Low efficiency need help

[Tyler Hurst]

Hi and thanks to those reading this. I have been having a problem with efficiency for a while now. I use a brewers edge mash and boil. At first I tried crushing grains more fine. Then the device would shut down from errors caused by matter surrounding the temp probe. So I started using a brew bag inside the cylinder. Then I got stuck sparges. So I got a feeler gauge, set my mill to 1.03 mm. today I used the brew bag, had my grain mill set to a normal setting, still got a stuck sparge, and my gravity came out 10 points lower than I shot for!! Even after adding 4 oz of corn sugar to the recipe!! I don’t know what I can be doing wrong? I feel like I need to hire a consultant. I can provide and pictures or answer any questions. Posted pictures of my setup and my crush from today just in case. And for good measure. On the feeler gauge I used the .50mm and .53mm feelers and the grain mill teeth were not even catching on them as I slide it.

 

[kmarkstevens]

I feel your pain with about the same set up (double crush grains, have a 400 micron brew bag that looks like yours) and poor efficiency of maybe 60%. I have found that Brewer's Edge is fairly affordable but a blunt tool. Would not have bought it knowing in advance that the temp is +/- 6%, the thermometer is pretty crude, and timer is only for when you turn on the heat. Also, maybe 20 brews in, the plug runs hot. It burned out a circuit breaker plug and I'm on the second plug.

That said, I use it for most of my brews.

#1 Do you stir your mash every couple of minutes? Your version prolly does not have the recirculation option. So, stir it a lot and see if that helps?
#2 I mash high at around 158 for most everything. My cheat is I usually heat to around 160F and check with a second thermometer, stir in the grains, reset the temp to 154. The temp will slowly drop to 148 then the heat will kick in and may go as high as 160 before turning off again. I typically stir some during the mash, may play with the temp setting to make it kick in, and then turn off when it's getting to 158F.
#3 If you couldn't tell from #2, this is not a set and forget device. Stir it, play with the termperatures, use a second thermometer.

Brewer's Edge is what it is at a pretty good price point. I was unrealistically expecting a lot more out of it. In a year or two, I'll pay a lot more for exactly what I want. And in many respects, I now know what I want from an electric brewing system only after having the Brewer's Edge experience combined with a sous vide wand for smaller batches. So, no disrespect to the folks a Brewer's Edge, but I should have done more homework first.

 

[bpgreen]

If your efficiency is stable, that's probably better than if it's good. Adjust your recipes to the efficiencies you get.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

If your efficiency is stable, that's probably better than if it's good. Adjust your recipes to the efficiencies you get.

really? Can I ask why you think this?

 

[mashpaddled]

Have you tried testing the temperatures and gravity with external equipment? Not sure if your gravity measures are from the system or a hydro/refractometer. Are you sure the gravity readings are correct? Are you possibly mashing or sparging at too low of temperatures?

Do you recirculate during the mash? I would be concerned about a narrow, tall mash bed compacting the grain and not allowing for good circulation of enzymes. Have you tested for conversion?

Do you add the sparge water and then pull the grain basket to drain it? Is the sparge getting recirculated or stirred? Similarly I would be concerned that you are not getting a good rinse of sugars in the sparge.

Do you take gravity readings of first runnings vs. preboil? If the first runnings seems correct but efficiency drops off when you finish sparging then it is a sparge issue rather than mashing.

 

[bpgreen]

really? Can I ask why you think this?

If you have good efficiency, but it's inconsistent, it makes it more difficult to create consistent beer. If your efficiency isn't great, but it's consistent, you can make up for it by using more grain or adding extract.

 

[UncleD]

If you have good efficiency, but it's inconsistent, it makes it more difficult to create consistent beer. If your efficiency isn't great, but it's consistent, you can make up for it by using more grain or adding extract.

I agree with this. When I started using a BIAB in my mash tun, my efficiency went down. But now that I know what it dropped to, I can just account for that change with more grain when I'm putting my recipe together.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Have you tried testing the temperatures and gravity with external equipment? Not sure if your gravity measures are from the system or a hydro/refractometer. Are you sure the gravity readings are correct? Are you possibly mashing or sparging at too low of temperatures?

Do you recirculate during the mash? I would be concerned about a narrow, tall mash bed compacting the grain and not allowing for good circulation of enzymes. Have you tested for conversion?

Do you add the sparge water and then pull the grain basket to drain it? Is the sparge getting recirculated or stirred? Similarly I would be concerned that you are not getting a good rinse of sugars in the sparge.

Do you take gravity readings of first runnings vs. preboil? If the first runnings seems correct but efficiency drops off when you finish sparging then it is a sparge issue rather than mashing.

Have you tried testing the temperatures and gravity with external equipment? Not sure if your gravity measures are from the system or a hydro/refractometer. Are you sure the gravity readings are correct? Are you possibly mashing or sparging at too low of temperatures?

Do you recirculate during the mash? I would be concerned about a narrow, tall mash bed compacting the grain and not allowing for good circulation of enzymes. Have you tested for conversion?

