Made some changes and improved my efficiency

[ryanj]

Since upgrading my equipment to an electric HERMS setup, I've been getting 82% mash efficiencies on the nose every time. I'm pretty happy with that.

My brewhouse efficiency on the other hand has been a little all over the place, and I believe that's because I've done a poor job of measuring my volumes. Around the same time I upgraded to a HERMS system, I also bought an Anvil Bucket Fermentor. I was warned that the volume markings were a little low, but instead of measuring for myself, I always just guessed how far they were off.

Before brewing my latest batch of beer, I decided to just be done with it and measure it properly. I found out that the Anvil 5 gallon mark is actually 5.5 gallons, so I can safely assume that the markings are about 1/2 gallon low. I also devised a way to push more beer through my chiller to make sure I recover as much liquid as possible. This allowed me to drop my volume loss from the BK to FV from 1/2 gallon to 1/4 gallon.

I wound up with a 72% brewhouse efficiency which is quite a bit better than my last batch where I barely hit ~68%. My main problem is I put too much in the fermentor and did a bad job of recovering the liquid in my counterflow chiller.

Now, I realize that BH efficiency can never be more than your mash efficiency. I also realize that because of my hoses, pump, and chiller, I'll always have some volume loss which will bring my BH efficiency down.

Now, I realize this is a very subjective topic, and I also realize consistency is more important than efficiency, but I'm a numbers guy and I hate leaving anything on the table. Is 82% mash efficiency and 72% BH efficiency considered a respectable outcome?

 

[IslandLizard]

82% mash efficiency for 1.050-1.070 beers is very decent. 72% BH efficiency is not bad either, it can probably be improved a bit by perfecting some processes and reduce losses along the way.

I get around 85% using a simple cooler mash tun and batch sparging (2x equal volumes). There's 0 deadspace, which helps a lot. I crush barley at a 0.034" gap while wheat, rye, flaked goods, and other small kernel malts get crushed separately at a 0.028" gap. So check your crush, it could make a difference.

I never calculate or even look closely at BH efficiency. Now you got me thinking, I really should!

I have BS set to 75% BH efficiency.
When I design or compound a recipe in BS for a 5.5 gallon batch, that's usually what I get in the fermenter after I drain or blow the wort out of my pump, hoses and plate chiller, which is around 1 quart. Because of the plate chiller, I use hop bags during the boil, and they get squeezed dry during the chilling cycle (using silicone mitts). There's usually 2-3 quarts of trub left in the kettle. I often reclaim 1-2 quarts of wort from that trub. I either use that to top up the (bucket) fermenter somewhat, when fermentation is slowing down. Or use some to make sugar syrups from and dilute them with when adding, again, when fermentation is slowing down.

So I guess I'm around 75% BH.
A little higher after the wort reclamation process from the trub, which is not routinely done by most brewers, but I see as a "free" bonus under the motto: No wort left behind!

 

[RM-MN]

Now, I realize this is a very subjective topic, and I also realize consistency is more important than efficiency, but I'm a numbers guy and I hate leaving anything on the table. Is 82% mash efficiency and 72% BH efficiency considered a respectable outcome?

Your mash efficiency is directly controlled by the milling of the grain and could be into the 90's but to get there brings in the chance of stuck mash or sparge. Adding rice hulls to increase the filter area can help and a longer mash may help some too. If you get mash efficiency of 90%, do a great job of lautering and get all of the wort to the fermenter, your brewhouse efficiency can be into the 80's.

 

[ryanj]

Your mash efficiency is directly controlled by the milling of the grain and could be into the 90's but to get there brings in the chance of stuck mash or sparge. Adding rice hulls to increase the filter area can help and a longer mash may help some too. If you get mash efficiency of 90%, do a great job of lautering and get all of the wort to the fermenter, your brewhouse efficiency can be into the 80's.

While this information has always been known to me, for some reason when I read your reply you made me realize I'm at a "good enough" spot.

Sure, I could get my mash efficiency into the 90s... but I already do a 60 min mash (most of the time with rice hulls because I brew with a lot of sticky mashes), I mash out, and I typically hit 45+min fly sparges. I also could tighten up my mill a few more points to grab a few more efficiency points, but then I run the risk of a stuck mash/sparge.

