Lower the bag/basket or raise the water?

[ebstauffer]

Equip: 80 quart Concord w/ ColoBrewSys solid-sided basket; 5500 watt element.

My problem: 5 gallon batches are a challenge. the bottom mesh of my basket is about 2 1/2" off the bottom of the kettle. At 18" diameter that's 1.1 gallons per inch of height. So before I even start my grain is mashing in 3 gallons less water which makes things a bit thick.

One thought is to make some basket height adjustments. However, the bottom of the basket is about an inch away from the element so lowering the basket might not be a great idea (or is it??).

Alternatively, I thought about how to raise the level of the water. I found these things:

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ea...el-magnetic-block-risers-12-set/311BMW12.html

Each one has a volume of .39 gallons. I believe I can fit three under the basket so just about 1 1/2 gallons or about an inch of height. Downside is they're damn expensive.

I turn to you esteemed BIABers to get your thoughts on raising the effective height, by whatever means, of the water in my kettle.

I eagerly await your replies...

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Is the basket narrower than the pot. That would condense things. Maybe just a bag that's free flowing would allow for more area for the grain. I have the same pot but have never done 5 gallons. Will be following for when that day comes

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ditch the basket, mash full volume with the bag and insulate the kettle with a blanket....done easy happy brewing....

Oh boo hoo your mash temp will drop a few degrees during the rest.....

Ask brulisopher, 30 experienced tasters couldn't tell the difference b/w a beer mashed at 148 vs 154....

Rdwhahb cheers

As Jonny said above, 5 gallon batch in a 20 gallon kettle is not ideal for several reasons.

Fwiw, I don't thing lowering the basket to sit at or near the element would be an issue

 

[RM-MN]

The basket is doing you no favors so get rid of it. Heat your water to strike temp, turn off the heat and add the bag. Stir in the grains and put the lid on and insulate the pot. If your grains are milled reasonably fine your conversion will be done before the temperature falls more than a degree or 2, insignificant amount.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

The basket is doing you no favors so get rid of it. Heat your water to strike temp, turn off the heat and add the bag. Stir in the grains and put the lid on and insulate the pot. If your grains are milled reasonably fine your conversion will be done before the temperature falls more than a degree or 2, insignificant amount.

He mentions a mesh bottom basket. Sounds like that's whats holding the grain and not a bag in the basket the pot comes with...If so he'll need to get a Wilser bag

 

[wilserbrewer]

He mentions a mesh bottom basket. Sounds like that's whats holding the grain and not a bag in the basket the pot comes with...If so he'll need to get a Wilser bag

You're correct Jonny.

Since he is committed to using the basket, I suggest either recirculating manually at the end of the mash, or at a minimum raising and lowering the basket several times to mix or sparge with the water outside the basket.

My apologies to the OP, I missed this fact earlier.

 

[RM-MN]

He mentions a mesh bottom basket. Sounds like that's whats holding the grain and not a bag in the basket the pot comes with...If so he'll need to get a Wilser bag

That's a small price for the improved convenience.:rockin:

 

[davemattb]

Agree to the wilser bag. Plus if I'm not mistaken there's a deal in the sponsor showcase right now 🤔

 

[jan_b19]

Equip: 80 quart Concord w/ ColoBrewSys solid-sided basket; 5500 watt element.

My problem: 5 gallon batches are a challenge. the bottom mesh of my basket is about 2 1/2" off the bottom of the kettle. At 18" diameter that's 1.1 gallons per inch of height. So before I even start my grain is mashing in 3 gallons less water which makes things a bit thick.

One thought is to make some basket height adjustments. However, the bottom of the basket is about an inch away from the element so lowering the basket might not be a great idea (or is it??).

Alternatively, I thought about how to raise the level of the water. I found these things:

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/ea...el-magnetic-block-risers-12-set/311BMW12.html

Each one has a volume of .39 gallons. I believe I can fit three under the basket so just about 1 1/2 gallons or about an inch of height. Downside is they're damn expensive.

I turn to you esteemed BIABers to get your thoughts on raising the effective height, by whatever means, of the water in my kettle.

I eagerly await your replies...

Don't lower the bag. If the element turns on during the mash and the bag is touching it, it will melt and burn

 

[ebstauffer]

The basket has a number of advantages over bags such at lautering and lazy-ass sparging (2 gallons boiling water in a stainless watering can). That would be tough with a bag.

