LOB Alternative To Dry Hopping: Making A Hop Tea or DIY Hop Extract.

[Schlenkerla]

I have thought about this for awhile.

-Today I posted this in few places but I think this this is worth a separate thread. -

Anyhow, I recall reading an article in BYO about using a French Coffee Press for adding hop flavor. I can't find the old BYO article... Here's other sources.

Sources:
Use Hops Tea to Enhance Flavors in Your Beer
Boost Your Hop Aroma (Part 3 of 3: Aroma Extract)

However with LOB you need to do things differently.

A) Dosing your hop tea/extract with Sodium Metabisulfate, Asorbic Acid and Brewtan-B.(Trifecta)

Trifecta Calculator
​

B) Using a carbonator cap and 2-Liter Bottle.

C) Perform a closed transfer.​

For discussions sake lets differentiate Tea vs Extract. The Tea is water and the Extract is using wort. The latter could be a hopped gyle or krausen.

Here is what I did. Making a Tea. Using Citra Cryo LupuLN2

1) Measured out a 1-liter trifecta using Sodium Metabisulfate, Asorbic Acid and Brewtan-B.
2) Dropped 20mg, 20mg, 40mg into a liter of post boiled water
3) Then poured it on an oz of Citra cryo in my coffee press.
4) Gently stirred and let it steep 10 minutes.
5) Then slowly pressed the hops to separate the particulate hop tea.
6) Poured it in a sanitized 2-liter (2L) bottle.
7) Using my carbonating cap and put 10psi on it.
8) Next, I inverted it to use the CO2 pressure to force it into my closed and purged keg. Using a gray gas connect on the 2L bottle and a black keg disconnect on liquid out. Both connected with a 3ft 3/16" transfer line. Popping off the black disconnect just before the 2L ran empty.
9) I had to vent my keg afterwards.
10) Then did my closed transfer for my pale ale and spunded.

FWIW - I ferment purge my keg

a) Connect the fermenter CO2 vent to keg liquid out
b) Connect keg gas hose into to a growler full of sanitizer.​

At keg filling time I swap the keg connections.

a) Connect the fermenter CO2 vent to keg gas in
b) Connect the keg liquid out to the fermenter drain.​

Every thing is 1/4" flare so its easy and air tight.

The 2L was very clean, no particles got into the keg from what I could tell.

One mistake I made was not checking the tea temp. It boiled, I cooled it for a brief time then, so I think the temp drop was near the isomerization threadhold. I'm sure adding to a non preheated press dropped the temp a good bit. If I had a mulligan I would have checked the temperature.

Don't know how it's gonna taste. It smelled damn good. Thought i'd share.

Here's a some carbonator caps. Google Searched.

 

[RPh_Guy]

5) Then slowly pressed the hops to separate the particulate hop tea.

How do you press the hops without aerating it, or do you just rely on the sulfite?

I've been using hop tea instead of dry hops.

 

[perolavfk]

How did this turn out? Would you prefer this method to regular dry hopping flavourwise?

 

[Schlenkerla]

How do you press the hops without aerating it, or do you just rely on the sulfite?

I've been using hop tea instead of dry hops.

I take you have never used a French coffee press. Y/N? It's the same as making coffee. When I did this I used pellets instead of whole hops.

The plunger on the coffee press is laid on top of the tea like that of a mash cap. When you press the plunger down it's done very slowly so it doesn't spray up onto you. When you start to press it the plunger is submerged. I don't think there is much aeration from the plunging. I would think it's worse with the pouring. So yeah the sulfites are for the pouring and if there's anything from the steep. The steep is very close to boiling.

 

[Schlenkerla]

How did this turn out? Would you prefer this method to regular dry hopping flavourwise?

I tried and liked it Especially over having to hang hops in a beer with tea ball or hop sack. I did this because I was worried about grassiness of hops sitting in my beer too long. The beer was pretty hoppy.

