]

I like to use a 10:1 ratio by weight:volume

1L starter=100 grams DME to 1L of water
1.5l starter = 150 grams DME to 1.5L water

I like to weigh my DME as I think it's more accurate

 

[pabloj13]

I like to use a 10:1 ratio by weight:volume

1L starter=100 grams DME to 1L of water
1.5l starter = 150 grams DME to 1.5L water

I like to weigh my DME as I think it's more accurate

That's 10:1 volume:weight, btw.

 

[duboman]

That's 10:1 volume:weight, btw.

 

[Slyko]

I've had very good results with starters & the DIY stir plate. My LHBS simply said to put 1 cup of light DME for a 2 liter starter. This is assuming you're brewing a 5 gallon batch.

It's worked again & again for me!

 

[pabloj13]

I've had very good results with starters & the DIY stir plate. My LHBS simply said to put 1 cup of light DME for a 2 liter starter. This is assuming you're brewing a 5 gallon batch.

It's worked again & again for me!

That's probably a little low on the OG, but not going to hurt anything. According to this site, a cup of DME is ~132g. You'd be better at ~1.5 cups. But it's better than nothing!

 

[CTS]

Excellent information everyone thanks. One thing i cant find is how long to have the starter going before I pitch it, and does it matter what temp it "ferments" at seeing as I will be decanting the liquid of the top?

 

[duboman]

Excellent information everyone thanks. One thing i cant find is how long to have the starter going before I pitch it, and does it matter what temp it "ferments" at seeing as I will be decanting the liquid of the top?

A 2L starter will usually ferment out within 24 hrs or less and temp is really not a concern as long as its not too hot, mine average between 70 and 80.

 

[CTS]

A 2L starter will usually ferment out within 24 hrs or less and temp is really not a concern as long as its not too hot, mine average between 70 and 80.

thanks!

Also I only have one vial but Mr malty calls for 2, I don't really have a choice as I cant get the same one from any LHBS is this going to cause a problem...I'm guessing just a smaller cell count of yeast.

 

[pabloj13]

thanks!

Also I only have one vial but Mr malty calls for 2, I don't really have a choice as I cant get the same one from any LHBS is this going to cause a problem...I'm guessing just a smaller cell count of yeast.

Do you have time to do another step before brew day? Go to yeastcalc.com and you can do a two step starter to get the cell counts you need. Actually cheaper than buying two vials.

2L starter>cold crash and decant>another starter>cold crash and decant>...>profit.

 

[kh54s10]

thanks!

Also I only have one vial but Mr malty calls for 2, I don't really have a choice as I cant get the same one from any LHBS is this going to cause a problem...I'm guessing just a smaller cell count of yeast.

Change the size of your starter. A larger starter for less fresh yeast needed.
Or do a step starter. Check yeastcalc.com for step starter information.

A stirplate also allows for larger yeast growth in a smaller starter.

 

[ruralbrew]

I am planning on using liquid yeast for the first time. The production date on my smackpack is 1/16/12. Both Mr Malty and Yeastcalc say the viability of the yeast is down to 10%. Does liquid yeast actually lose viability that quickly? Even if kept refrigerated?

If so it looks as if I am going to have to do a stepped starter. Either that or I might as well make the starter in my carboy. This is going to mess up my brew schedule.

 

[duboman]

I am planning on using liquid yeast for the first time. The production date on my smackpack is 1/16/12. Both Mr Malty and Yeastcalc say the viability of the yeast is down to 10%. Does liquid yeast actually lose viability that quickly? Even if kept refrigerated?

If so it looks as if I am going to have to do a stepped starter. Either that or I might as well make the starter in my carboy. This is going to mess up my brew schedule.

Quickly??? It's almost 6 months old, if you don't have time to step get a fresh pack

 

[Bamsdealer]

Yeah... that's old for liquid yeast. Did you buy it recently? If so, I'd request that they give you a fresh pack at no cost.

Also, if you're decanting the liquid off the top I'd chill it for 24 hours to make sure most of the healthy yeast drop out.

 

[NuclearRich]

Ive used some ancient smack packs, and while the viability is lower, it is still going to grow. Think about it: people harvest yeast from bottles that have been sitting for god knows how long and make starters just fine. Stepping up the yeast is the idea.

I would do a step starter for sure if you have 2 days

 

[ruralbrew]

Hmmm, I didn't realize liquid yeast got "old" so quick. I guess when you are used to dry, six months doesn't seem so long.

So if I step it up, obviously it won't be ready for tomorrow, but if it is chilled and kept in the fridge for a couple days that shouldn't hurt anything, should it?

 

[NuclearRich]

just like dad always says, keep it covered young man and you will be fine

 

[ruralbrew]

Crap, I never got that advice. Oh well.

I have my starter going. I guess tomorrow I will put it in the fridge to crash the yeast, siphon off what I can and then do it all over again. Thanks for your advice, from now on I will pick up my liquid yeasts closer to brew day.

 

[NuclearRich]

eh, dont stress about the freshest yeast possible, like i said it will still grow. I usually get yeast for a few months worth and make starters, it grows. It works. If its getting a few months on, and you are worried just step the starter up one or two times. Plan ahead for your brew, you will be fine.

