LHBS did not carry the required hops

[Erythro73]

Hi!
I was planning to do a 2.5 gallons batch of Jamil's amber ale (from Brewing Classic Styles). However, my LHBS (which is quite small, but have a good turnaround) didn't carry any of the required hops.

The official recipe required:
Horizon @ 60 min
Centennial & Cascade @ 10 min
Centennial & Cascade @ 0 min

But he gave me Citra (instead of Horizon), Amarillo (instead of Centennial) and Simcoe (instead of Cascade).

So, what would be the most appropriate schedule for these hops? Which of those three should I use for bittering purpose? And which ones should @ 10 min and @ 0 min? I'm under the impression that using Citra solely for bittering purpose is kind of a crime.

Thank you!

 

[LLBeanJ]

How much of each do you have and what are the AA%s?

I think I would use the Amarillo for 60m & the Citra and Simco for the late additions.

 

[Joe9216]

i dont know why they would have subb'd citra for horizon, they are nothing alike. magnum would have been a better sub. amarillo is a good sub for the centennial or the cascade, and simcoe is the same. depending on your batches AA% your IBU's should be roughly 10 points higher if using the same schedule for the subs they gave you (the simcoe throws it off a bit). citra is roughly a 11-13%, amarillo 8-11%, simcoe 15-20%. while horizon is 11-13%, cascade 4-7%, and centennial 9-12%. it depends on how bitter you want to take it.

 

[Erythro73]

How much of each do you have and what are the AA%s?

I think I would use the Amarillo for 60m & the Citra and Simco for the late additions.

Will, I'm looking for an amber around 35 IBUs. I'm aiming for a good balance between maltiness and hoppiness... but it could lean a bit more on the hoppy side. I'm not looking for a hop bomb. The recipe required around 0.25 oz of each @ 2.5 gallons.

LHBS seels them by the ounces. So I got 1 oz of Citra (13.7 AAU), 1 oz of Amarillo (10,4 AAU) and 1 oz of Simcoe (AAU), which is quite enough to do anything. I'm probably gonna give the remainder to a colleague.

I would've guess Citra & Amarillo have a similar taste profile whereas Simcoe is different. I had in mind Simcoe for bittering and Citra&Amarillo for late additions, but I'm not quite sure. Maybe Citra & Amarillo are too similar to be used together?

 

[Erythro73]

i dont know why they would have subb'd citra for horizon, they are nothing alike. magnum would have been a better sub. amarillo is a good sub for the centennial or the cascade, and simcoe is the same. depending on your batches AA% your IBU's should be roughly 10 points higher if using the same schedule for the subs they gave you (the simcoe throws it off a bit). citra is roughly a 11-13%, amarillo 8-11%, simcoe 15-20%. while horizon is 11-13%, cascade 4-7%, and centennial 9-12%. it depends on how bitter you want to take it.

Can I just lower the amount (oz) I put in?

I don't think he had Magnum. It's quite a small store.

 

[Joe9216]

citra and amarillo actually go well together, the citra is similar, but does not have the floral notes of the amarillo. together they produce a nice tropical and citrus with a hint of the floral.

 

[Joe9216]

you doing an extract or ag version?

 

[Erythro73]

you doing an extract or ag version?

It will be my first AG (BIAB).

 

[LLBeanJ]

I think of Amarillo as a great all around hop for both early and late additions. I prefer to use Simcoe and Citra for late additions as they are great flavor and aroma hops and it just seems like a waste of hops to use them for bittering.

With that said, I do agree with Joe that the subs they gave you aren't all that great. I think if you are trying to best replicate Jamil's recipe with what you have, maybe go 100% Amarillo. Amarillo is similar to both Centennial and Cascade and will give you a similar flavor and aroma. The bittering is less important, so just use Amarillo for that too.

Sooo,

.28 oz Amarillo @ 60
.15 oz Amarillo @ 10
.15 oz Amarillo @ 0

If you want to use the other hops, maybe add the Citra in for the late additions. Drop the Amarillo down to .05 and add in .07 oz Citra @ both 10 & 0 minutes. The Simcoe doesn't really fit, IMO, so I'd save it for something else.

