Low Oxygen Brewing Reference Sheet

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Rob2010SS

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Looking at implementing some of these low oxygen techniques. First one being the use of NaMeta.

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the dose. I've seen older posts referring to the "low oxygen brewing reference sheet". I did a search for it, found the link on ******************** but the link doesn't seem to work. I get this...
upload_2019-12-12_16-50-17.png


Anyone have a current link to this sheet? Or do you have another sheet that can be used to calculate the dose of NaMeta?

Thanks in advance.
 

Schlenkerla

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Looking at implementing some of these low oxygen techniques. First one being the use of NaMeta.

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the dose. I've seen older posts referring to the "low oxygen brewing reference sheet". I did a search for it, found the link on ******************** but the link doesn't seem to work. I get this...
View attachment 656640

Anyone have a current link to this sheet? Or do you have another sheet that can be used to calculate the dose of NaMeta?

Thanks in advance.
I have a link in this thread. See post#1 Trifecta Calculator.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/666210/
 
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Rob2010SS

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Schlenkerla

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Alright so need a hand with that sheet.

Im assuming the way it's supposed to work is you enter your volume and targeted PPM of NaMeta and it tells you how many grams?

It's not working. No matter what I change the grams cell does nothing. What am I doing wrong?
Occasionally, I find that Excel will not execute formulas. Sometimes there's a check box that's unchecked that doesn't force the calculation. For what it's worth I use this in Google Sheets.

It's not my file. I got it from a LOB User....

Inside the thread where you find this somebody also said they found an error in the formulas. To my knowledge it didn't effect the function of the spreadsheet in sheets.

The only other thing I can think of is it's corrupted from saving in a different format.
 
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Rob2010SS

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Occasionally, I find that Excel will not execute formulas. Sometimes there's a check box that's unchecked that doesn't force the calculation. For what it's worth I use this in Google Sheets.

It's not file. I got it from a LOB User....

Inside the thread where you find this somebody also said they found an error in the formulas. To my knowledge it didn't effect the function of the spreadsheet in sheets.

The only other thing I can think of is it's corrupted from saving in a different format.
Also, I tried running it on my phone. Perhaps that's the problem. I'll try and run it on a computer tomorrow at work and see what happens
 

Schlenkerla

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I just looked at this via mobile. I'm wondering if it was changed by somebody on line.

I clicked on the cell that would not change. It asked if I wanted to replace the numerical value with formula. The prior formula. I accepted and it works now

I think people might be able to change it online. Download the file now and try to change the liter cell. The cells to modify are a baby blue color.
 

RPh_Guy

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use of NaMeta.

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate the dose.
I don't use a sheet.

Parts per million (ppm) is the same as mg/L, and the math is straightforward.

For example
Strike water is 7 gallons (26.5L) and you want 30ppm Na-meta...

30mg/L * 26.5L = 795mg = 0.80g

Or in other words:
[Na-meta in ppm] * [volume of strike water in gallons] * 0.003785 = [grams of Na-meta]
 

Dustin_J

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Here's another option - I put these together before migrating to the LOB spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1onW5HdlLOHMO3B1GKhQZvga85r4n5CiB/view?usp=sharing

You should probably download it and work off of your computer, or at least click the link for "open in google sheets" if it's available.

Look under the Trifecta tab. Note that if you're using campden tablets for NaMeta you have to divide the amount given by .75 (or multiply it by 1.33 if you prefer).
 
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Rob2010SS

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I don't use a sheet.

Parts per million (ppm) is the same as mg/L, and the math is straightforward.

For example
Strike water is 7 gallons (26.5L) and you want 30ppm Na-meta...

30mg/L * 26.5L = 795mg = 0.80g

Or in other words:
[Na-meta in ppm] * [volume of strike water in gallons] * 0.003785 = [grams of Na-meta]
That's not bad at all! That's super easy math. Thanks for that.

Do you really shoot for 30ppm? I was reading the low oxygen site and it states the new recommended dose is 5-10 ppm. Should I be aiming for higher ppm?

I plan to use either the yeast scavenging method or the pre boiling method in combination with the NaMeta. I also will employ the mash cap and the boil cap.

Knowing that I'll be using those techniques, if 5-10 ppm enough?
 

Schlenkerla

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That's not bad at all! That's super easy math. Thanks for that.

Do you really shoot for 30ppm? I was reading the low oxygen site and it states the new recommended dose is 5-10 ppm. Should I be aiming for higher ppm?