Truth be told I have only done this once. Not because I didn't like it, just that I want to hop in the kettle and get away from using sulfites.

I'm six months into LOB. I'm resolved to the point I'm going to make the same three beer styles the same way for awhile to perfect my process. Not to mention, I'm about ready to switch from a cooler mash tun to stainless steel direct fire RIMS mash tun.

In the past I tended to tinker and tweak alot I'm trying to not do this and just make it one way with the goal to eliminate sulfites.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I would reasonably think another valid way is the cold brewing process similar to what's used for coffee. Hot water, say putting the hops into the coffee hopper and making a pot of hop "coffee" would extract unwanted bitterness. However, with the cold brewing process we'd extract the desired hop essence we seek. This is an interesting idea and I need to research it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Alpha acids reach their solubility limit, so a hop tea does not add a significant amount of bitterness.

I've used a tea 3 times so far. The flavor is excellent, better than dry hopping in my opinion.

I boiled around 0.75oz in 300-400mL RO water for 5-10 minutes and then chilled. I strained out the hop particles through a hop sock. Dipping that in the beer adds additional flavor.

 

[Miraculix]

Alpha acids reach their solubility limit, so a hop tea does not add a significant amount of bitterness.

I've used a tea 3 times so far. The flavor is excellent, better than dry hopping in my opinion.

I boiled around 0.75oz in 300-400mL RO water for 5-10 minutes and then chilled. I strained out the hop particles through a hop sock. Dipping that in the beer adds additional flavor.

The alpha solubility limit is significantly higher in plain water, compared to wort.

During my raw beer experiments I often bittered four to five gallon batches with only three liters of hop tea with the equal amount of hops I would have used if I would have boiled them in the wort.

I guess starting five degrees underneath the isomerisation temperature would be sufficient to extract a lot of flavour but almost zero bitterness.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The alpha solubility limit is significantly higher in plain water, compared to wort.

Enlighten me, what are the numbers?

During my raw beer experiments I often bittered four to five gallon batches with only three liters of hop tea with the equal amount of hops I would have used if I would have boiled them in the wort.

You're using 10 times as much water for the tea that I am. Assuming a 100 IBU solubility limit, you can achieve around 14 IBU with 3L tea for 5 gal.
The math is a straightforward blending calculation.

This is obviously an oversimplification, but my low volume teas have not added any noticable bitterness.

 

[Miraculix]

Enlighten me, what are the numbers?


You're using 10 times as much water for the tea that I am. Assuming a 100 IBU solubility limit, you can achieve around 14 IBU with 3L tea for 5 gal.
The math is a straightforward blending calculation.

This is obviously an oversimplification, but my low volume teas have not added any noticable bitterness.

I have no numbers, I have just experience. The 100 ibu rule of thumb definitely doesn't apply to plain water.

I even managed to overbitter my beer with my first attempt, as I thought I would need to add more hops, which I didn't need to. @Ninoid made similar experiences during raw ale tryouts.

Btw. 4 to 5 gallons is not ten times 3 litres.

Edit: sorry misread your post. Amazing that it works with such a low volume. Going to try our on my next batch!

 

[RPh_Guy]

4 to 5 gallons is not ten times 3 litres.

I use 300mL to make hop tea

 

[Miraculix]

I use 300mL to make hop tea

Yeah, sorry, misread that

I edited the above, but you were faster.

 

[Ninoid]

Bittering Hops in 15 minutes.
I not try this, but I believe that this works.

Due to problems with the electric heater in my brewing kettle one time I made a beer that brought the wort to boil and after that it stood for 30 minutes until it naturally cooled to 80'C. The bitterness was taste same than I having with normally boil for 20 minutes, as I had planned and that time when the electric heater stopped working.

 

[Miraculix]

I use 300mL to make hop tea

I have no French press but I thought that using a normal pot with a small hop bag should do the job as well.

