Long time no see - advancing to Lager

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Braumeise

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Hey everybody,

I haven't been here quite a while. Lot's of things going on and 2016 could just go away now.
However I have managed to brew a wit beer that I am super happy with and even have a local Pub interested in putting it on tap. Guess that's pretty okay even given my very high standards I am holding myself to.

sooooo... I'll dare to advance to Lager now

I am currently studding recipes. Haven't found one yet that looks totally appealing. So if you care to point me to your favorites I'd love to get some input.

I am looking for something really smooth, slightly bitter and like in the Augustiner Helles I would love to get the hints of vanilla and lily of the valley that I personally LOVE in the Augustiner shine through...

I'll keep y'all posted on how it goes.
 
ignore the snarky intro bit: here.

Looking at this briefly, maybe this would be worth trying.

"hints of vanilla and lily of the valley" sounds difficult to replicate and makes me think that you're going to working on this for a while. Do you maybe have another lager you wouldn't mind trying to replicate?
 
ignore the snarky intro bit: here.

Looking at this briefly, maybe this would be worth trying.

*haha... I have already done that and even in German - for my personal understanding while reading the recipes none of them strikes me as - ah! that one must be it.
Might be me and I might have to try them all to figure out which one gets me close.
Closest I found to probably the original works with splitting the grain from the hulls and adding a extract of the hulls later... as Augustiner claims to be brewing their Helles that way. And I had found the one you have linked and bookmarked it. Something sounded "wrong" to me when I read it - especially when I compare the grain bill to the german ones I found however I will definitely brew that one and see how close it gets to the original.

I am just looking at recipes right now trying to determine if there is anything that sounds appealing to me and that sounds as if it would get me close to where I want to get.
"hints of vanilla and lily of the valley" sounds difficult to replicate and makes me think that you're going to working on this for a while.

I worked on my wit beer for a year so I am not scared of trial and error

Do you maybe have another lager you wouldn't mind trying to replicate?

actually Augustiner -better the lack of opportunity to buy it here - started my brewing adventure. So... uhm....

Weihenstephan has a quite drinkable Lager however I personally find that one a little to the sweet side and not as full bodied.

Wow - I can't think of any other Lager I really like.

I don't mind trying other options though - that was my reason for asking
maybe I'll come up with a lager I actually like better than Augustiner (very unlikely but hey, you never know) :)

So let me rephrase my question:

do you guys mind sharing your favorite, lightly hopped, smooth, slightly sweet yet full bodied lager reciepe with me... :)

Mille Grazie!
 
When you find a good recipe that clones that lager, be sure to share it. It must really be something.

I suck at flavor descriptions, but I think the closest I've come to what you're describing wasn't even a true lager, it was more like a Kolsch that I fermented with Wyeast 1007. I think I tweaked Jamil's recipe by scaling it down and subbing some pils malt for pils DME.

As for true lagers, I made some SMaSH munich malt and hallertau hop beers that turned out pretty well. I think it would mostly fit what you're asking for. Probably a little boring for most people, though. It taught me something about what kind of product one can get with a few simple ingredients.

Good luck.
 
Maybe try an all pils malt recipe first with a noble hop. That way you have a blank canvas to refine your lager making skills. More attention to detail is needed. I pretty much only make lagers and I am trying to make the perfect beer for me also... It's hard!
 
Maybe try an all pils malt recipe first with a noble hop. That way you have a blank canvas to refine your lager making skills. More attention to detail is needed. I pretty much only make lagers and I am trying to make the perfect beer for me also... It's hard!

That sounds like a very good idea.
 
When you find a good recipe that clones that lager, be sure to share it. It must really be something.

Will do.

I suck at flavor descriptions, but I think the closest I've come to what you're describing wasn't even a true lager, it was more like a Kolsch that I fermented with Wyeast 1007. I think I tweaked Jamil's recipe by scaling it down and subbing some pils malt for pils DME.

I'll look into that, thanks
As for true lagers, I made some SMaSH munich malt and hallertau hop beers that turned out pretty well. I think it would mostly fit what you're asking for. Probably a little boring for most people, though. It taught me something about what kind of product one can get with a few simple ingredients.

Good luck.

Thank you for your thoughts, it helps me to sort my squirrelbrain and find a start and direction :)
 
Hey everybody,

I am looking for something really smooth, slightly bitter and like in the Augustiner Helles I would love to get the hints of vanilla and lily of the valley that I personally LOVE in the Augustiner shine through...

