Lets talk water that won't register a PH

[sleev-les]

Like the title says. I use bottled water from Safeway. It is their brand spring water. It will not ever read a PH. Ive tried strips and a digital meter. Tried those both on my faucet and I get a PH reading just fine. I don't understand why the spring water has no PH. Can anyone shed light on this one?

 

[doug293cz]

The bigger question is why are you interested in knowing the pH of the water. The pH of the starting water is irrelevant for mashing. It is the alkalinity of the water, along with the grains, and water additions (salts & acid) that will determine the mash pH, which is the pH that is important.

Brew on

 

[sleev-les]

I'm getting bad readings all around and when I tried to test the water seperately it wouldn't budge the strip or meter. I added Gypsum and nothing. CaCl and nothing. Just found it odd that when spring water is introduced I can't get a reading. From the tap I can.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

The pH of water is approximated at being around 7 and is said to be "neutral" ... this does not mean that it does not have pH, it means that the pH is neither basic/alkaline nor acidic.
(and water will eventually drop to the 5's as CO2 dissolves into it from the atmosphere.)
You are not likely getting a pH of "0" ... that would be acidic in the range of hydrochloric acid.

ph meters have a shelf life of only a few years max (some probes are quoted at 1 year shelf life for accuracy).

You could try recalibrating your meter using buffer solutions.
You could also try refreshing the sensor ... using sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid etc. Pain in the butt.
Lots of info on using/maintaining a meter ...
https://www.hamiltoncompany.com/process-analytics/ph-and-orp-knowledge
As far as the test strips ... for whatever reason, manufacturers make the litmus paper naturally yellow'ish in color ... that usually corresponds to something around "neutral" on the color chart or a bit more acidic. I suspect you are seeing a pH test result that happens to be near the natural color of the test tape.

 

[marc1]

I'm getting bad readings all around and when I tried to test the water seperately it wouldn't budge the strip or meter. I added Gypsum and nothing. CaCl and nothing. Just found it odd that when spring water is introduced I can't get a reading. From the tap I can.

Gypsum and calcium chloride change mash pH some, not water pH.

 

[marc1]

Try testing your calibration buffers. If it doesn't measure those after calibration, your meter is broken.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Sounds like your meter or your probe is bad.

 

[sleev-les]

Sounds like your meter or your probe is bad.

the test strips are also not reading. That's why I was a bit confused. And its only in bottled spring water. I did try it in the mash later and still got nothing. I ran it in the sink faucet and got readings. Just baffling.

 

[balrog]

You really need to use buffer/calibration liquids. That'll be the only way to tell if the probe can even be used.

 

[sleev-les]

You really need to use buffer/calibration liquids. That'll be the only way to tell if the probe can even be used.

You really need to use buffer/calibration liquids. That'll be the only way to tell if the probe can even be u

Oops. Realize I didn't mention I calibrated in the solutions the meter came with. Now, it is a basic Amazon meter so it could be junk.

 

[marc1]

the test strips are also not reading. That's why I was a bit confused. And its only in bottled spring water. I did try it in the mash later and still got nothing. I ran it in the sink faucet and got readings. Just baffling.

pH meters can have trouble reading pure water. pH strips are not great for wort.

Again, what does the meter read in your calibration buffers?

What meter do you have?

 

[sleev-les]

pH meters can have trouble reading pure water. pH strips are not great for wort.

Again, what does the meter read in your calibration buffers?

What meter do you have?

It's just this one from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Hydroponics-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
I have not rechecked in buffers after the initial calibration so I could definitely have an issue. I have to order more so I can recheck. Most likely that will be my final tell. I didn't realize those meters can have harder time reading in plain water which also is a lesson learned since I was always checking water prior to wort. Still learning for sure. The info you guys are giving me is educational and seeing where I'm most likely going wrong or overthinking the situation. I'll order some of the buffers and check the meter and not delve into plain water and only focus on the wort for true numbers.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Ugh. Good luck with a low end cheapie pH "pen." Some low cost meters, like TDS meters are typically ok. That's not the case with pH meters.

https://www.buckeyehydro.com/mw102-pro-ph-temp-meter/

 

[marc1]

It's just this one from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Hydroponics-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
I have not rechecked in buffers after the initial calibration so I could definitely have an issue. I have to order more so I can recheck. Most likely that will be my final tell. I didn't realize those meters can have harder time reading in plain water which also is a lesson learned since I was always checking water prior to wort. Still learning for sure. The info you guys are giving me is educational and seeing where I'm most likely going wrong or overthinking the situation. I'll order some of the buffers and check the meter and not delve into plain water and only focus on the wort for true numbers.