So you use boiling water for the hop tea? Only 300ml for the whole 5g batch? How long do you let it soak?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have no French press but I thought that using a normal pot with a small hop bag should do the job as well.

So you use boiling water for the hop tea? Only 300ml for the whole 5g batch? How long do you let it soak?

I let it simmer for about 10 minutes and then chill in an ice bath.

 

[brewbama]

I have had some wallflower beers that were under hopped due to miscalculation by a loose screw between the chair and keyboard. In an effort to correct the hop charge I boiled water, poured it over an ounce of whole hops in a quart jar, let it sit an hour, poured off the hop tea, and added it to the beer. IMO whole hops are better for this because pellets produce a green sludgy tea vs a beautiful golden tea. In fact, I’ve moved to whole cone because of the green vs gold and sludge vs bracts.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I have had some wallflower beers that were under hopped due to miscalculation by a loose screw between the chair and keyboard. In an effort to correct the hop charge I boiled water, poured it over an ounce of whole hops in a quart jar, let it sit an hour, poured off the hop tea, and added it to the beer. IMO whole hops are better for this because pellets produce a green sludgy tea vs a beautiful golden tea. In fact, I’ve moved to whole cone because of the green vs gold and sludge vs bracts.

This is a very good point... Next time I try this out will be with whole hops. The coffee press does a good job on holding back particulate matter.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

"miscalculation by a loose screw between the chair and keyboard" that's good. I'll have to remember that one.

 

[homebrudoc]

I have thought about this for awhile.......

However with LOB you need to do things differently.

A) Dosing your hop tea/extract with Sodium Metabisulfate, Asorbic Acid and Brewtan-B.(Trifecta)

Trifecta Calculator
​

Schlenkerla (and everyone else), I'm going to momentarily hijack your thread. I'm trying to wrap my head around LoDO brewing. I've seen the reference to using the trifecta but also seen other references that only refer to using SMB. Which is the "correct" process for a guy that's interested but is not going to build a fully sealed system purged with nitrogen? Trifecta or just SMB? Feel free to PM, email or shoot me.

warmest regards
homebrudoc

 

[RPh_Guy]

Schlenkerla (and everyone else), I'm going to momentarily hijack your thread. I'm trying to wrap my head around LoDO brewing. I've seen the reference to using the trifecta but also seen other references that only refer to using SMB. Which is the "correct" process for a guy that's interested but is not going to build a fully sealed system purged with nitrogen? Trifecta or just SMB? Feel free to PM, email or shoot me.

warmest regards
homebrudoc

You might want to join the LOB forum on the mother site. Bryan uses nitrogen purging and has reduced his sulfite to zero. I'm not sure about BrewTan B /ascorbic acid.

 

[Schlenkerla]

You might want to join the LOB forum on the mother site. Bryan uses nitrogen purging and has reduced his sulfite to zero. I'm not sure about BrewTan B /ascorbic acid.

I don't think Brian uses either now. No trifecta. Just nitrogen and and sauergut (biological acidification). BTW - Good advice.

Schlenkerla (and everyone else), I'm going to momentarily hijack your thread. I'm trying to wrap my head around LoDO brewing. I've seen the reference to using the trifecta but also seen other references that only refer to using SMB. Which is the "correct" process for a guy that's interested but is not going to build a fully sealed system purged with nitrogen? Trifecta or just SMB? Feel free to PM, email or shoot me.

warmest regards
homebrudoc

Trifecta is LOB term I think it was coined in the mother forum.

I use trifecta. Mainly for the reason I get short term and long term protection.

Trifecta is replica of a commercial product. Name escapes me. It's mixed with a 25%, 25%, 50% blend of 1 through 3 below.

There's a spreadsheet for calculating the proper mix to protect a certain ppm protection in the forum. (Forgot I posted it in this thread)

Proper use of this really requires sulfite test strips or a DO meter so you know how to dose. There's a lot more to that subject than I can easily explain at a high level. There's whole bunch of threads just on dosing and expending sulfites.

