Loss of bright hop flavors and aroma

[kmckiou]

I was not sure if this was the right forum to discuss this, so I will be happy to move the thread if I am in the wrong place.

I have noticed lately that my hoppy brews have been losing a great deal of hop "definition" from the time primary fermentation is complete until I tap the keg.

The last brew I tapped (5K Brewing Chincade IPA) lost a great deal of the very clearly defined hop flavors and aromas that were present at 1 week in the fermentor until I tapped the keg at 7 weeks.

Don't get me wrong, the finished beer is excellent, but the distinct and well defined flavors and aromas are muddied. For example, after 1 week in the fermentor, the taste of orange was very distinct. It was like you had just bitten a slice of orange. At 7 weeks, orange is a pale background note behind the grapefruit - which is also not all that sharply defined.

What causes the hop flavors and aromas to fade and muddy like this? Is it oxidation? Should I be blanketing my beer with CO2 while aging? Or is it just the normal degradation of hop oils and acids over time? In any case, I think I will tap the next keg at 5 weeks instead of 7 and see if I notice a difference.

Thanks for any insight.

 

[fizgig]

Woah, 7 weeks? I go 2-3 weeks max boil-drinking. Oxygen will have an affect as well as time. I push to my purged kegs with the dry hops in them from the fermenter with co2, better bottle with elbow adapter at the top with the gas, racking adapter to liquid ball lock, bare gas ball lock with tube under star san solution. Takes a while at like just barely a hiss but it's worth it.

 

[kmckiou]

Woah, 7 weeks? I go 2-3 weeks max boil-drinking. Oxygen will have an affect as well as time. I push to my purged kegs with the dry hops in them from the fermenter with co2, better bottle with elbow adapter at the top with the gas, racking adapter to liquid ball lock, bare gas ball lock with tube under star san solution. Takes a while at like just barely a hiss but it's worth it.

OK. So you are racking your almost finished beer from the fermentor to a keg with dry hops using C02 pressure. It sounds like a very conservative approach to racking. It does raise some questions:

• I like the idea of dry hopping it the keg, but how do you keep the hops from fouling the pickup tube and ball lock valve? Are your hops in bags? I use whole hops and, for sure, they would foul up everything.
• Do you find you are getting a lot of yeast and other debris in your keg? I am going from a conical fermenter to a secondary fermentor (at 2 weeks - after dry-hopping) for 3 weeks to settle out the yeast and hop debris

I am going to rack my already dry-hopped Chincade APA to a secondary fermentor today. I think I will take the extra precaution of purging the secondary with CO2 and I will keg and tap it earlier. I would love it if I could go right from the primary conical to the keg and dry-hop in the keg, but my experience has been that I pick up a lot of crud in the keg that takes a long time to clear.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I use hop bags and dryhop in the keg. You can weave a fishing line through the lid and hang the bag inside. I primary for about a week, maybe 10 days, and then dryhop for 5. Sometimes I'll do multiple dryhops. And then I drink it. A hoppy beer should be gone within 3 weeks of packaging and should be packaged within about 2 weeks of brewing. Otherwise the hops oxidize out and taste bad. I don't want to taste the malt I want to taste the hops!!

 

[Yooper]

I
The last brew I tapped (5K Brewing Chincade IPA) lost a great deal of the very clearly defined hop flavors and aromas that were present at 1 week in the fermentor until I tapped the keg at 7 weeks.

..............................................
What causes the hop flavors and aromas to fade and muddy like this? Is it oxidation? Should I be blanketing my beer with CO2 while aging? Or is it just the normal degradation of hop oils and acids over time? In any case, I think I will tap the next keg at 5 weeks instead of 7 and see if I notice a difference.

Thanks for any insight.

My IPAs are generally gone by the time they are 5 weeks old, or sooner. Aging is what is responsible for the loss of hops flavor and aroma.

I'd tap much sooner than 5 weeks, if you want hops flavor in your IPA.

Here's what it says on a Pliny the Elder bottle (one of my favorite DIPAs around!):
"Respect your elder. Keep Cold. Drink Fresh. Pliny the Elder is a historical figure, don’t make the beer inside this bottle one! Not a barley wine, do not age! Age your cheese, not your Pliny! Respect hops, consume fresh. If you must, sit on eggs, not on Pliny! Do not save for a rainy day! Pliny is for savoring, not for saving! Consume Pliny fresh or not at all! Does not improve with age! Hoppy beers are not meant to be aged! Keep away from heat!"

The late great Michael Jackson (the Beer Hunter, not the pop star) said this: "If you see a beer, do it a favor, and drink it. Beer was not meant to age".

In other words, aging a beer will change it. Most of the time, not for the better, but some beers with complex flavors and very high ABV need some age. I'd age a Belgian tripel, a dopplebock, a barley wine, a Russian imperial stout- but not a pale ale, a blonde, an IPA, etc.

 

[kmckiou]

My IPAs are generally gone by the time they are 5 weeks old, or sooner. Aging is what is responsible for the loss of hops flavor and aroma.

