Looser bag mesh for recirculating BIAB?

[RichBenn]

I have a three kettle electric HEMS system that will do fly sparging, batch sparging, or recirculating BIAB. I find myself doing more BIAB as of late. But I have problems with re-circulation where I have to close or turn off the pump to avoid sucking air due to not enough flow through the bag. I have ZERO problems with my regular mash tun recirculating at full speed.

The bag is a standard Voile bag. Doing a lot of reading, this is great for non-recirculating BIAB, but causes problems with re-circulation. There are many partial solutions, grind, rice hulls, etc, but looking through the threads a common theme is getting more flow. 400 micron or larger mesh baskets do not seem to have as much problem, for example.

So anyone know of a fabric that is a little larger hole size? My wife sewed up the current one and used Voile, which appears a little too tight. It appears to be the same material as the commercial bags.

 

[madscientist451]

The bag is a standard Voile bag. Doing a lot of reading, this is great for non-recirculating BIAB, but causes problems with re-circulation.

I'm skeptical there is any such thing as a standard bag, I've bought a few at homebrew shops that are different. There's a HBT member that makes bags, perhaps he can weigh in on different bag mesh sizes.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Describe your false bottom? A standard false bottom plus a bag, I'm guessing almost any bag will reduce the open area substantially with a standard FB.

I've never used one, but the open wire mesh false bottoms specifically for biab from brewhardware.com seem to be a common fix for biab recirculating issues.

 

[RichBenn]

Describe your false bottom? A standard false bottom plus a bag, I'm guessing almost any bag will reduce the open area substantially with a standard FB.

I've never used one, but the open wire mesh false bottoms specifically for biab from brewhardware.com seem to be a common fix for biab recirculating issues.

I am using the Bayou SS stockpot steamer basket with the voile bag inside. Works "sometimes". I've gone through several of the threads, including ones that recommend Brewhardware's BIAB false bottom, but some eBIAB recirculators "still" have problems, even with commercial bags like yours, coarser grind, rice hulls, Bobbie's false bottom, etc.

I don't want to half ass the solution. I'll drop eBIAB rather than have another panic day. Reading through hundreds of posts and other research, I'm convinced that the mesh size is critical for recirculation. To small and you have suction issues, and too big and you let grain through. The newer all in one e systems using ss mesh have settled on ~400 micron. I believe Voile is about twice as fine. The key would be finding looser bag material but as strong as Voile, IMHO. If I don't find something, I'm going to eventually chop up my steamer basket and weld mesh to it.

 

[wilserbrewer]

As a polyester fabric increases in porosity its strength likely decreases proportionally, but since you are lining a basket the limiting factor may just be the total open area of the basket. With the basket you wouldn't really need that strong a bag? Coarser bag fabric, slower recirculating, or more open area through the basket, a coarser crush, rice hills, holding off a few minutes to recirculate...

Idk, perhaps placing a pizza screen in the basket bottom prior to the bag would provide more open area for the bag to drain.

The other thread you mentioned is rather exhausting.

Poly voile fabric also varies as well, might yours be too restrictive?

 

[RichBenn]

I've read "several" long threads on the subject. You are right, they are exhausting. The problem always is all the variables make it hard to accept anecdotal evidence. A person changes to device "B", re circulation, but was inadvertently also comparing brews with different grind or grain bills or some other impacting variable.

I was all ready to switch to Brewhardware's new false bottom when I found reports of still stuck re-circulation. But several have also reported better results switching from the basket I'm using to Bobby's device. Guess I could PM some of the people to see if their results still hold after many brews.

 

[PsychoBiter]

I had issues with my bag and recirculating so we went with a solid sided basket with a 400micron bottom. I am still trying to get it where I can recirculate enough to eventually run a RIMS to maintain temps. I am still not there yet. But only a couple of brews since. I bought a mill and will be experimenting with crush to see if I can dial it in. Some folks have had luck with waiting 15 minutes after mash in/stirring to let the grainbed settle and slowly ramp up flow.

For a cheaper option you may look at the paint strainer bags from homedepot/lowes. I think they have a coarser mesh and typical BIAB bags.

 

[RichBenn]

I had issues with my bag and recirculating so we went with a solid sided basket with a 400micron bottom. I am still trying to get it where I can recirculate enough to eventually run a RIMS to maintain temps. I am still not there yet. But only a couple of brews since. I bought a mill and will be experimenting with crush to see if I can dial it in. Some folks have had luck with waiting 15 minutes after mash in/stirring to let the grainbed settle and slowly ramp up flow.