Here's the trifecta:

1a) Sodium Metabisulfate - (SMB)

- Or -

1b) Potassium Metabisulfate - (KMB)

2) Asorbic Acid - (AA)

3) Brewtan-B - (BTB) formerly Tanal-B


SMB/KMB - provides long term oxidation protection.

Asorbic A - provides quick oxidative protection but requires a metabisulfates so at not to be left as a peroxide.

Brewtan - B - provides colloidal protection, from memory not sure how to explain it so I'm pasting from wyeast.

"Brewtan B (formerly called Tanal B) is a 100% natural, high molecular weight tannic acid extracted from renewable plant materials specifically for the brewing industry. Incorporating Brewtan B into your process will improve the shelf life and enhance the flavor and colloidal stability of your beer.

The gallotannins in Brewtan B react with wort proteins through adsorption and precipitation - the Brewtan B/protein complex is left in the spent grains when Brewtan B is added to the mash, or removed in the whirlpool when it is added to the boiler.

It is highly effective at coagulating and flocculating proline and –thiol –containing proteins, but does not interact with foam-positive proteins. This in turn inhibits downstream lipid and protein oxidation, improving flavor stability and shelf life."

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't think Brian uses either now.

I think you're right because he says his beer is R-bot compliant.

Brewtan - B

My understanding is that BtB helps to chelate metals that would otherwise catalyze staling (e.g. Fenton reactions).

I think the rest of what you quoted simply means that it facilitates hot/cold break formation, which is also a good thing since we want to remove the break material.

I take you have never used a French coffee press. Y/N?

Hah, just saw this and realized I never answered. No I haven't used a French press. Looks like a good idea though! I'll have to get one.

Thanks!

 

[Schlenkerla]

I think you're right because he says his beer is R-bot compliant.

My understanding is that BtB helps to chelate metals that would otherwise catalyze staling (e.g. Fenton reactions).

I think the rest of what you quoted simply means that it facilitates hot/cold break formation, which is also a good thing since we want to remove the break material.

Hah, just saw this and realized I never answered. No I haven't used a French press. Looks like a good idea though! I'll have to get one.

Thanks!

I forgot that.... Prolly the most important point. Copper chillers.... LoL.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Hah, just saw this and realized I never answered. No I haven't used a French press. Looks like a good idea though! I'll have to get one.

Thanks!

Yeah the coffee press is like a glass hopback but with a moving/removable falsetop.

The latter not to be confused with a girl who stuffs her bra with toilet paper before heading out to the bar.

 

[homebrudoc]

With all due respect, I didn't ask what Brian does. I'm a member of the LOB forum. I've read a fair bit about LOB. There are lots of pages of info in lots of different places.

I just read through the Helles paper and it only mentions SMB. Here on HBT and other places you read about the trifecta. I'm not buying or building a hermetically sealed brewing system complete with oompa loompas to brew for me. I asked a straightforward question for a guy looking to dive down the rabbit hole a little bit. Would I only use SMB (like the Helles paper) or use the trifecta as some described here? There isn't a tremendous difference in using "just SMB" vs the trifecta, just measuring a couple of more chemicals.

Warmest regards
homebru

 

[BeerFst]

Why even do this hot? Dry hopping is done at 68 tops (ideally). What’s the primary driver to dissolution of the oils into beer? pH? Abv? Granted I know almost nothing of LODO, but both are easily addressed by lactic or vodka, no?

 

[RPh_Guy]

With all due respect, I didn't ask what Brian does.

Sorry I misread your post. I thought you said you were building a nitrogen-purged system. My bad!

BrewTan B (Wyeast specs):
Mash: 0.26 g/gal added to strike water
Boil (if using copper, aluminum, or lower grade stainless): 0.16 g/gal at 5 minutes.

Sulfite:
Brewers dose sulfite by ppm of sodium metabisulfite.
20-30ppm is the recommended starting amount.