I'd tap much sooner than 5 weeks, if you want hops flavor in your IPA.

It is clear I have been aging my beer way too long. I just racked a dry-hopped APA to a secondary for clarifying (took fizgig advice and purged with CO2). I tasted the sample I took for gravity measurement and I was really surprised that, except for carbonating, I could drink it right now. No apparent rough edges. After one week in the secondary I am going to keg it. One week in the keg and I will tap it. That will be 4 weeks boil kettle to glass. I'd probably keg and tap it sooner, but I have to drink 5 gal of IPA first.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Cyclman]

I find that hoppy beers do evolve, over days if not weeks. I have a Double American Dark Ale (can't call it Black IPA- just can't do it) that I used way too much Chinook in. It was like drinking pine tar in chocolate- not my thing. Now, 6 months later, it is hoppy, bitter, and delicious, without the pine. I did a huge DIPA, after 4 weeks didn't care much for it, 2 months in it is incredible (loads of "C Hops" in that one).

Most of my IPAs I drink pretty young, and they are at their best, but I have found, even this is not absolute.

I have been very lucky to have a dozen or so pints of Pliny in the past year, drunk young, and they were incredible. Titan IPA from O'Dells is also best young in my experience.

Maybe I need to work more on my water, don't know. Love my IPA's anyhow.

 

[fizgig]

OK. So you are racking your almost finished beer from the fermentor to a keg with dry hops using C02 pressure. It sounds like a very conservative approach to racking. It does raise some questions:

• I like the idea of dry hopping it the keg, but how do you keep the hops from fouling the pickup tube and ball lock valve? Are your hops in bags? I use whole hops and, for sure, they would foul up everything.
• Do you find you are getting a lot of yeast and other debris in your keg? I am going from a conical fermenter to a secondary fermentor (at 2 weeks - after dry-hopping) for 3 weeks to settle out the yeast and hop debris

I am going to rack my already dry-hopped Chincade APA to a secondary fermentor today. I think I will take the extra precaution of purging the secondary with CO2 and I will keg and tap it earlier. I would love it if I could go right from the primary conical to the keg and dry-hop in the keg, but my experience has been that I pick up a lot of crud in the keg that takes a long time to clear.

I use one of these http://www.homebrewing.org/New-Corny-Keg-Lid-with-welded-tab-lid-o-ring-included_p_3946.html, tie the hop bag to it, after a couple of weeks it's probably off the liquid anyway as it hangs in the top 1/3 of the keg. First pour or two is cloudy but I don't care, better than losing beer, after that it gets pretty clear.

 

[Calichusetts]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/top-10-tips-super-hoppy-ipa.html

 

[kmckiou]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/top-10-tips-super-hoppy-ipa.html

Yep. That is a great article. I actually have been doing pretty well with almost all of it except keeping it in the keg too long. It really became obvious when I racked my latest APA to the secondary for clarifying. It is only 2 weeks since the boil and it was already very nice, light, hoppy and had no apparent off-flavors. I have been wasting my hop dollars by over-aging my beers.

The other thing which may have hurt me is failure to purge the secondary with CO2 before racking to it. I always purge the keg, but have probably exposed the beer to too much O2 in the secondary.

The other thing I would like to try is an additional dry-hop in the keg. I like this idea. This has been a very helpful thread!

 

[maxxxx]

I was not sure if this was the right forum to discuss this, so I will be happy to move the thread if I am in the wrong place.

I have noticed lately that my hoppy brews have been losing a great deal of hop "definition" from the time primary fermentation is complete until I tap the keg.

The last brew I tapped (5K Brewing Chincade IPA) lost a great deal of the very clearly defined hop flavors and aromas that were present at 1 week in the fermentor until I tapped the keg at 7 weeks.

Don't get me wrong, the finished beer is excellent, but the distinct and well defined flavors and aromas are muddied. For example, after 1 week in the fermentor, the taste of orange was very distinct. It was like you had just bitten a slice of orange. At 7 weeks, orange is a pale background note behind the grapefruit - which is also not all that sharply defined.

What causes the hop flavors and aromas to fade and muddy like this? Is it oxidation? Should I be blanketing my beer with CO2 while aging? Or is it just the normal degradation of hop oils and acids over time? In any case, I think I will tap the next keg at 5 weeks instead of 7 and see if I notice a difference.

Thanks for any insight.

Dude you need to be tapping your hoppy beers (pales and IPAs) within 12 to 14 days of the brewday!
1. Dry hop in primary after 5 days of fermentation
2. 5 days after dry hopping, cold crash for 24-48 hours
3. After cold crash, keg using CO2 to blanket as well as transfer
4. Dial CO2 up to 35 lbs. of pressure, leave for 24 hours @ 34 deg. F
5. The next day reduce CO2 to serving pressure, mine is about 8 lbs. and enjoy a pint.
Note: Be sure to pitch a lot of yeast so that the little buggers burn thru your wort and your target FG is hit fast.