I'll keep y'all posted on how it goes.
Hi. Apparently, you aren't the only one looking. Did you review this thread? If not, it might provide a little more insight. Also, I agree with Kent88 and Casualbrewer. Start with a SMaSH of Pilsner and a noble hop (I think Spalt might give you a profile closer to what you seek.) To get the maltiness normally found in a Helles, you'll probably need to add some Vienna or maybe Light Munich. Do that after you hit the right hop schedule. Also, I think the yeast you use will also be important. I'd start with S-189, or if going liquid, try WLP830 or 833, Imperial L17, Wyeast 2633. Since you were persistent (and successful) in your efforts to brew the "perfect" Witbier, you should do great with this one too. By all means, please share once you hit the sweet spot. Ed
:mug:
 
Then again, there are some who claim that you cannot brew a proper Helles unless you follow Low DO (Dissolved Oxygen) techniques. Here's the link where it's been discussed/beaten to death. I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to its validity, but if you have the time and inclination to review the almost 100 pages, it might also prove entertaining/enlightening. Ed
:mug:
 
Then again, there are some who claim that you cannot brew a proper Helles unless you follow Low DO (Dissolved Oxygen) techniques. Here's the link where it's been discussed/beaten to death. I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to its validity, but if you have the time and inclination to review the almost 100 pages, it might also prove entertaining/enlightening. Ed
:mug:

take a wild guess what I did... nope, not brewing Helles... I stuck to witbeer and read more.

Thanks for the links.

I do believe the solved oxigen is crucial... but I also talked to german homebrewers who have different thoughts.

I am gonna go with my "feeling" on this and do what makes sense to me.

Will finally brew two different Helles (recipes found on a german site, both won a Homebrew contest) this week and keep you all posted...

I have been "mixing" German advise and the advise you guys gave me here and so far had pretty good beers coming of that.
So I am hopeful...

wish me luck :)
 
care to share the recipes? Helles is my favorite style to date.



Trying to help bump this old thread. I live an hour an a half from munich and I partake in these augustiner beers quite a bit, but the green labeled helles is actually my least favorite. There are some very good beers in this region. If you are looking to learn a little bit about the beer, and also get a few recipes, on amazon for around 9 dollars, there is a book labeled Bavarian Helles: history brewing techniques, recipes. I would start there as it doesn't get any more close that that in my opinion. I brew helles beer in Germany also. Very hard to clone a style they have been doing for hundreds of years. if you ever see the gold labeled edelstoff helles by augustiner, that is a different story.:off:
 
Trying to help bump this old thread. I live an hour an a half from munich and I partake in these augustiner beers quite a bit, but the green labeled helles is actually my least favorite. There are some very good beers in this region. If you are looking to learn a little bit about the beer, and also get a few recipes, on amazon for around 9 dollars, there is a book labeled Bavarian Helles: history brewing techniques, recipes. I would start there as it doesn't get any more close that that in my opinion. I brew helles beer in Germany also. Very hard to clone a style they have been doing for hundreds of years. if you ever see the gold labeled edelstoff helles by augustiner, that is a different story.:off:

Cool. its on my book list for sure!
 
Trying to help bump this old thread. I live an hour an a half from munich and I partake in these augustiner beers quite a bit, but the green labeled helles is actually my least favorite. There are some very good beers in this region. If you are looking to learn a little bit about the beer, and also get a few recipes, on amazon for around 9 dollars, there is a book labeled Bavarian Helles: history brewing techniques, recipes. I would start there as it doesn't get any more close that that in my opinion. I brew helles beer in Germany also. Very hard to clone a style they have been doing for hundreds of years. if you ever see the gold labeled edelstoff helles by augustiner, that is a different story.:off:


Funny - I can buy Edelstoff here but not Helles. I never cared for Edelstoff while still in Munich and I actually only drank Helles ...

I would have never started brewing my own if I could buy Helles here... so I am not too upset.

I totally agree that there are some really good beers especially in the south of Germany... one of the best I ever had unfiltered beer from Lengries. But I wasn't much of a beerdrinker before I had my first Augustiner Helles from Tab so maybe that is why I swear by it...
 
Funny - I can buy Edelstoff here but not Helles. I never cared for Edelstoff while still in Munich and I actually only drank Helles ...

I would have never started brewing my own if I could buy Helles here... so I am not too upset.

I totally agree that there are some really good beers especially in the south of Germany... one of the best I ever had unfiltered beer from Lengries. But I wasn't much of a beerdrinker before I had my first Augustiner Helles from Tab so maybe that is why I swear by it...

Where are the recipes man? You holding out on us?
 
Funny - I can buy Edelstoff here but not Helles. I never cared for Edelstoff while still in Munich and I actually only drank Helles ...

I would have never started brewing my own if I could buy Helles here... so I am not too upset.

I totally agree that there are some really good beers especially in the south of Germany... one of the best I ever had unfiltered beer from Lengries. But I wasn't much of a beerdrinker before I had my first Augustiner Helles from Tab so maybe that is why I swear by it...

Baumeise, don't get me wrong, I have not found a bad beer in Germany yet. Even the hefe's which are my least favorite are still better than a coors light any day. maybe we could look into swapping beers at some point? I could mail you some augustiners for some homebrews or something. Beertrade is always good in my book.
 
As fate would have it, just saw this on the recipe thread:

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP 838
Yeast Starter: 1 Liter ACTIVE
Batch Size (Gallons): 10
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 16.0
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 4.3
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days at 51 degrees
Additional Fermentation: Diacetal rest after one week up to 65 degrees
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days at 39 degrees
Tasting Notes: Yes, you are in a giant beer tent in Munich!!!!