I plan to use either the yeast scavenging method or the pre boiling method in combination with the NaMeta. I also will employ the mash cap and the boil cap.

Knowing that I'll be using those techniques, if 5-10 ppm enough?
My first go around I used 30ppm using the trifecta and no-sparge.

Do you plan to underlet? I did first time and I had to manually stir though. I used polypropylene balls as a mash cap. If you recirc it's less of an issue.

Do you have oxygen to aerate your wort? If you oxygenate with a 3-6 micron wand after you pitch it will use up the sulfites. You need to be generous with aeration, unless you have a DO Meter to know if you used up the sulfites. You can also use sulfite test strips to check for presence of sulfites. It's cheaper than a meter.

A DO Meter is a good investment. I use it all the time now to check strike water and to check oxygenated wort.
 

RPh_Guy

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Do you really shoot for 30ppm? I was reading the low oxygen site and it states the new recommended dose is 5-10 ppm. Should I be aiming for higher ppm?
Take another look.

20-30 ppm is the currently recommended starting amount for strike water.

5-10 ppm is for sparge water, although no-sparge is recommended whenever possible.

:mug:
 
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Rob2010SS

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My first go around I used 30ppm using the trifecta and no-sparge.

Do you plan to underlet? I did first time and I had to manually stir though. I used polypropylene balls as a mash cap. If you recirc it's less of an issue.
Yes, I plan to underlet. For a mash cap, I was going to try and find a 16" diameter pie pan to lay on the top of the mash. That will allow my 3/4" hose for recirculation to fit between the pan and the side wall of the kettle.

Do you have oxygen to aerate your wort? If you oxygenate with a 3-6 micron wand after you pitch it will use up the sulfites. You need to be generous with aeration, unless you have a DO Meter to know if you used up the sulfites. You can also use sulfite test strips to check for presence of sulfites. It's cheaper than a meter.
Yes I have an oxygenation kit. I use a 0.5 micron stone (the one that comes with the northern brewer oxy kit). I have my eye on a DO meter that I think I'll pick up after Christmas. It's on the cheaper end at $90 but it'll get me started.

Take another look.

20-30 ppm is the currently recommended starting amount for strike water.

5-10 ppm is for sparge water, although no-sparge is recommended whenever possible.

:mug:
This is what I saw on the website:

upload_2019-12-13_12-15-20.png


However, I did see later on in the document where it stated:
upload_2019-12-13_12-16-13.png


So you are correct. I missed this second part when I was reading through it.

So this brings me to another question. I start with 20 gallons in my HLT which I use as the full volume of water for my brew sessions - for mash and sparge. For mashing, I heat the water to about 6*F over my strike temp and then transfer over to my mash tun (current state... this will change when I start to implement underletting and what not).

In that situation, is it acceptable to treat the entire volume of water to get 20-30 ppm NaMeta prior to the mash?
 

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This is what I saw on the website:

I guess it's poorly worded. He's intending to say the 5-10ppm is for sparge water (for those who are sparging). Right above that he says 20-30ppm is the recommended starting dose.

In that situation, is it acceptable to treat the entire volume of water to get 20-30 ppm NaMeta prior to the mash?
Yeah I would dose it all with 30ppm if you can't figure out better way to do it with your equipment.
 
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Rob2010SS

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I guess it's poorly worded. He's intending to say the 5-10ppm is for sparge water (for those who are sparging). Right above that he says 20-30ppm is the recommended starting dose.


Yeah I would dose it all with 30ppm if you can't figure out better way to do it with your equipment.
Hmmm, ok.

Can you add NaMeta when the water is already hot or does that not do you any good?

I could heat up the full volume of water treated with NaMeta to 10ppm, mix in the remaining NaMeta needed to get to 30ppm with the grains in the MT, and transfer over the strike water to the MT. The NaMeta with the grains will get mixed in at time of dough in. The things that I don't know are:
1. Is NaMeta effective when the water is already hot?
2. Does the fact that the NaMeta in the MT won't have time to get rid of the oxygen prior to the strike water coming into contact with the grains matter, or will the 10ppm of NaMeta already in the strike water protect me while the rest of the NaMeta in the MT goes to work?

