Looking for a little input...

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head

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Hi everyone, it's been a while since I've been on here, and i've run into something.

I was doing a large all grain batch of Old Jubilation clone. When I finished rinsing the grain there was still more sugars coming out, so I since I had more water I decided to run another 5 gallons through and try out another beer from second runnings. It looked fine, so I tossed in the hops that I grew in the boil.

When fermentation was finished it was cloudy like dark tea cloudy, so I added finings, cleared it and bottled.

It smells like heneiken, and tastes kind of like it as well, while being a dark amber.

I don't like it, use it for cooking. I want to make sure that I don't make a beer like this again.

Thoughts?
 

duboman

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Actually what you did is called partigyle brewing where you make two batches from one grain bill, first, then second runnings.

Had you used fresh hops in the second batch instead of the used hops you probably would have wound up with a better beer

Sure, go ahead and use it for cooking or what have you, or give it friends that enjoy Heinekin if that's what they like
 
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head

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Used fresh hops that I grew in my garden, sorry I wasn't clear enough.

They were sterling.

Could the astringent flavor be from using too high a temp on the rinse?
 

jeepinjeepin

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head said:
Used fresh hops that I grew in my garden, sorry I wasn't clear enough.

They were sterling.

Could the astringent flavor be from using too high a temp on the rinse?
More likely that your pH rose too high during the sparge.
 
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head

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Tips to avoid this in the future?

Appreciate the input.
 

jeepinjeepin

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Was the first beer fine and the second one astringent? If so:

You can get pH strips and test your runoff every so often to monitor pH. I guess you could also slightly acidify your sparge water or add some acidulated malt during the second sparge if you want to try that again.

I'm really not the one to ask about water though. I almost know enough to be dangerous.
 
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head

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Thanks! I'll keep that in mind next time. Never considered it could be ph.

Yeah first beer turned out pretty spot on for Avery old jubilation.

Some people don't mind the taste of the experiment, but it bugs me.

Doesn't negatively change the taste in marinades or in beer cheese soup. So, I guess it will be free fodder for those who want it and cooking.
 

boist

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It does sound like something happened in the second running. Two culprits to consider are PH (as mentioned) and water temp. The temp thing is easy: just keep it below 76C.

The PH thing is a little more complicated, since you have to know the PH of the mash as Jeepinjeepin explained. I highly recommend you follow his advice and get PH paper before you try this next time.

You basically need to know two things: The PH of the mash (important!) and the PH of the sparge water (not as important, but a lot easier to get). The PH of the mash is a little tricky, because you wont know it until you do it. So what you can do is this: Take a PH of the first runnings. If you are fly sparging, then take a reading towards the end of the sparge. This will give you an indication of where your mash is at present. Theoretically, you should keep it between 5.2 and 5.8, with anything below 6.4 considered "OK".

Now here's the trick: The more you sparge your grain, the more the PH will tend to climb, and the more tanins will get extracted. In order to prevent that from happening, you need to acidify the mash. You can do that by modifying the mash itself (by adding acidulated malt) or by using low PH sparge water. The benefit of the second method is that it is easier to adjust.

Ideally your sparge water should be between PH 5.2 and 5.4. You can achive this by adding food grade phosphoric acid or lactic acid to your water. I know that about half a tbsp of 80% Phosphoric acid is enough to acidify about 5g of my water. Your water may have a different acidity than mine, so my suggession is that you add a little bit (half a tsp) of acid at a time and keep taking PH readings until you hit the right range. Keep in mind: most PH paper is designed to work at room temp, so if you dip it directly in your HLT you'll get a wrong reading. Instead, take a small sample (smaller the better, since it will cool faster) and measure that. Once you've reached the desired range you can go ahead and sparge. Again, as you did with the water, you should take a couple of PH readings in a small room-temperature sample, just to make sure that the overall PH doesn't go over 5.8. If it does, add a little bit more acid to the water.

I know this sounds like a hassle, but after you do this once or twice you will have the process dialed-in, and then you can take just two measurements (one of the water, one of the mash) just to verify everything works. The upshot is that if you do get this process down, you can produce a whole other batch from the same grain (you can even produce completely different beers by "capping" or adding more grains to the mash before the second sparge) Partygail is great if you do it right!


Good luck
 
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head

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It does sound like something happened in the second running. Two culprits to consider are PH (as mentioned) and water temp. The temp thing is easy: just keep it below 76C.

The PH thing is a little more complicated, since you have to know the PH of the mash as Jeepinjeepin explained. I highly recommend you follow his advice and get PH paper before you try this next time.

You basically need to know two things: The PH of the mash (important!) and the PH of the sparge water (not as important, but a lot easier to get). The PH of the mash is a little tricky, because you wont know it until you do it. So what you can do is this: Take a PH of the first runnings. If you are fly sparging, then take a reading towards the end of the sparge. This will give you an indication of where your mash is at present. Theoretically, you should keep it between 5.2 and 5.8, with anything below 6.4 considered "OK".

Now here's the trick: The more you sparge your grain, the more the PH will tend to climb, and the more tanins will get extracted. In order to prevent that from happening, you need to acidify the mash. You can do that by modifying the mash itself (by adding acidulated malt) or by using low PH sparge water. The benefit of the second method is that it is easier to adjust.

Ideally your sparge water should be between PH 5.2 and 5.4. You can achive this by adding food grade phosphoric acid or lactic acid to your water. I know that about half a tbsp of 80% Phosphoric acid is enough to acidify about 5g of my water. Your water may have a different acidity than mine, so my suggession is that you add a little bit (half a tsp) of acid at a time and keep taking PH readings until you hit the right range. Keep in mind: most PH paper is designed to work at room temp, so if you dip it directly in your HLT you'll get a wrong reading. Instead, take a small sample (smaller the better, since it will cool faster) and measure that. Once you've reached the desired range you can go ahead and sparge. Again, as you did with the water, you should take a couple of PH readings in a small room-temperature sample, just to make sure that the overall PH doesn't go over 5.8. If it does, add a little bit more acid to the water.

I know this sounds like a hassle, but after you do this once or twice you will have the process dialed-in, and then you can take just two measurements (one of the water, one of the mash) just to verify everything works. The upshot is that if you do get this process down, you can produce a whole other batch from the same grain (you can even produce completely different beers by "capping" or adding more grains to the mash before the second sparge) Partygail is great if you do it right!


Good luck
Nice! Thanks for the help. Sounds easy enough.

Appreciate everyone who posted. Where's the thanks button? I'll settle for the "like" button.
 

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