 

[Erythro73]

I think of Amarillo as a great all around hop for both early and late additions. I prefer to use Simcoe and Citra for late additions as they are great flavor and aroma hops and it just seems like a waste of hops to use them for bittering.

With that said, I do agree with Joe that the subs they gave you aren't all that great. I think if you are trying to best replicate Jamil's recipe with what you have, maybe go 100% Amarillo. Amarillo is similar to both Centennial and Cascade and will give you a similar flavor and aroma. The bittering is less important, so just use Amarillo for that too.

Sooo,

.28 oz Amarillo @ 60
.15 oz Amarillo @ 10
.15 oz Amarillo @ 0

If you want to use the other hops, maybe add the Citra in for the late additions. Drop the Amarillo down to .05 and add in .07 oz Citra @ both 10 & 0 minutes. The Simcoe doesn't really fit, IMO, so I'd save it for something else.

To be fair, I don't necessarily want/need to be as close to JZ's recipe as possible. In the end, I see it more as a guideline than a rulebook, and I want to make the best beer possible with what I have (while still making an amber).

Edit : So I guess I'll be making a mix of Amarillo and Citra.

 

[Joe9216]

the simcoe will still work with it, it will just add in a bit of earthiness to the profile. I just plugged it into beersmith, and depending on your efficiancy and equipment you will be close just using .25 of each at .25 simcoe 60m, .25 amarillo/citra 10m, .25 amarillo/citra 0m. it will yield you around a 33-37 IBU, and prob the best flavor/aroma as some of the earthiness of the simcoe will boil off and or be covered by the citra's powerful profile. or sub in amarillo as bittering hop at 60 and have a less bitter beer at around 25-30ibu

 

[LLBeanJ]

the simcoe will still work with it, it will just add in a bit of earthiness to the profile.

And pine resin. It's a great flavor when it's desired.

Did you figure those numbers based on a 2.5 gallon batch, per the OP? Those quantities look like they are about 2x to end up at 35-ish IBUs. Also, in BCS, Jamil's recipes are based on the Rager formula for IBUs, which will require less hops to arrive at the stated IBUs than if figured with the more commonly (I believe) used Tinseth formula.

 

[Joe9216]

i did 2.5g BIAB, with 65%effic, full boil in a 5g pot, using tensith. did not know jamil used rager.

 

[Erythro73]

And pine resin. It's a great flavor when it's desired.

Did you figure those numbers based on a 2.5 gallon batch, per the OP? Those quantities look like they are about 2x to end up at 35-ish IBUs. Also, in BCS, Jamil's recipes are based on the Rager formula for IBUs, which will require less hops to arrive at the stated IBUs than if figured with the more commonly (I believe) used Tinseth formula.

No worries about that, I use Beersmith anyway to put the right amount while keeping the proportions you guys gave.

Man, this LHBS store really likes to sub things... https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/caramunich-instead-dark-wheat-malt-487467/

 

[LLBeanJ]

i did 2.5g BIAB, with 65%effic, full boil in a 5g pot, using tensith. did not know jamil used rager.

That makes sense. I'm coming up with ~47 IBUs with your hop schedule, which, by the way, sounds pretty tasty to me, but I likes me some hops.

 

[Erythro73]

Yeah, I really love hops and I often need my hop fix, but I like to think about my in-laws who like craft beers, but not overly hoppy ones (father-in-law liked Arrogant Bastard, which isn't only a hop bomb, but wouldn't like Heady Topper or any hardcore IPAs). So I'm trying to reach a good compromise making a hoppy beer (for me) but without sacrificing a good malty backbone. So I guessed an amber ale at around 35 IBUs should do the trick.

 

[Joe9216]

this is what i had set and ended up with, it does sound pretty tasty though.

 

[Joe9216]

might even pump up the munich to 8 oz to add a little more malty sweetness

 

[Erythro73]

this is what i had set and ended up with it does sound pretty tasty though.