My other solution would be to collect my 20 gallons of water in my HLT. Prior to heating up, pull off my required strike volume and transfer to my boil kettle where I can treat to 30ppm of NaMeta. Heat up my HLT, then switch over to heating up the boil kettle (I cannot use both elements at the same time), transfer boil kettle volume over to MT where it will underlet the grains.

I'm hoping my first option is viable as the second one will add a significant amount of time, but so be it.
 

RPh_Guy

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How are you planning to deoxygenate the water?

It's fine to add sulfite to hot water. In fact, the water should be hot since sulfite (and ascorbic acid and BrewTan B) should be added right before dough-in.

You might be able to get away with putting sulfite powder on the bottom of your mash tun where the water will flow in. That may be the least bad option.
 
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Rob2010SS

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How are you planning to deoxygenate the water?

It's fine to add sulfite to hot water. In fact, the water should be hot since sulfite (and ascorbic acid and BrewTan B) should be added right before dough-in.

You might be able to get away with putting sulfite power on the bottom of your mash tun where the water will flow in. That may be the least bad option.
I was thinking of going the yeast scavenging method.

Since I collect my water the night before anyway, use 40g yeast and 40g sugar, put a cap on it and let it do it's thing.

Come morning, add the sulfite and start heating.
 

Schlenkerla

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I was thinking of going the yeast scavenging method.

Since I collect my water the night before anyway, use 40g yeast and 40g sugar, put a cap on it and let it do it's thing.

Come morning, add the sulfite and start heating.
Yeast scavanging works well. I used my DO meter on that right after I got it. In about 20 minutes it dropped from 8-9ppm down to 0.3-0.4ppm. It stayed that way for few days. I was out on the road for a week, even after a week it was still very low. Below 1ppm. Can't complain about that.
 

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Yeast scavanging works well. I used my DO meter on that right after I got it. In about 20 minutes it dropped from 8-9ppm down to 0.3-0.4ppm. It stayed that way for few days. I was out on the road for a week, even after a week it was still very low. Below 1ppm. Can't complain about that.
Oxygen diffuses into still water incredibly slowly.
 

Schlenkerla

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~2ppm/hr until saturation. Thats pretty fast by my book.
Does DO obtain equilibrium within a volume of water or is there stratification levels? If I move my probe the ppm goes up slightly then once the probe still is starts lowering again. I'm taking right after a boil or scavanging. Not much maybe 0.2-0.3 ppm. My probe will still be very low in the vessel.
 

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Does DO obtain equilibrium within a volume of water or is there stratification levels? If I move my probe the ppm goes up slightly then once the probe still is starts lowering again. I'm taking right after a boil or scavanging. Not much maybe 0.2-0.3 ppm. My probe will still be very low in the vessel.

It will stratify until equilibrium.
 

RPh_Guy

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Yes due to the laws of partial pressures.
I think Fick's first law of diffusion applies, but I am having difficulty applying the mathematics. If you've done measurements then that's even better. :)

Some sites I was reading said diffusion was slow, so I'm not sure where they went wrong or maybe I misinterpreted.
 

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I think Fick's first law of diffusion applies, but I am having difficulty applying the mathematics. If you've done measurements then that's even better. :)

Some sites I was reading said diffusion was slow, so I'm not sure where they went wrong or maybe I misinterpreted.

Yessir Ficks, and I did, thats how I got my numbers. Which are int he LOB paper as well.


Cheers
 
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Rob2010SS

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My first go around I used 30ppm using the trifecta and no-sparge.

Do you plan to underlet? I did first time and I had to manually stir though. I used polypropylene balls as a mash cap. If you recirc it's less of an issue.

Do you have oxygen to aerate your wort? If you oxygenate with a 3-6 micron wand after you pitch it will use up the sulfites. You need to be generous with aeration, unless you have a DO Meter to know if you used up the sulfites. You can also use sulfite test strips to check for presence of sulfites. It's cheaper than a meter.

A DO Meter is a good investment. I use it all the time now to check strike water and to check oxygenated wort.
Where did you get these balls? I have been trying to figure out how to cap my HLT once the water drops below the HERMS coil and this seems like a simple option!! I didn't know what you meant by this until I saw your picture.
 

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Does DO obtain equilibrium within a volume of water or is there stratification levels? If I move my probe the ppm goes up slightly then once the probe still is starts lowering again. I'm taking right after a boil or scavanging. Not much maybe 0.2-0.3 ppm. My probe will still be very low in the vessel.
To get the most accurate reading from your DO600 you want to move the probe very slowly around the sample. The reason is the meter actually consumes the oxygen near the diaphragm and if there is no motion you will see artificially low DO numbers.
 