Ascorbic acid:
Equal to the amount of sodium metabisulfite.

All of these may require tuning based on your system.

Why even do this hot?

That's a good question.

Heating the water to a boil drives out all the oxygen. This means the hops don't oxidize during extraction and the tea doesn't add oxygen to the beer.

Furthermore, boiling the hops denatures the enzymes that may otherwise affect the FG. This helps spunding accuracy.

Cheers

 

[Schlenkerla]

With all due respect, I didn't ask what Brian does. I'm a member of the LOB forum. I've read a fair bit about LOB. There are lots of pages of info in lots of different places.

I just read through the Helles paper and it only mentions SMB. Here on HBT and other places you read about the trifecta. I'm not buying or building a hermetically sealed brewing system complete with oompa loompas to brew for me. I asked a straightforward question for a guy looking to dive down the rabbit hole a little bit. Would I only use SMB (like the Helles paper) or use the trifecta as some described here? There isn't a tremendous difference in using "just SMB" vs the trifecta, just measuring a couple of more chemicals.

Warmest regards
homebru

I'm confused. If you read all that on the LOB Forum and the Helles Paper. Now today you've formed an opinion that SMB is all that's needed. But then yesterday you came here asking about trifecta. I just tried to answer your question and share my knowledge. No judgement here just trying to share what I know and do.

As I said earlier I use the Trifecta. Use what to want in your beer.

Again this is "my understanding" with a touch more detail. Leave Brewtan-B out for discussions sake. (For the record I'm no chemist)

The addition of (SMB/KMB) sodium or potassium metabisulfates prevents oxygen from staying in a dissolved state that would degrade the malt flavor. - Long Term Protection - during, mash, pre boil and cool down. Only to be removed at/before pitching time.

The addition of (AA) Ascorbic Acid is a fast acting antioxidant. This prevents air and bubbles getting to the point of dissolved oxygen. Typical of transfer as a result of racking, syphoning, pumping, draining and to include splashing and air bubble burps. - Short Term and immediate protection.

The SMB/KMB and AA work as a tag team. AA acting on immediate oxygen exposure then metabisulfates removes the peroxide created by the ascorbic acid.

ANTIOXIN-SBT - I believe is the Marketed Trade Name. The formulation is the psuedo name "Trifecta" 45%-SMB /45%-AA /10%-BTNB

[Corrected % per @Die_Beerey 's comments below.]

Use SMB if you want. The rub is how much.

Truth be told to know what's really happening you need a meter. Otherwise your flying blind with amounts of dissolved oxygen and sulfites. You also need a milligram scale.

As for not asking what Brian does, you wouldn't be asking about this if Brian didn't trial test this over several years and publish all this information. Then people in sub forums start talking about different application methods. Don't take offense if people mention Brian Rabe in passing. @Die_Beerery. If you're seriously asking about LOB you should tolerate comments about what Brian's done or is doing now.

1 - It's like asking about a recipe about Sam Adam's Boston Lager and getting annoyed if somebody mentions James Koch.

2 - It's like asking about using a Randall on your keggerator and getting annoyed if somebody mentions Sam Calagione.

3 - It's like asking how to make your own gyro on rotisserie and getting annoyed if someone mentions Alton Brown.

4 - It's like asking about the invention of internet and getting annoyed if they mention Al Gore. - LoL.

5 - It's like asking about the proper use of condoms and getting annoyed if they mention Charles Goodyear. (See picture)

 

[Schlenkerla]

With all due respect, I didn't ask what Brian does. I'm a member of the LOB forum. I've read a fair bit about LOB. There are lots of pages of info in lots of different places.

I just read through the Helles paper and it only mentions SMB. Here on HBT and other places you read about the trifecta. I'm not buying or building a hermetically sealed brewing system complete with oompa loompas to brew for me. I asked a straightforward question for a guy looking to dive down the rabbit hole a little bit. Would I only use SMB (like the Helles paper) or use the trifecta as some described here? There isn't a tremendous difference in using "just SMB" vs the trifecta, just measuring a couple of more chemicals.