Do you add the sparge water and then pull the grain basket to drain it? Is the sparge getting recirculated or stirred? Similarly I would be concerned that you are not getting a good rinse of sugars in the sparge.

Do you take gravity readings of first runnings vs. preboil? If the first runnings seems correct but efficiency drops off when you finish sparging then it is a sparge issue rather than mashing.

These are some of the great questions I needed thanks!
As far as the gravity readings. They could be off but not by a whole lot as evidenced by post mash (pre-sparge) hydrometer readings (picture included) this recipe was a copy recipe from craft beer and brewing of a saison du pont style with OG of 1.065 mine came in at 1.055 post boil. I’m using a tilt hydrometer which was calibrated in distilled water prior to joining my yeast in pitch. I did not do another gravity reading post sparge as I had to run to target for my wife while the kettle was heating to a boil.

I do recirculate with a pump almost the entirety of the mash but I was not stirring aside from dough in. I should try to change that more. The constant recirculation does help even the mash temp which I ran at 150 (dough in 160 10 degree drop due to grains etc). 60 mins then 168 10 mins. Then recirculate until clear runnings. Then fly sparge 168 degree water using pump also. After about 1.5 gallons I got the stuck sparge. I use a recirculation tip to avoid compacting the grain bed as well. Also how do I test for conversion?

for sparge I pull the grain basket up and then run the hot water through it after it has drained. Would you say this is incorrect? For the sparge I usually recirculate if it’s not stuck. I usually only stir the grains while spargingif liquid is not moving. I’ve heard you can extract tannins from storing too much during the sparge or from squeezing water out of the grains after you pull them up.

Recipe is as follows:
11lbs pilsner
.5lbs vienna
.5lbs wheat
.25lbs Munich

1oz Saaz at 60
.75oz Saaz at 15
.5oz bitter orange peel at 15

90 min boil 4.5 gallons
Mash at 150 = 60 mins
Mash at 168 = 10 mins
Fly sparge 3 gallons

5.25 gallons into the fermenter
OYL-500 saisonstein (with starter) pitch at 68.

 

[SFC Rudy]

My issue with my Mash & Boil (and all other one vessels systems) is heating and storing sparge water. I was also getting low efficiency.

My fix is I stopped using the M&B instructions; I put John Palmers calculations into an excel spreadsheet. also bought a second M&B. I mash in one and drain until I get half my boil volume then I sparge in the second (heated to 170). I use a pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to recirculate until the sparge water "changes color". Let sit 10 minutes or so then drain until I get half my boil volume then combine the two runnings into the "sparge" M&B and drive on. I have been getting between 85% and 90% efficiencies doing it this way.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

My issue with my Mash & Boil (and all other one vessels systems) is heating and storing sparge water. I was also getting low efficiency.

My fix is I stopped using the M&B instructions; I put John Palmers calculations into an excel spreadsheet. also bought a second M&B. I mash in one and drain until I get half my boil volume then I sparge in the second (heated to 170). I use a pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to recirculate until the sparge water "changes color". Let sit 10 minutes or so then drain until I get half my boil volume then combine the two runnings into the "sparge" M&B and drive on. I have been getting between 85% and 90% efficiencies doing it this way.

so I think I could somewhat replicate this because I was an idiot and bought the M&B sparge water heater which can heat 4 gallons of water. I’m going to plug some numbers in here for my own sanity.
So if you have a mash volume of 4 gallons and a desired boils volume of 7 gallons you drain to 3.5 gallons then pull out the mash cylinder put it directly into (or over?) your other mash and boil with the sparge water and recirculate until the water is turbid and you have the other half of your desired boil volume. Then you move the original mash water into the sparge M&B and Bob’s your uncle?

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Also I also have Palmers calculations in my beer smith profile for the M&B too. Good call tho.

 

[SFC Rudy]

so I think I could somewhat replicate this because I was an idiot and bought the M&B sparge water heater which can heat 4 gallons of water. I’m going to plug some numbers in here for my own sanity.
So if you have a mash volume of 4 gallons and a desired boils volume of 7 gallons you drain to 3.5 gallons then pull out the mash cylinder put it directly into (or over?) your other mash and boil with the sparge water and recirculate until the water is turbid and you have the other half of your desired boil volume. Then you move the original mash water into the sparge M&B and Bob’s your uncle?

That's exactly what I do.

 

[bracconiere]

really? Can I ask why you think this?

like a lot of people here, he thinks you want to go pro.....


honestly, if it was me. i'd buy a 10 gallon round cooler, and convert it to a mash tun. i pull 92% (according to beersmith?) with mine, it's what i learned on, what i still use.

just use the electric kettle for strike water and, boil.

i crush at by your measure would be 0.7mm, and my bazooka tubes lets me sparge just fine, and it takes me about 1.5 hours to sparge slowly.

i can go over what helped me.

i went from 63%->83%, learning to sparge slowly. went from 83%->88% doing a step mash with a second step at 162 for alpha. then went from 88%->92% when i learned not to boil the runoff and i can get away with boiling the mash grain and all for the second step....

hope that helps?

edit: i got 97% once, but i haven't learned what i did diferently