LHBS said bottle after a week?

[JeffStewart]

I asked the guy at the LHBS about a Brett. beer and he said bottle in a week or it'll sour and I want a second opinion.

I recently did a batch that started at 1.051 and after 8 days in primary fell to 1.012 using wyeast 1007 at 55F. Then I racked to a secondary and pitched Brett. B. and plan on letting it go for at least 6 months.

Now the guy at the LHBS thought that was crazy. What do you think?

 

[arg]

Do you not want it to sour?

Let it go for at least 6 months. It sounds like you know more about what you're doing than he does.

 

[Clann]

LHBS guy is probabily trying to be helpful but doesn't know any better.
Get your advice for brewing on HBT

 

[chapa]

lhbs guy is probabily trying to be helpful but doesn't know any better.
Get your advice for brewing on hbt

+1

 

[JeffStewart]

Thanks for the reassurance. I had always heard that Brett. should go at least 6 months, AT LEAST. But this is my first time using Brett. so I figured I'd check with people on this site after getting a different opinion from the LHBS guy.

thanks again.

 

[JeffStewart]

By the way, should I be concerned with any yeast cake produced in secondary?

 

[dcp27]

you're LHBS guy def doesnt know what he's talking about, unless he thought it was on accident. either way, brett doesnt make it sour.

dont worry about the yeast cake in the secondary

 

[smokinghole]

Brett can and will make it sour, it just needs O2 to do it.

 

[Vaughn]

You need Pedio or Lacto to make it sour. With Brett, all you will get is the funk.

Check out http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/ for more information.

 

[passedpawn]

you need pedio or lacto to make it sour. With brett, all you will get is the funk.

Check out http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/ for more information.

+1

 

[smokinghole]

Trust me in the presence of oxygen brettanomyces will produce acetic acid, I promise. In fact I don't recall what brewery does it but I heard a brewery barrel ages a beer and makes it sour through oxygen doses to the brett.

In fact here's a reference that talks about aerobic production of acetic acid. The paper is written on the sexual reproducing version of brett be the Dekkera yeasts but the metabolic pathways are the same to my knowledge. Not sure if you guys will be able to pull up the article since I'm using my school library but here's a quote "One of the best-studied features of D. bruxellensis is its acetic acid production during aerobic growth. Many studies
on the fermentation characteristics of D. bruxellensis have focused on that: for example, the influence of oxygen"

Blomqvist, J., Eberhard, T., Schnürer, J., & Passoth, V. (2010). Fermentation characteristics of Dekkera bruxellensis strains. Applied Microbiology & Biotechnology, 87(4), 1487-1497. doi:10.1007/s00253-010-2619-y

 

[dcp27]

true, but in normal circumstances a pellicle will form and limit the oxygen exposure, so it shouldnt be an issue unless its being dosed.

 

[JeffStewart]

I can't say definitively from experience, but from what I've read, Brett will produce some acid in the presence of O2, but I would think it would be fairly degligible unless you started pumping it in.

 

[smokinghole]

Look I'm just saying it can do it, I'm not saying it is an ideal method. All I did was correct the statement that you NEED pedio/lacto to sour a wort which is not true. I hear people talking about too much acetic acid development in their flanders worts all the time. Unless bottle dredges they add contain acetobacter, they are getting the acid development from aerobic activity of brett strains. So whether a pellicle is there or not O2 diffuses into the wort. Also you have to remember the pellicle IS the yeast, it's not just a lifeless membrane. That means that brett is in contact with the oxygen. In a barrel the microoxygenation through the wood is what allows brett only beers to develop some acidity. It's not a huge producer but if given enough oxygen with enough sugars left to comsume you could probably make a wort just as sour. The problem would be that it is more harsh since it's not the smoother lactic acid made by pedio/lacto.

 

[passedpawn]

Look I'm just saying it can do it, I'm not saying it is an ideal method. All I did was correct the statement that you NEED pedio/lacto to sour a wort which is not true. I hear people talking about too much acetic acid development in their flanders worts all the time. Unless bottle dredges they add contain acetobacter, they are getting the acid development from aerobic activity of brett strains. So whether a pellicle is there or not O2 diffuses into the wort. Also you have to remember the pellicle IS the yeast, it's not just a lifeless membrane. That means that brett is in contact with the oxygen. In a barrel the microoxygenation through the wood is what allows brett only beers to develop some acidity. It's not a huge producer but if given enough oxygen with enough sugars left to comsume you could probably make a wort just as sour. The problem would be that it is more harsh since it's not the smoother lactic acid made by pedio/lacto.

Hmmm, that might explain the tart in my Flanders Red Batch #1. But there are also lacto, pedio, and various yeasts in there, I have no idea where the flavors are coming from in that blend.

Thanks for clarifying your statements. Very illuminating.

 

[smokinghole]

Well from the reading and research I've done there are some Saccharomyces yeasts that can produce small amounts of acetic acid but most often that is associated with Brettanomyces yeasts and Dekkera yeasts. So if you kept opening the fermentor or keg to sample you kept introducing fresh supplies of oxygen. Which could have contributed to increased production of acetic acid.

 

[Homercidal]

So I can make a brett beer that isn't sour?? Might have to look into that!

 

[Vaughn]

When I said you need Lacto/Pedio to get sourness, I was referring to a sour level you would get from commercial examples. Yes, Brett can produce acetic acid. The amount is still very tiny compared to what most people seek in a "sour" beer.

 

[ryane]

When I said you need Lacto/Pedio to get sourness, I was referring to a sour level you would get from commercial examples. Yes, Brett can produce acetic acid. The amount is still very tiny compared to what most people seek in a "sour" beer.

I agree with this, while technically in a lab brett can produce a good amount of acetic acid, when the rubber hits the road it doesnt really do much in a beer, sure it has have a hint of tartness but not much else

 

[boostsr20]

Thanks for the reassurance. I had always heard that Brett. should go at least 6 months, AT LEAST. But this is my first time using Brett. so I figured I'd check with people on this site after getting a different opinion from the LHBS guy.

thanks again.

It takes roughly 3 months for Brett/Lacto to take care of the dextrins left from Sacc yeast. After 3 months you will get a lot of maturation and changes in flavor aroma. Its most common for people to preach the "at least 6 months" but its not absolutely necessary. I have a brett Saison that I've given bottles to Pro brewers who deal with brett on a daily basis say that its aromatic qualities were perfect and that was bottled right at 3 months.

I also agree with what smokinghole stated on sourness from Brett. I did a flanders with brett L and introduced O2 intermittently and its the most sour beer I've made to date. It does however, have a slight aroma of vinegar. That aroma is fading now after 3 months in bottles.