I guess a 10% drop from mash to brewhouse efficiency is typical for most brewing styles and equipment. I think I'm going to just call this good and keep doing what I'm doing.

 

[mongoose33]

I also devised a way to push more beer through my chiller to make sure I recover as much liquid as possible. This allowed me to drop my volume loss from the BK to FV from 1/2 gallon to 1/4 gallon.

What are you doing to accomplish this?

 

[ryanj]

What are you doing to accomplish this?

After my BK empties, I cut the power to the pump. I then remove the hose from the BK outlet, and connect it to my oxygen tank/regular (that I use for oxygenating once everything is in the fermenter). I then add a small amount of pressure to push the remaining liquid in the lines clear.

I still need to work on my technique. I got a little carried away and pushed too much gas which just forced its way through the liquid and caused a bunch of bubbles. I was able to recover some volume loss, though. Got the idea from someone in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...iller-killing-my-brewhouse-efficiency.660127/

I believe they were using CO2, but technically there's nothing wrong with using O2 since I already have it out to oxygenate the wort before pitching.

*edit*
...oh, right. You were said poster.

 

[mongoose33]

After my BK empties, I cut the power to the pump. I then remove the hose from the BK outlet, and connect it to my oxygen tank/regular (that I use for oxygenating once everything is in the fermenter). I then add a small amount of pressure to push the remaining liquid in the lines clear.

I still need to work on my technique. I got a little carried away and pushed too much gas which just forced its way through the liquid and caused a bunch of bubbles. I was able to recover some volume loss, though. Got the idea from someone in this thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...iller-killing-my-brewhouse-efficiency.660127/

I believe they were using CO2, but technically there's nothing wrong with using O2 since I already have it out to oxygenate the wort before pitching.

*edit*
...oh, right. You were said poster.

Yeah....the reason I asked is I'd wondered if you'd found a better way or some such. I use the CO2 because it's much cheaper than O2, but only for that reason.

What I wish I had was a valve that would make cutting off the CO2 easier and faster. One hand on the pump, one hand on the valve....

Something of the same form factor as a ball valve. Not sure if one of those would work to seal off CO2....

 

[ryanj]

Yeah....the reason I asked is I'd wondered if you'd found a better way or some such. I use the CO2 because it's much cheaper than O2, but only for that reason.

What I wish I had was a valve that would make cutting off the CO2 easier and faster. One hand on the pump, one hand on the valve....

Something of the same form factor as a ball valve. Not sure if one of those would work to seal off CO2....

Absolutely they would work. Take a look: https://www.kegworks.com/inline-ball-valve-shut-off

I have 1 tank that has a tee with 2 ball valves to go to each keg in my kegerator. They do the job just fine for shutting off co2 to one keg while I force carb the other at ~20-25psi.

You could put one of those ball valves right before the male camlock so you can cut the gas quick.

 

[mongoose33]

Absolutely they would work. Take a look: https://www.kegworks.com/inline-ball-valve-shut-off

I have 1 tank that has a tee with 2 ball valves to go to each keg in my kegerator. They do the job just fine for shutting off co2 to one keg while I force carb the other at ~20-25psi.

You could put one of those ball valves right before the male camlock so you can cut the gas quick.

Actually, I have one of those...what i found is when I'm in a hurry to shut it off, it's...not that easy to do. What I want is a ball valve similar in size to a regular ball valve on a kettle, something I could mount to my bench and simply flip the handle when I need to stop the pressure.

I was looking at Menards, they seem to have some ball valves designed for compressed air and such, I may try one of those.

Something like this:

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...698-c-9425.htm?tid=7667033551110456805&ipos=2

Mounting and plumbing the connections will be an issue...but I think I can do it.

 

[ryanj]

Actually, I have one of those...what i found is when I'm in a hurry to shut it off, it's...not that easy to do. What I want is a ball valve similar in size to a regular ball valve on a kettle, something I could mount to my bench and simply flip the handle when I need to stop the pressure.

I was looking at Menards, they seem to have some ball valves designed for compressed air and such, I may try one of those.

