Low efficiency with Grainfather

[tant]

Hi, I am very new to all this. Yesterday I did my fourth brew. It was a Blue Moon clone from grainfather recipes
OG - 1.044
FG - 1.011
5 pounds of Maris Otter Pale ale malt
5 pounds of Flaked Wheat US
mash in 60 minutes at 66 C
mash out 10 minutes at 75 C
boil time 60 minutes
a packet East Kent Goldings at the beginning of boil
21 grams of orange peel
21 grams of coriander 10 minutes before end of boil
strike water 15.6 L
sparge water 13.9 L - here is the problem, never got to pour the whole volume, only 8 L, otherwise it would have been way to diluted

I am trying this recipe for the second time and I get very low efficiency around 55% as I did with my previous 3 bathes. I am looking for some advice to see where it went wrong. I am not sure what the setting on the grinder for the grain but the guy at the shop told me it should work fine for Grainfather. Sparging took me about 30 minutes overall, it was trickling slowly but surely. I also did an iodine test after during mashout and was pretty orange/red in colour so I suppose all starch had converted. The OG after I cooled the wort down was about 1.040, I used my refractometer for that. 1.040 is not terribly bad for this recipe but I basically have not gotten another 6 L of wort. I do not have the measurements of my previous batches (just started a proper journal) but they were also way off when it came to the OG. Any advice from seasoned Grainfather brewers?

 

[murphyslaw]

My guess is that the refractometer reading is wrong. How did you convert it to SG? I've never really gotten a reliable reading from mine.

 

[tant]

I purchased my refractometer for 30 dollars from Amazon. It has both Brix and SG scale. People say it is pretty reliable

 

[murphyslaw]

If you own a hydrometer, I'd compare the results.

 

[Rackrunner]

Hi - Grainfather user here too, and I have a roughly similar base malt recipe for a wheat beer I do, but haven't had the efficiency issues you describe. The mash temp and sparge time seems normal to me, and the iodine test sounds good, so that would most likely mean a) some kind of measurement error or b) starches never making it into the solution to begin with. A few things to check:

1. Did you calibrate the refractometer before you used it, with distilled water? Most will have an adjustment screw to 'zero out' at 1.000 using distilled water.

2. What was your pre-boil volume? 55% efficiency of 1.040 would mean you only ended up with something like 5 gal - is that right?

3. Did you check for any doughballs / clumps? Flaked wheat in particular gets very sticky.

One thing I do for my wheat recipe (40% flaked wheat) is a 20 minute protein rest at 125F (~51-52C) before raising to mash temps. I believe I was getting roughly 80% efficiency the last time I made that beer.

Hope that helps a little!
-Rackrunner

 

[tant]

Hi, Rackrunner. Thank you for your advice.
1. I calibrated my refractometer before that with distilled water, it was off by a point, so the reading should be accurate
2. You are correct, I had about 18 liters which is almost 5 gallons (4.75)
3. I stirred pretty thoroughly after every quarter of grain bills, so 4 nice stirs. I will check next for clumps more diligently but I did not notice anything during this particular mash in.

I will definitely try a protein rest next time; however, I have a question. John Palmer in his book says you can combine beta-glucanase and protein rest at 45-50 C for 15-30 minutes. Should I do that or just go for a proper protein rest? Forgot to mention I had 0.5 pounds of rice hulls if that matters

 

[jlinz]

Hi, I am very new to all this. Yesterday I did my fourth brew. It was a Blue Moon clone from grainfather recipes
OG - 1.044
FG - 1.011
5 pounds of Maris Otter Pale ale malt
5 pounds of Flaked Wheat US
mash in 60 minutes at 66 C
mash out 10 minutes at 75 C
boil time 60 minutes
a packet East Kent Goldings at the beginning of boil
21 grams of orange peel
21 grams of coriander 10 minutes before end of boil
strike water 15.6 L
sparge water 13.9 L - here is the problem, never got to pour the whole volume, only 8 L, otherwise it would have been way to diluted