For a cheaper option you may look at the paint strainer bags from homedepot/lowes. I think they have a coarser mesh and typical BIAB bags.

Slowly ramping up the flow over 10 minutes is needed even with a regular recirculateing mash. Amount of oats and wheat and other gummy stuff can be an issue as well. Another factor I've thought of in my case, when doing BIAB, is having air produced(localized boiling) at the heating elements during temperature increases. This is different than the HERMS mash setup, which I circulate full bore once the grain bed is set. I think any flow restriction causes more air bubbles near the base due to the elements and can't easily escape.

I've moved my PID temperature sensor for the boil kettle from the recirculation port to a new hole in the tank near the elements. I'm hoping this minimizes over heating during low flow, so that may help too. Should have saved some spent grain so I could test without wasting a batch.

 

[dmtaylor]

My LHBS sells bags with bigger mesh in the wine section of the store, and that's what I use for BIAB. I actually "recirculate" every mash through a colander with one of these bags folded on top of it, which provides extra filtering but not so much that it gets stuck on the way through, just takes out the bigger particles and results in a much clearer wort. If you actually recirculate with your system, you can of course use one of these and then let it go for 5 minutes or whatever until it runs clear as crystal. Just the particles in the mash itself will provide the filtration that is needed, not the bag itself. The bag just stops the bigger pieces, then the finer pieces provide the filtering thereafter.

The bag I use looks something like this, and might be sold more on the wine side of a store than the beer side, as I think it's really intended for removing grape skins from wine, etc.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/mesh-bag-24.html

Good luck.

 

[RichBenn]

My LHBS sells bags with bigger mesh in the wine section of the store, and that's what I use for BIAB. I actually "recirculate" every mash through a colander with one of these bags folded on top of it, which provides extra filtering but not so much that it gets stuck on the way through, just takes out the bigger particles and results in a much clearer wort. If you actually recirculate with your system, you can of course use one of these and then let it go for 5 minutes or whatever until it runs clear as crystal. Just the particles in the mash itself will provide the filtration that is needed, not the bag itself. The bag just stops the bigger pieces, then the finer pieces provide the filtering thereafter.

The bag I use looks something like this, and might be sold more on the wine side of a store than the beer side, as I think it's really intended for removing grape skins from wine, etc.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/mesh-bag-24.html

Good luck.

Thanks! Hard to say what the mesh size is on these - I guess I should ask them.

I do wine(from grapes), but have never used a bag for filtering, except for a kit wine with grape skins. Those come with single use muslin bags. I gather some use them for crushing fruit wines with a press.

 

[TexasWine]

Wilser bag + Bobby's false bottom causes no issues in my recirculating BIAB. It was all the other variables that were the culprits, with the streamer basket probably being the biggest.

My recommendation is to get rid of that basket. I even punched a bunch of bug holes in mine, and it worked sometimes.

Another thing you should consider if you don't have a three to six roller mill is grain conditioning and set the mill gap to around 0.040 to 0.050.

I think you'll solve your problem just doing these things.

 

[RichBenn]

Wilser bag + Bobby's false bottom causes no issues in my recirculating BIAB. It was all the other variables that were the culprits, with the streamer basket probably being the biggest.

My recommendation is to get rid of that basket. I even punched a bunch of bug holes in mine, and it worked sometimes.

Another thing you should consider if you don't have a three to six roller mill is grain conditioning and set the mill gap to around 0.040 to 0.050.

I think you'll solve your problem just doing these things.

Thanks. I read many of your prior posts, and was going PM you to see if anything changed, as you were using the Bayou basket. Guess I'll buy the Brewhardware device and a winch and try it.

I have done a 0.045-0.050 grind with recirculating BIAB before, but don't have the records on what happened, as I was chasing efficiency, water chemistry and other problems at the time. And I have had several BIAB runs with 0.035 or less grinds that were fine. Always too many variables when you don't brew the same beer on the same system each time. My system will do any type of brewing, so I've been doing three vessel batch or fly sparging, which have never produced a stuck sparge. Super high efficiency on the fly sparged brews, but long brew day.

 

[RichBenn]

Long term update - Bobby's(BrewHardware) false bottom seems to have done the trick.