 

[cyclonebeer]

If you swap the basket for a bag, you will lose a lot of functionality in the system, like PID temperature control and ability to recirculate during the mash. I would not give that up. I don't know what your grain bill is or what your original water volume is, but I bet that you're still mashing thinner than traditional 3V brewers.

If your problem has to do with re-circulation on 5 gal batches, you might check out the CBS thread in the electric brewing forum. Lots of people have come up with work arounds.

 

[Lynchy217]

For what it's worth, I have a system with 2 electric elements in the kettle, and my basket sits right on top of the element, and I have never had issues. From what I gather based on responses to my own questions and experience is that you have 2 options.

First, you can mash in the bag with no PID control and remove the basket, This will give you a full-volume mash, and from what I've read, since most of the conversion happens in the first 20 mins of mash, will probably keep you pretty close to your mash target for most beers.

The other option is to use a PID, in which case you need the strainer basket to keep your bag off of the elements. If you do this, you need to recirculate using a pump to increase your effective mash volume.

 

[Bellybuster]

brew with a gallon extra and boil it off after. Ive done it in my CBS system and there was no ill effect.

 

[The_Bishop]

The real issue is that it can be a challenge to do small batches in a 20 gallon kettle.

 

[RM-MN]

For what it's worth, I have a system with 2 electric elements in the kettle, and my basket sits right on top of the element, and I have never had issues. From what I gather based on responses to my own questions and experience is that you have 2 options.

First, you can mash in the bag with no PID control and remove the basket, This will give you a full-volume mash, and from what I've read, since most of the conversion happens in the first 20 mins of mash, will probably keep you pretty close to your mash target for most beers.

The other option is to use a PID, in which case you need the strainer basket to keep your bag off of the elements. If you do this, you need to recirculate using a pump to increase your effective mash volume.

Most of the conversion happens within seconds of the starch becoming gelatinized. The amount of time for gelatinization to happen depends on the size of the grain particles. If you don't circulate you can deal with very small grain particles and that can get you conversion within just a few minutes but will clog the bag/basket when recirculated. If you make the particles larger you can recirculate but then it will take longer to get full conversion during which time the mash will cool unless heat is added. Now you have an added complexity that may be something you want but it really doesn't add much to the simplicity of BIAB.

 

[cyclonebeer]

The other option is to use a PID, in which case you need the strainer basket to keep your bag off of the elements.

Kind of redundant and unnecessary to put a bag in a basket.

The real issue is that it can be a challenge to do small batches in a 20 gallon kettle.

I often brew 5 gallon batches in my 20 gallon kettle without any problems. I guess I'm not sure what the OP's issue really is. He said that his mash was kind of thick. What kind of problems is he having with a thicker mash? Don't know...

 

[ebstauffer]

brew with a gallon extra and boil it off after. Ive done it in my CBS system and there was no ill effect.

I think this is the best approach. My boil-off rate at 80% is 2.1 gallons / hour. I'll just retest at 100% and go from there. Lots of advantages with BIAB(asket) over bags.

 

[ebstauffer]

What kind of problems is he having with a thicker mash? Don't know...

Hmm. Great question. My efficiency was as expected. The mash above the basket just seemed thick compared to a picnic cooler tun. I may be worried about nothing. Of course the simply answer is to brew 10 gallon batches.

 

[ebstauffer]

For what it's worth, I have a system with 2 electric elements in the kettle, and my basket sits right on top of the element

Do you mean your basket is supported by the elements?

 

[Lynchy217]

Do you mean your basket is supported by the elements?

Oh God no. The basket is supported by the pot, but one of the elements touches the basket. I would not risk the life of my elements by putting the weight of a strainer basket + 15 pounds of grain on it.

 

[ebstauffer]

Oh God no. The basket is supported by the pot, but one of the elements touches the basket. I would not risk the life of my elements by putting the weight of a strainer basket + 15 pounds of grain on it.

I was 99.99% certain that's what you meant! That I can tell, the only downside to a basket is (a) cost and (b) need for a hoist / lift. If I can work out a fly-ish sparging to wring a bit of sugar from the grain I can see absolutely no reason to even look back at my 3V system.

I just finished building a new return manifold for my BIABskt. Going to give lautering a go this weekend to see if I can't clear up the wort a bit. About $20 in parts. Main riser is offset to do the CBS basket design.