I am trying this recipe for the second time and I get very low efficiency around 55% as I did with my previous 3 bathes. I am looking for some advice to see where it went wrong. I am not sure what the setting on the grinder for the grain but the guy at the shop told me it should work fine for Grainfather. Sparging took me about 30 minutes overall, it was trickling slowly but surely. I also did an iodine test after during mashout and was pretty orange/red in colour so I suppose all starch had converted. The OG after I cooled the wort down was about 1.040, I used my refractometer for that. 1.040 is not terribly bad for this recipe but I basically have not gotten another 6 L of wort. I do not have the measurements of my previous batches (just started a proper journal) but they were also way off when it came to the OG. Any advice from seasoned Grainfather brewers?

Hey there! Can you tell me which recipe this was? It may have been my own, or just like it, except I go 4.5 pounds of wheat, rather than 5 and mine is designed for 5.5 gallons. Also, my OG is usually around 1.048. Anyway, I might suspect the grain crush in your case. When you get the right crush with the grainfather (approximately) the width of a credit card, your efficiency should be up in the 80s and maybe even higher. Also, I've never needed rice hulls with the grainfather.

 

[tant]

http://brew.grainfather.com/recipes/20812
I am also thinking about a longer mash in. Is it worthwhile to let the grain sit for 90 minutes instead of 60?

 

[Rackrunner]

Hi, Rackrunner. Thank you for your advice.
1. I calibrated my refractometer before that with distilled water, it was off by a point, so the reading should be accurate
2. You are correct, I had about 18 liters which is almost 5 gallons (4.75)
3. I stirred pretty thoroughly after every quarter of grain bills, so 4 nice stirs. I will check next for clumps more diligently but I did not notice anything during this particular mash in.

I will definitely try a protein rest next time; however, I have a question. John Palmer in his book says you can combine beta-glucanase and protein rest at 45-50 C for 15-30 minutes. Should I do that or just go for a proper protein rest? Forgot to mention I had 0.5 pounds of rice hulls if that matters

I've never done a b-g rest before, but the ranges do seem to overlap quite a bit. I just picked 125F as an easy to remember number in the middle of the range

The longer mash time may help a little as well, but really the iodine test should show that definitively - it's done when it's done. The recipe I was referring to was a 75 minute mash if that helps.

As jlinz suggested, definitely worth looking at the crush as well. Have you done any recipes that don't have a high % of flaked wheat or other adjuncts, and did they have the same issue?

 

[jlinz]

http://brew.grainfather.com/recipes/20812
I am also thinking about a longer mash in. Is it worthwhile to let the grain sit for 90 minutes instead of 60?

I mash for 75 minutes.

 

[jlinz]

Feel free to try my recipe, if you like. I get a good crush on the MO and do nothing to the flaked wheat. Works out quite well. Again, the right crush is so crucial for getting the most out of the GF, but people don't realize that unless they use one. Just about right where a credit card goes through with only slight resistance.
http://brew.grainfather.com/recipes/77449

 

[RM-MN]

Mash conversion efficiency is controlled by the crush of the grain first, with a small added change from a pH that is off. If you want good and consistent efficiency, get your own mill. Set it where you want instead of where the shop wants theirs set.

 

[tdp]

I have a grainfather and have had no problems with efficiency at all. FWIW they told me that 0.05 gap width on the mill works best - that’s what I’ve been using and it’s been fine (I typically do a 60 min mash)

 

[murphyslaw]

The mash length might give you a few extra points but it's not the reason for a 55% eff. Even a bad crush....that would have to be really course to make that big of a difference.

I think cheap refractometers like that are unreliable. I paid twice as much more for mine and as much as I want it to work, it's really useless.

Read the caveats listed here
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2013/...rrectly-for-maximum-accuracy-in-home-brewing/"

 

[murphyslaw]

If it's not a measurement error, I'd try again before resorting to significant process changes. It could be a fluke (accidently measured the grain wrong, etc) and I'd be careful to not get fooled into thinking whatever you change--crush, mash length, etc--was the cause.

 

[madscientist451]

I'd get a hydrometer before you made any changes.....