18.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 88.89 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.94 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.94 %
0.25 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 1.23 %
2.50 oz Hallertauer [3.80 %] (60 min) Hops 16.0 IBU
2 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Southern German Lager (White Labs #WLP838) [Starter 35 ml] Yeast-Lager
Gelatin in secondary

Lots to type- Instead of a decoction mash I used .25 pounds of Melanoiden and a pound of Munich. Of course you could leave that out, follow Kaiser's decoction advice and brew traditionally. You could also use some Vienna instead but it's up to you- of course.

I removed the amount of water additions because I certainly didn't want people adding random amounts of salts when they should follow their own reports to replicate Munich water.

I mashed at 154 for 90 minutes using a Sawdustguy RIMS system. 8 gallons of strike water and two 4 gallon sparges of 168 degree water.

I am a firm believer that pitching active yeast is just as, if not more, important than the starter size. Make sure that 838 is rolling and ready to eat so it has no problem taking off at 52 degrees.

Here is the story behind the beer and I'll follow up with some pictures if I can find them. This beer was brewed on 9-15-2010.





Every beer needs a story:

I have a long time friend (hell, we played Highschool football together in 1979-82- Oh GOD I'm old) named Rob. Rob works for a large Hotel chain and is married to a wonderful girl from Dublin, Ireland. Rob has relatives all over the world including a sister-in-law in Brazil and a Brother-in-law in Munich Germany so he travels the world and can eat and drink with the best of them. He’s been to Oktoberfest where he continually emailed us messages/pictures of him drinking in every tent he could find.

One Wednesday evening while druk and solving all the world’s problems I got the idea to replicate Rob’s favorite beer so I sent him this email:

“Hey Rob, you have now spent extensive time drinking in Germany. Southern Germany includes the state of Bavaria and includes Munich. (no I didn't know all that- I had to look it up as I'm a geographic idiot).
I have a couple German yeasts ready to use. One is a Southern German yeast called WLP 838. This is how it's described.
WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast
This yeast is characterized by a malty finish and balanced aroma. It is a strong fermentor, produces slight sulfur, and low diacetyl.
What was your favorite non-wheat beer in Munich? “

Within one minute he emailed back the following:

Dude, the beer in Munich is AWESOME!!!
My favorite is Augustiner & Pauliner is second, Hofbrau is good as well… and here are the specifics from your list.
Augustiner Lagerbier Hell
Augustiner Pils
Paulaner Premium Pils
Paulaner Original Münchner Hell
Hofbrau Fürsten Trunk

And thus was born my Munich Helles.

Now I know I didn't leave the beer on the yeast for 87 months, I use gelatin, love my secondaries and it goes against the HBT authorities. I also don't care for Pilsner malt but you certainly could use some or all for this recipe.

Change it, brew it, have fun and post your results. Buy some liter mugs, serve it to your friends and family. Show off that fluffy white head and clear golden beer.

You brewed this beer and it's great!!!!
 
Baumeise, don't get me wrong, I have not found a bad beer in Germany yet. Even the hefe's which are my least favorite are still better than a coors light any day. maybe we could look into swapping beers at some point? I could mail you some augustiners for some homebrews or something. Beertrade is always good in my book.

You can be my new best friend :)

I am in :)

I don't like hefe/Weißbier either... however I do really like the Wit beer I am brewing ...
It's hard to find bad beer in Germany that is absolutely correct but I very much dislike Schaufelbräu (Spaten), Löwenbräu, not a huge fan of any altbier, can't understand how Bitburger got so popular etc.

Coors ain't beer. It's hopflavored Seltzerwater with a hint of Alcohol :)
 
You can be my new best friend :)

I am in :)

I don't like hefe/Weißbier either... however I do really like the Wit beer I am brewing ...
It's hard to find bad beer in Germany that is absolutely correct but I very much dislike Schaufelbräu (Spaten), Löwenbräu, not a huge fan of any altbier, can't understand how Bitburger got so popular etc.

Coors ain't beer. It's hopflavored Seltzerwater with a hint of Alcohol :)

I definitely agree with the coors. There is a brewery in a small town here names wettlesheim, and they have the best hellbier I have found yet. are you able to get your hands on any shiner bock ruby red bird? that's the one beer I actually miss living over here. I could send you some augustiners and wettlesheimer beers for some of them
 
let me check on that. Girl who's horse lives in the stall next to mine is engaged to a beer distributor... They can usually get stuff that isn't in stores here. I'll let you know

Also I will check customs regulations. I wasn't allowed to send a flask of perfume to germany so I am not sure if they will let me send beer bottles instead :)
 
also.. side note:

chicken, pansy, coward and ADD-Squirrel that I am - I am going to give myself one more brew (two batches) of neither wit nor lager... I'll brew Ale and a stout this time...

I am such a coward... lager intimidates me... seriously - won't hurt to make an Ale first... I guess... :)
 
I have an APO address so it is like sending mail within the states. And lagering is easy also! it just makes brewing beer a little harder because you have an additional waiting period. I "try" my best to keep kegs lined up in my cellar so that they can age, and are naturally priming with sugar as they wait. But I mostly brew lagers. Just the styles of beer I like always recommend lager yeast, nothing against ales though. the biggest thing is you need to control your temperature. other than that, brew as advertised
 
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