Warmest regards
homebru

FYI

Sodium Metabisulfate

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/sodium-metabisulfite-8-oz

Potassium Metabisulfate

https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/potassium-metabisulfite-25kg

Ascorbic Acid.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/ascorbic-acid.html

Brewtan B

https://wyeastlab.com/brewtan

 

[Die_Beerery]

Trifecta is based off a commercial hot side Antioxidant called antioxin SBT by AEB . It is specifically made for commercial brewery HSA mitigation. It is only available to professionals, so I got some. I then reverse engineered the formula for the community. It's 45/45/10 Kmeta, AA, and gallotannins. Thats a good place to start but the beauty of knowing the %'s is that unlike the commercial version, YOU can tailor the percentages you see fit.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Trifecta is based off a commercial hot side Antioxidant called antioxin SBT by AEB . It is specifically made for commercial brewery HSA mitigation. It is only available to professionals, so I got some. I then reverse engineered the formula for the community. It's 45/45/10 Kmeta, AA, and gallotannins. Thats a good place to start but the beauty of knowing the %'s is that unlike the commercial version, YOU can tailor the percentages you see fit.

Die_Beerey,

Thanks for the correction on the formulation. I use the spreadsheet that I got from Nate.

Its linked above for anybody just starting out. Post#1.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Soooo.... What's a good French press to buy?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Soooo.... What's a good French press to buy?

I have a Bodum. Pictured below. This link is from Walmart. This must be the new 2019 version. Mine is very similar.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bodum-Kenya-8-Cup-French-Press-Chrome-Coffee-Maker/186916462

 

[Big Monk]

Die_Beerey,

Thanks for the correction on the formulation. I use the spreadsheet that I got from Nate.

Its linked above for anybody just starting out. Post#1.

There's a big error in that sheet you posted. Someone fat fingered out the equation in D7 at some point so it doesn't calculate the required grams of metabisulfite.

Insert =($D$4*$D$8)/1000 into D7 and then re-distribute

 

[Die_Beerery]

A french press is not where you want to be...Yuck.

 

[RPh_Guy]

A french press is not where you want to be...Yuck.

Why not?
Any other ideas for a good way to make hop tea with minimal aeration?

I was looking at getting this one, which is all high-quality stainless.
https://www.amazon.com/Veken-Double-Wall-Stainless-Multi-Screen-Dishwasher/dp/B07PP5WFR3/

 

[Schlenkerla]

A french press is not where you want to be...Yuck.

Curious to your response.

Why not?
Any other ideas for a good way to make hop tea with minimal aeration?

I was looking at getting this one, which is all high-quality stainless.
https://www.amazon.com/Veken-Double-Wall-Stainless-Multi-Screen-Dishwasher/dp/B07PP5WFR3/

Since I concocted this idea I have used Cryo-hops as a late flame out addition. That's without even doing a whirlpool and it had a significant amount of hop flavor and aroma. Probably more than a dry hopping with standard C hops. (Cascade, Citra, Centennial, Columbus). The AAU is pretty high on these due the cryo process.

If you haven't tried Cryo-hops, do so. Check out the IBU.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/collections/cryo-hops

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I do believe the French press is better suited to whole hop cones than hop pellets. Others fine the same?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you haven't tried Cryo-hops, do so. Check out the IBU.

I'd still need to add them after fermentation ... I make a lot of sour beer.

I do believe the French press is better suited to whole hop cones than hop pellets. Others fine the same?

Have you tried it?

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'd still need to add them after fermentation ... I make a lot of sour beer.


Have you tried it?

I'm not sure how to dry hop short of Randall or Hopback, or a vessel transfer that doesn't involve pumping and/or gravity.

When your talking sour do you need low oxygen methods?