 

[tant]

Thanks, guys. I have not brewed a beer yet without at least 30% of flaked wheat. I will do a longer mash out next time with a protein rest and check the setting on the grain grinder. I also have a hydrometer and will compare the readings next time

 

[singybrue]

I had efficiency issues with my Grainfather and stirring the mash about halfway through has helped. I also stir it really well at dough-in, like 5+ minutes worth.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks, guys. I have not brewed a beer yet without at least 30% of flaked wheat. I will do a longer mash out next time with a protein rest and check the setting on the grain grinder. I also have a hydrometer and will compare the readings next time

Change only one variable or you will never know what change was the cure. I'd change the setting on the grain grinder first.

 

[tant]

I brewed another batch with only 20% of flaked wheat. The only things I did differently were a protein rest at 48C for 20 minutes and stirring halfway through mashing. This time I got about 80% efficiency and am very pleased with the result. Now I have to wait to ferment, bottle and taste this Guinness clone

 

[thehaze]

You should use all the sparge water when you brew. If you are afraid of astringency or whatever, you can cut a couple of liters from the sparge, but that's it. I have been using the Grainfather for the past 44 batches and never had efficiency below 68% ( this was with 19 lbs of grains ). It usually sits somewhere between 73 and 83%, better with smaller grainbills, and a bit lower with greater ones.

Use all your sparge water and recirculate the wort at 74-76C for 10 minutes before sparging. Never let the grain plate empty for sparge water. Try a finer crush on the grains and prolong the mash at a lower temperature. Maybe 149-151F. You can always boil longer to get the OG you want, but that means you will have to use all the sparge water you are told by the calculator.

You can set up the calculator ( https://www.grainfather.com/brewing-calculators ) for any batch size, so that should not be an issue. I usually set it for 28 L, as this way I can get between 5.8 and 6.4 gal of beer in the bottles. No need to only do a little 5 gallons, if the Grainfather fits.

Stirring halfway can also help. If you dabble with water, mash pH is equally important.

 

[shortyz]

i dont have much of an issue with my grainfather but theres a few things that help, as said previous stirring the mash half way through helps. The other thing is rice hulls, even with a normal mash without wheat ill throw a half pound in to aid the mash recirc flow. If my recipe has oats or wheat in it, i throw 2 pounds in or else the sparge will take FOREVER.

another thing i do sometimes is throw another pound of 2 row in to make up any losses, becuase its cheap and if it gets my og right, meh whatever.

also if u dont have a pasta spoon for getting rid of clumps, get one i find they work excellent for mixing the mash

 

[tdp]

I had efficiency issues with my Grainfather and stirring the mash about halfway through has helped. I also stir it really well at dough-in, like 5+ minutes worth.

Curious about how you go about stirring halfway through with the top plate in place? How do you get it off and back on without scaling your hands etc??

 

[singybrue]

Curious about how you go about stirring halfway through with the top plate in place? How do you get it off and back on without scaling your hands etc??

I put on silicone BBQ gloves and pull it off

 

[tdp]

That is very sensible... unlike my question

 

[cpham574]

Lots of good info here...thanks guys! I’ve been trying to increase my efficiency too but I keep getting low to mid 60’s. Not sure what I’m doing wrong. I think it may be my sparge process. At what point do you guys start sparging?

My process is as follows:

-0.036” crush. Adjusted with feeler gauge
-Stir really well at dough in
-Mash 60 mins (used to stir halfway but did not notice a difference)
-Set temp to 170 and mash out for 15 mins
-Lift basket
-Start sparge once the wort is barely trickling from the basket (I’m thinking this may be where I need to make a change)
-Sparge usually takes around 20 mins
-Boil for an hour

Preboil volume is good. Preboil gravity usually a little low by 5 points or so

Postboil volume usually low (will need to change my boiloff rate). Post gravity usually 5 points low

Hydrometer and refractometer calibrated

 

[Jag75]

I'm gonna try a small grain bill and see how the #'s come out . I'm wondering if the really big grain bill is part of the problem. If you have a 16lb GB, if you break it in half and do 2 mash of 8lb then add together and boil or would the first mash go bad waiting for the second .