 

[CTS]

So looks like I will be doing a step starter for this brew. After I am done with the second starter how long can it cold crash for? This process is going to mess up my brew schedule and I will be back at work with no time to brew. I am hoping that it can sit in the fridge for at least 5 days maybe less. Will this be ok?

 

[CTS]

So I typed the info into YeastCalc and got the following...if I am reading it right I wont have to do a step starter because my total cell count will be almost double then what I need at 712...correct?

 

[pabloj13]

So looks like I will be doing a step starter for this brew. After I am done with the second starter how long can it cold crash for? This process is going to mess up my brew schedule and I will be back at work with no time to brew. I am hoping that it can sit in the fridge for at least 5 days maybe less. Will this be ok?

Yes, that will be fine. I often start my starters a week ahead of time so that I have plenty of time to finish them before brew day. Then they just chill in the fridge.

 

[LLBeanJ]

So I typed the info into YeastCalc and got the following...if I am reading it right I wont have to do a step starter because my total cell count will be almost double then what I need at 712...correct?

Not really. The 351B cells at the top is telling you how many cells you should be starting with when you pitch. The 712 at the bottom is how many you will have once they've chewed through all you wort. You can also look at pitching rate, which should be 18.5 million cells/ml. If you pitch after only one step, you're only pitching 7.6 million cells/ml, which is only about 40% of the total needed.

 

[CTS]

Not really. The 351B cells at the top is telling you how many cells you should be starting with when you pitch. The 712 at the bottom is how many you will have once they've chewed through all you wort. You can also look at pitching rate, which should be 18.5 million cells/ml. If you pitch after only one step, you're only pitching 7.6 million cells/ml, which is only about 40% of the total needed.

Thank you very much, that calculator makes total sense now. I will be doing a 2 step starter and will be just under what I need.

 

[CTS]

Ok so I made a starter 5 days ago Sunday at 4PM it is now Thursday morning and I still have not seen anything happening. yesterday it had a bit of white foam on top but now its gone. How do I know when it is done fermenting? I guess I could take a gravity reading and find out...it was 1.044 when it started out. Thanks again!!

 

[LLBeanJ]

Gravity reading will definitely tell you. Also, the liquid will change color. It will turn from a translucent light brown to a creamy tan as the cell count goes up. I can always tell when it's done just by looking at it.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Something I just noticed in your yeastcalc screenshot is that you didn't select a method of aeration. If you don't have a stir plate and are just giving it a swirl once an hour or a few times a day, choose "Intermittent Shaking", as it will calculate a larger cell count as opposed to selecting "None".

 

[CTS]

Good eye! I also noticed that and changed it before I printed out the calculations. I have "Intermittent Shaking" as I only shake it when i walk by.

So I just took a reading and its at 1.032...looks like it started but then stopped. It is definitely a more creamier color then when it started, I was shaking it when the fermenting had started but it seemed to stop after i shook it a few times...bad idea? Im guessing the gravity should finish up around 1.010?

I'm lost on what to do. Its a lager yeast and it is sitting in my kitchen at room temp. 23C

Keep shaking and waiting?

 

[LLBeanJ]

I've never used a lager yeast, but I don't believe it would react any differently than an ale strain. I've also never checked FG on a starter, so I really don't know where it is supposed to finish, though common sense would lead one to believe it should finish much lower. The change in color sounds promising, however. You could cold crash it now for 24 hours and see how much settles out.

 

[CTS]

So I am guess I could just cold crash it then do the 2nd step then?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Correct. Decant off the liquid and add the wort for step 2.

 

[CTS]

Will do, Thanks for the help!

 

[Bamsdealer]

I had a similar issue with my lager starter when using liquid yeast. After a couple days, the wort was still sweet. never took a gravity reading but I'm guessing it didn't go down 10 points. Shook it a lot as I walked by.

I brewed anyway and just pitched in the 2 L starter. To my surprise, I had airlock activity when I woke up in the morning. I racked the pilsner for lagering yesterday and the sample tasted great. Despite the quick start, it never got going really good (probably due to underpitching the yeast) and took over 2 weeks to get down to 1.02, at which point I raised up the temp for a D rest. 5 days later and it was down to 1.011.

 

[CTS]

I had a similar issue with my lager starter when using liquid yeast. After a couple days, the wort was still sweet. never took a gravity reading but I'm guessing it didn't go down 10 points. Shook it a lot as I walked by.

I brewed anyway and just pitched in the 2 L starter. To my surprise, I had airlock activity when I woke up in the morning. I racked the pilsner for lagering yesterday and the sample tasted great. Despite the quick start, it never got going really good (probably due to underpitching the yeast) and took over 2 weeks to get down to 1.02, at which point I raised up the temp for a D rest. 5 days later and it was down to 1.011.

Good to know, gives me hope that mine will still workout. Going to do the 2nd step today. Hoping that will take off faster then the first one did. Might even do a 3rd step if this one works well.

Ah the joys of Home brewing!!!

 

[CTS]

So i just took the starter out of the fridge after cold crashing it for 24hrs and got this....seems like something is wrong. What is the black stuff? Dead yeast?

 

[duboman]

So i just took the starter out of the fridge after cold crashing it for 24hrs and got this....seems like something is wrong. What is the black stuff? Dead yeast?

Not 100% sure but it looks to be infected, how was your sanitizing process?

All the yeast should be a nice milky white, definitely not black stuff. Was there anything off color prior to cold crashing it?