That's weird, even with Tinseth formula, I'm reaching 42-43 IBUs...?!

 

[LLBeanJ]

That's weird, even with Tinseth formula, I'm reaching 42-43 IBUs...?!

That looks right. I just looked back over my numbers and my bittering addition was set to FWH, so that was adding a few more IBUs. Ooopsie!

Here's what I came up with (note, I upped the 60m addition a smidge due to the FWH error)...

 

[Joe9216]

no idea why mine is getting a much smaller range than yall are....interesting

 

[Joe9216]

unless its just in the equiptment utilization/efficiancy

 

[Erythro73]

So, how does that look? (I had to put in a higher volume than 2.5 gallons, because they gave me a little bit more malt as they rounded up).

http://i.imgur.com/V2ugH5b.png

(Oops, forgot to turn off the adjust temp for equipment).

(Note, the weird values of oz is because of conversion from grams to oz).

 

[JayDubWill]

Half the fun with this hobby is experimentation. All three of those hops are great and you really can't go wrong with them, however you use them. The piny herbal flavor of the simcoe would be a nice counterpoint to the citrus heavy amarillo and citra. I downloaded Jamil's Amber Ale into Beersmith and the original IBU's were around 35. Swapping out the hops with the ones your have and keeping the timing and IBU's the same, this is what I came up with for a 2.5 gal batch. You might need a jeweler's scale. Measuring tenths/hundredths of an ounce is difficult on a kitchen scale.

Estimated IBU: 35.0 IBUs
0.150 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 15.6 IBUs

0.200 oz Amarillo Gold [10.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.0 IBUs
0.160 oz Citra [13.70 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.4 IBUs

0.200 oz Amarillo Gold [10.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min 3.0 IBUs
0.200 oz Citra [13.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min 4.0 IBUs

Alternatively, I would recommend something along these lines. I think the simcoe will really add a nice dimension.

0.150 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 15.6 IBUs

0.200 oz Amarillo Gold [10.40 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.0 IBUs
0.200 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min 7.5 IBUs
0.160 oz Citra [13.70 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.4 IBUs

0.200 oz Amarillo Gold [10.40 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 3.0 IBUs
0.200 oz Citra [13.70 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 4.0 IBUs
0.200 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 3.8 IBUs

*Note the last hop addition says steep/whirlpool 10.0 min. This means at knockout add the hops and stir (whirlpool) for 10 min before cooling. Hope this helps. Cheers!

 

[Erythro73]

No worries about measuring, I can borrow a scale with 0.1 g precision.

 

[Joe9216]

i agree with jaydub and get rid of all those decimal points. I always try to keep things in quarters .25/.5/.75 just for ease of measuring and repeatablility.

 

[Erythro73]

i agree with jaydub and get rid of all those decimal points. I always try to keep things in quarters .25/.5/.75 just for ease of measuring and repeatablility.

Yeah, but my scale is in grams... Which is more precise (0.1 g = 0.003 oz).

 

[LLBeanJ]

So, how does that look?

Looks good. I think it will be a nice brew.

 

[Joe9216]

id go with it then. it looks like a sound recipe. let everyone know how it turns out.

 

[Erythro73]

Thank you, LLBeanJ, Joe9216 and JayDub! It is very much appreciated!

 

[Joe9216]

no problem, I always find these discussions fun and informative.

 

[Erythro73]

As a last question, would it be better do as Jaydub suggested and whirlpooling at the end instead of... well... doing nothing? Will it impact the aromas?

 

[Joe9216]

whirlpooling your flameout hops adds more aroma than just steeping.

 

[Erythro73]

whirlpooling your flameout hops adds more aroma than just steeping.

So whirlpooling it is!

 

[Joe9216]

here is one good write-up that i have saved about whirlpooling. it really got me into doing it on all my hoppy beers that were not going to be dry hopped.

http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/07/the-benefits-of-hop-stand-whirlpool.html