 

[RM-MN]

-0.036” crush. Adjusted with feeler gauge

Mash efficiency is directly related to the crush. Adjust your crush to .030 and see if you don't get closer to the expected OG (increased efficiency).

-Mash 60 mins (used to stir halfway but did not notice a difference)

If you don't want to adjust the mill closer, extend the mash. 60 minutes may not be enough to get the water to the middle of the grain particles, gelatinize the starch, activate the enzymes, convert the starch to sugars, and finally to get the sugars back out.

-Boil for an hour

The norm is to boil an hour. Your choice. I've read that 90 % of the bittering happens in the first 30 minutes and my beers seem to reflect that so I only boil for 30 minutes. YMMV

 

[couchsending]

Don’t adjust your crush finer unless you want piles of debris in your boil. The filter plates on the GF are rather course. .036 should be fine.

The key to maximum efficiency on a Grainfather is:

Stirring once or twice during mash
Making sure your sparge is slow

With large grainbills your efficiency will start to decrease. The design of the GF with it’s tall and narrow grain basket doesn’t help that.

I’ve got a lot of brews under my belt on this machine and have done a few mods to try to make better beer.

My low efficiency days are always directly related to a sparge that’s too fast which in my mind means there is some sort of channeling happening. Next time when you pull the basket let it drain and actually push the top plate down to compact the grain bed slightly before you start your sparge. This will slow everything down and you should see an increase in efficiency. Try to keep the liquid at a certain level above the bed for the whole time.

If time is more important to you thy efficiency just adjust your efficiency down.

 

[Jag75]

Don’t adjust your crush finer unless you want piles of debris in your boil. The filter plates on the GF are rather course. .036 should be fine.

The key to maximum efficiency on a Grainfather is:

Stirring once or twice during mash
Making sure your sparge is slow

With large grainbills your efficiency will start to decrease. The design of the GF with it’s tall and narrow grain basket doesn’t help that.

I’ve got a lot of brews under my belt on this machine and have done a few mods to try to make better beer.

My low efficiency days are always directly related to a sparge that’s too fast which in my mind means there is some sort of channeling happening. Next time when you pull the basket let it drain and actually push the top plate down to compact the grain bed slightly before you start your sparge. This will slow everything down and you should see an increase in efficiency. Try to keep the liquid at a certain level above the bed for the whole time.

If time is more important to you thy efficiency just adjust your efficiency down.

This is something that I was wondering . I take it during the mash you dont use the top plate if your stirring . So do you leave it off until you sparge?

 

[couchsending]

This is something that I was wondering . I take it during the mash you dont use the top plate if your stirring . So do you leave it off until you sparge?

No I just take the top plate off and stir and put it back on. Takes 2 seconds.

I think stirring has an impact but sparge time has a more direct correlation to better efficiency.

I actually got some small micron mesh and cut out a circle the same size as the bottom plate. I put that below the plate and also condition my grain. It really helps to keep particulate out of the boil and a cleaner overall wort.

If you do condition your grain you definitely need to compact the grain bed. All the intact hulls speed up the flow of the sparge water through the grain bed and you won’t extract all the sugars.

 

[Jag75]

No I just take the top plate off and stir and put it back on. Takes 2 seconds.

I think stirring has an impact but sparge time has a more direct correlation to better efficiency.

I actually got some small micron mesh and cut out a circle the same size as the bottom plate. I put that below the plate and also condition my grain. It really helps to keep particulate out of the boil and a cleaner overall wort.

If you do condition your grain you definitely need to compact the grain bed. All the intact hulls speed up the flow of the sparge water through the grain bed and you won’t extract all the sugars.

Ok so you stir mash a couple times . Are you running the pump during mash ? When you mash the grains aren't compacted only compact during sparge ? I'm just trying to figure out why both times I've missed my #'s. They've been 16 lb grain bills

 

[cpham574]

Don’t adjust your crush finer unless you want piles of debris in your boil. The filter plates on the GF are rather course. .036 should be fine.