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To get the most accurate reading from your DO600 you want to move the probe very slowly around the sample. The reason is the meter actually consumes the oxygen near the diaphragm and if there is no motion you will see artificially low DO numbers.
Yeah that's what I'm seeing when I move it around. Most of the time it's a 2-3 minute measurement. Lately I've been leaving the meter in the water with it on taking measurements every few hours. I have a wire cable probe attached to the meter.
 

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Where did you get these balls? I have been trying to figure out how to cap my HLT once the water drops below the HERMS coil and this seems like a simple option!! I didn't know what you meant by this until I saw your picture.
This is where I got them. I bought a 1000 of 20mm polypropylene for $75.00 . They are the hollow type

They are good to 230F. A 1000 can do both my MLT and HLT and with a double layer. I can keep a boil going at 30% burner heat setting where in the past I'm at 80% of the max setting.

https://eccllc.us/features/

Keith Stuck At ECC
(910) 799-4411
[email protected]
 
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Rob2010SS

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This is where I got them. I bought a 1000 of 20mm polypropylene for $75.00 . They are the hollow type

They are good to 230F. A 1000 can do both my MLT and HLT and with a double layer. I can keep a boil going at 30% burner heat setting where in the past I'm at 80% of the max setting.

https://eccllc.us/features/

Keith Stuck At ECC
(910) 799-4411
[email protected]
Wow so you use them im your boil as well? How do you add hops?

Thanks for sending that. Im thinking im only going to use them in my HLT so I can probably go half and get 500 and be ok.
 

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Wow so you use them im your boil as well? How do you add hops?

Thanks for sending that. Im thinking im only going to use them in my HLT so I can probably go half and get 500 and be ok.
Right now, I have three ways, hop sacks, large stainless steel tea balls and a old hop spider. I typically prefer the large tea balls. I tether them to kettle handle. So I can pull them for the chiller. The balls cover whatever you want if the level is high enough and they move around any obstruction.
20190117_123551.jpeg
IMG_20190219_203626.jpeg
 
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Schlenkerla

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Getting 500 may not be an option. A 1000 can easily fit inside a shoe box.

Not sure if Keith would sell less than a thousand. Call and ask him.

These are also used for sous vide. But I'm not sure the ones for sous vide are pharma grade polyethylene material. Your should ask about the material type before you use an alternate route.
 
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Schlenkerla

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Last thought with the boil, since you need less heat to boil, I believe you can keep the SRM value pretty low. Less maillard reaction with kettle bottom or the element.
IMG_20191121_172231.jpeg
 
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Regarding the discussion the diffusion rate of oxygen into wort using Fisks law - I was trying to understand that better - here are my calcs and assumptions:

D = 2.1x10-5 cm2/s
dC/dX = 10mg/1l (assume a concentration gradient of 0 to 10ppm across 1 cm depth of water/wort
= 10mg/1000cm3/cm = 10mg/1000cm4

J = -D x dC/dx
J = 2.1x10-7 mg/s per cm2 of surface area.

so for a 1000cm2 pot opening size this would be 2.1x10-4 mg/s

so in 1 hour, this would be 0.756 mg/hr of oxygen diffusion, through the top cm of the liquid (which = 1000cm3 or 1L)
So this is around 1mg/L = 1ppm - but only at the top cm. For this to oxygenate the entire wort (assuming no agitation, and capping), the resulting steady state oxygen concentration would be around 20 times less than this and probably take 20 times longer to diffuse to the bottom of the kettle.

Did I do the math properly?

If the above is correct, it would mean that:
- the primary means of oxygenation would be through movement of the liquid due to evaporation or agitation and not diffusion.
- in a still liquid any oxygen measurements might not reflect the “average” ppm since the liquid could easily be non homogeneous with oxygen concentrations. I suppose multiple measurements should be taken and averaged. Measurements at the surface of the liquid might overstate the amount of oxygen in the wort.
 
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Rob2010SS

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Revisiting this and planning on finally pulling the trigger on some of these techniques. Just want to clarify some things...

1. The yeast used for the scavenging method, this is just simple dry bread yeast, correct?
2. The sugar can be Corn Sugar (dextrose?) correct?
3. Campden is Na-Meta. These are OK to just crush up and use for the antioxidants?
 
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