 

[JDXX1971]

Long term update - Bobby's(BrewHardware) false bottom seems to have done the trick.

Yes they sure do along with Wilsers bags. I can run my pump wide open for most mashes if I wanted to.

 

[PsychoBiter]

Yes they sure do along with Wilsers bags. I can run my pump wide open for most mashes if I wanted to.

I had the opposite with my bag from Wliser with a false bottom. The bag would fill up like a ballon and slowly drain, even in the sides above the grain bed. This happened when we would raise the bag as well. The pump would suck all the wort from the bottom and start cavitating. We even crushed a false bottoms. We moved to a solid sides basket and have had better luck.

 

[JDXX1971]

I had the opposite with my bag from Wliser with a false bottom.

Was this with a Brew Hardware BIAB false bottom?

 

[PsychoBiter]

Was this with a Brew Hardware BIAB false bottom?

No, but it was a DIY with good flow characteristics. But not as stoutly built. It was plenty strong to hold up a wet bag of grain, even full of wort. It would have been fine if the bag was flowing better and not being sucked down by the pump. It didn’t collapse from just the weight of the bag/grains/wort.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I had the opposite with my bag from Wliser with a false bottom. The bag would fill up like a ballon and slowly drain, even in the sides above the grain bed. This happened when we would raise the bag as well. The pump would suck all the wort from the bottom and start cavitating. We even crushed a false bottoms. We moved to a solid sides basket and have had better luck.

If your using a basket with a bag inside theres not enough flow. Ditch the basket and see where you get. Otherwise stop recirculating altogether. Makes no difference in the finished product. Recirculating makes the brewer happy not the beer happy

 

[JDXX1971]

Recirculating makes the brewer happy not the beer happy

I almost, just almost brewed my last brew without recirculation or anything other than the bag and pot. I just couldn't do it, but in the end I was happy, probably would have been less happy knowing I didn't need all my equipment.

 

[Setsumi]

I almost, just almost brewed my last brew without recirculation or anything other than the bag and pot. I just couldn't do it, but in the end I was happy, probably would have been less happy knowing I didn't need all my equipment.

I drain my BIAB into a second vessel and recirculate from the second vessel back to pot. I can control the flow better and it allows for more wort, on brutus 20 style. I can heat the second vessel to do step mashes and mashout without worrying about the bag. The only bother is I have to protect the pickup tube to keep the bag from sucking into it.

 

[PsychoBiter]

If your using a basket with a bag inside theres not enough flow. Ditch the basket and see where you get. Otherwise stop recirculating altogether. Makes no difference in the finished product. Recirculating makes the brewer happy not the beer happy

Never used a basket with a bag.
Recirculating does not make the brewer happy, but a consistent mash temperature does. That does make a difference in the end product. In our system, heating the mash requires recirculation.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Recirculating does not make the brewer happy, but a consistent mash temperature does. That does make a difference in the end product. In our system, heating the mash requires recirculation.

I've brewed the same beer from 160 to 148 and couldn't tell the difference. Of course they weren't side by side as they were brewed at different times but it tasted the same and that's all that counts. I'd say the average temp drop is about 4 deg over an hour. Makes no difference. I have an electric system and don't even use the pid during mash anymore. I get it to mash temp and kill the power for the hour. I give it a stir a few times during the mash just because it keeps me busy. Whether its needed or not I couldn't say but it makes me happy. I recirculated a few times and it was more of a pain than it was worth and noticed zero difference so I stopped...again if it makes the brewer happy or plan on mass marketing your beer and need exactly the same thing over millions of bottles than go for it, It is supposed to be a fun hobby after all. On our level its not needed.

An interesting test you might find interesting

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjY0JCzrK3ZAhXwxlkKHT_nAl8QFggzMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrulosophy.com%2F2015%2F10%2F12%2Fthe-mash-high-vs-low-temperature-exbeeriment-results%2F&usg=AOvVaw2iZnYSxFDYjlA2bQw81B2m.

 

[Tim K]

I've got a 400 micron Brewbag and I crush my grain at .015 so it's pretty much flour and I don't have any problems recirculating unless I'm using flaked grains and running my pump flat out. I've got a 16 gallon Bayou Classic pot with their false bottom. My 200 micron bag wouldn't let me recirculate without slowing down the flow to the point of uselessness.