The key to maximum efficiency on a Grainfather is:

Stirring once or twice during mash
Making sure your sparge is slow

With large grainbills your efficiency will start to decrease. The design of the GF with it’s tall and narrow grain basket doesn’t help that.

I’ve got a lot of brews under my belt on this machine and have done a few mods to try to make better beer.

My low efficiency days are always directly related to a sparge that’s too fast which in my mind means there is some sort of channeling happening. Next time when you pull the basket let it drain and actually push the top plate down to compact the grain bed slightly before you start your sparge. This will slow everything down and you should see an increase in efficiency. Try to keep the liquid at a certain level above the bed for the whole time.

If time is more important to you thy efficiency just adjust your efficiency down.

Thanks for your input. Do you start your sparge shortly after lifting the basket? Or do you let most of it drain before starting the sparge?

 

[cpham574]

Ok so you stir mash a couple times . Are you running the pump during mash ? When you mash the grains aren't compacted only compact during sparge ? I'm just trying to figure out why both times I've missed my #'s. They've been 16 lb grain bills

16lbs is on the higher end of the GF’s capacity so efficiency will definitely suffer a bit. You should be running the pump during the mash and throttle the flow so that the wort level stays below the overflow pipe

 

[Jag75]

16lbs is on the higher end of the GF’s capacity so efficiency will definitely suffer a bit. You should be running the pump during the mash and throttle the flow so that the wort level stays below the overflow pipe

Ok that's what I've done . You just solidified my thoughts on a large grain bill of this size and its struggle for efficiency. It's too much work splitting the grains then combining. I'll just deal with not meeting the projected #'s. Thanks for the input . Good stuff

 

[cpham574]

Ok that's what I've done . You just solidified my thoughts on a large grain bill of this size and its struggle for efficiency. It's too much work splitting the grains then combining. I'll just deal with not meeting the projected #'s. Thanks for the input . Good stuff

Yeah IMO one of the biggest cons of the GF is the capacity for bigger beers. My solution for this problem is brewing 4 gal batches and using some DME to hit those higher gravities

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I have a different sparge method than most with my grainfather. I was never able to get better than 70% before. Now i take my first runnings, and pump them into a second vessle(I use a keg) i add the sparge water as the basket drains. Once the sparge water is in, i stir, and recirq through the grist. I have been getting 80% and the wort is increadibly clear from the sparge water getting vorlaufed. It is a bit time consuming, but it works great.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah IMO one of the biggest cons of the GF is the capacity for bigger beers. My solution for this problem is brewing 4 gal batches and using some DME to hit those higher gravities

How do you know how much to add ?

 

[Jag75]

I have a different sparge method than most with my grainfather. I was never able to get better than 70% before. Now i take my first runnings, and pump them into a second vessle(I use a keg) i add the sparge water as the basket drains. Once the sparge water is in, i stir, and recirq through the grist. I have been getting 80% and the wort is increadibly clear from the sparge water getting vorlaufed. It is a bit time consuming, but it works great.

This seems a lot easier then splitting a big grain bill in half then combining when done. My next brew I will stir the mash a couple times then I will add sparge and recirc like you say . Hopefully this should get me closer to what the #'s are supposed to be . Thanks guys . It's nice to hear little tid bits that everyone has found to give that push to making beer better .

 

[couchsending]

Ok so you stir mash a couple times . Are you running the pump during mash ? When you mash the grains aren't compacted only compact during sparge ? I'm just trying to figure out why both times I've missed my #'s. They've been 16 lb grain bills

Yup always running the pump. Just shut it off when I stir and start it back up.

You shouldn’t start your sparge until A fair amount of the wort has left the grain bed. As it leaves the grainbed will naturally compact. Push the top plate down to the top of the grain bed and then push it down a little more to compact it even further. This should help to slow down sparge and up your efficiency. You should see over 80% mash efficiency with moderate grain bills. Larger grain bills will suffer regardless.