Something like this:

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbi...698-c-9425.htm?tid=7667033551110456805&ipos=2

Mounting and plumbing the connections will be an issue...but I think I can do it.

Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, you definitely need 2 hands for that mini ball valve.

This one from home depot is rated to 200psi:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-...ith-Drain-and-Mounting-Pad-APXV12WD/305454532

and it has a nice little mounting pad built in. You could always go to home depot and look for something with 1/2 NPT threads so you can add whatever size barbs you want.

 

[mongoose33]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, you definitely need 2 hands for that mini ball valve.

This one from home depot is rated to 200psi:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-...ith-Drain-and-Mounting-Pad-APXV12WD/305454532

and it has a nice little mounting pad built in. You could always go to home depot and look for something with 1/2 NPT threads so you can add whatever size barbs you want.

I'd seen some like that, but the one you link to is for water; do those work effectively with gas?

 

[Vale71]

Just get a regular 1/2" NPT ball valve. They work just as fine with gases unless we're talking about >100bar. There's one on the end of every SSB Unitank blow-off cane and it works just fine up to 2 bar (mine does anyway). You could save a couple of bucks and get one made of brass at your local home depot or get a stainless one anyway and you'd have a spare on hand in case a valve were to fail on one of your kettles.

 

[ryanj]

Just get a regular 1/2" NPT ball valve. They work just as fine with gases unless we're talking about >100bar. There's one on the end of every SSB Unitank blow-off cane and it works just fine up to 2 bar (mine does anyway). You could save a couple of bucks and get one made of brass at your local home depot or get a stainless one anyway and you'd have a spare on hand in case a valve were to fail on one of your kettles.

I’d have to agree with this. I assume most ball valves would work for the kind of pressure you’d be using to push wort — especially since it will only be for a very short period of time.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

While this information has always been known to me, for some reason when I read your reply you made me realize I'm at a "good enough" spot.

I would agree. I have thought about responding to this thread a few times. Your numbers are decent enough and 70% to 75% was where I was with my fly sparge system. I have been getting higher since I moved to BIAB, but that is just because it is a different process. You might be able to squeeze out 5% and it is worth fixing easy issues (like standing wort in your chiller), but 5% is like $0.50 worth of base malt for a 5 gal batch.

 

[ryanj]

I would agree. I have thought about responding to this thread a few times. Your numbers are decent enough and 70% to 75% was where I was with my fly sparge system. I have been getting higher since I moved to BIAB, but that is just because it is a different process. You might be able to squeeze out 5% and it is worth fixing easy issues (like standing wort in your chiller), but 5% is like $0.50 worth of base malt for a 5 gal batch.

Right on. I'm quite pleased with my 82% mash efficiency. I'm sure I could tighten my mill gap and bring that to upper 80s, but I don't want the problems that will come with that -- especially since I'm constantly recirculating.

My biggest hang up was wondering if a 10% drop from mash to brewhouse efficiency was normal...and it seems to be. So, good enough.

Also, I started using Brewfather which (in my humble opinion) is WAY better than 90% of the garbage brewing software out there. I'll now be able track my mash/bh efficiencies a bit more consistently.

So now...time to brew!

 

[jeeppilot]

Right on. I'm quite pleased with my 82% mash efficiency. I'm sure I could tighten my mill gap and bring that to upper 80s, but I don't want the problems that will come with that -- especially since I'm constantly recirculating.

My biggest hang up was wondering if a 10% drop from mash to brewhouse efficiency was normal...and it seems to be. So, good enough.

Also, I started using Brewfather which (in my humble opinion) is WAY better than 90% of the garbage brewing software out there. I'll now be able track my mash/bh efficiencies a bit more consistently.

So now...time to brew!

I have this exact same issue. About 8-10% loss from my BK to the fermenter via a pump and CFC. In fact I just posted about this a week ago. Based on those responses, I think at least half of my losses are in the pump and hoses so I’m revisiting just using gravity to feed my CFC. Making sure the coil is level will be important.

I’m considering another response which used water to push the remaining wort through. This would work great for a 3 vessel setup...just having a little extra spare water left over to push through, but as a BIAB guy, I’m not sure how to do this without a bunch of extra work.