With a good pH meter you would generally calibrate it before use each day.

That meter does not inspire confidence.

I have this one and it works well:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOIQE
The Milwaukee linked above is well regarded.

Regardless, the pH strips should work in water. What strips do you have?

 

[sleev-les]

With a good pH meter you would generally calibrate it before use each day.

That meter does not inspire confidence.

I have this one and it works well:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ENFOIQE
The Milwaukee linked above is well regarded.

Regardless, the pH strips should work in water. What strips do you have?

Just the Brewers Best PH strips. They work in the faucet water, but will not read in Spring bottled water. They stay the light yellow base color with is lighter than the mid 4's listed on the color chart.

I am going to look at a better digital since I have been trying to get better with improving my water strategy and profile. I'll def be sure to recalibrate each use.

 

[hotbeer]

Might be your water is at or past the starting limit of your test strips.

What is their range?

 

[sleev-les]

Might be your water is at or past the starting limit of your test strips.

What is their range?

Low 4's to 10's maybe? It was an ok range.

 

[hotbeer]

I'm thinking it's very possible your bottled water you can't test is at or below the lower limit of your test strips. So it's on the acidic side.

If the range of your strips is 4ish to almost 10 then I'd look for some with a narrower range to use for checking wort ph. 4ish to 6 or 7 will be more than enough range. Typically most beers are looking for a wort ph around 5.4 when mashing and sparging.

I'd just assume your bottled water is good and check the wort you make with it. But narrow ranging strips will give a more accurate estimate. Or just get a good ph meter.

Many bottled waters will tell you what website to go to where you can find a more detailed analysis. Also look for a source on the bottle label. Many brands have multiple sources so there'll be multiple analysis's available.

 

[sleev-les]

I thinki I'm going to opt for a good digital meter just for peace of mind. Thank you.

 

[hotbeer]

I thinki I'm going to opt for a good digital meter just for peace of mind. Thank you.

I haven't been inclined to want one. Have you seen all the users of them that post about theirs not working well or reading correctly?

I say there are as many or more of those type threads as there are threads with questions about ph strips.

Not wanting to pick a fight with the ph meter users though. I seldom test for ph of my wort since it's generally the same every time I do test every great once in awhile.

 

[sleev-les]

I haven't been inclined to want one. Have you seen all the users of them that post about theirs not working well or reading correctly?

I say there are as many or more of those type threads as there are threads with questions about ph strips.

Not wanting to pick a fight with the ph meter users though. I seldom test for ph of my wort since it's generally the same every time I do test every great once in awhile.

Yea in the end I have to figure out how deep I want to go. I only ever add gypsum or CaCl to my water. Water is the same every time I brew and beer turns out pretty good so if I beat out my OCD I really could do without.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

the test strips are also not reading. That's why I was a bit confused. And its only in bottled spring water. I did try it in the mash later and still got nothing. I ran it in the sink faucet and got readings. Just baffling.

"not reading" as in, the struos seem to stay the same color they naturally had prior to use (and, are using that style of yellow'ish litmus paper test strip?) ...
or do you mean that the the color result of the test strips specifically show a very, very low pH ((high acid)... ie. "near zero or pH 1.0 " ??

 

[sleev-les]

"not reading" as in, the struos seem to stay the same color they naturally had prior to use (and, are using that style of yellow'ish litmus paper test strip?) ...
or do you mean that the the color result of the test strips specifically show a very, very low pH ((high acid)... ie. "near zero or pH 1.0 " ??

They don't change color. Stay the same base yellow they are when taken out of the container.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

As in my earlier post (above), the litmus paper type test strips can give a somewhat confusing yellow-ish reading that, per the chart, simply means a "neutral" pH ... which is what you'd expect out of water.

While I've had both the litmus paper type test strips, and the version that uses a chemical tip, go bad over time, and occasionally I've managed to buy stock at a LBS that was already old or defective. ... still, I would chalk up your yellow result to the pH range indicated on the included chart.

As far as your meter ... like in my earlier post ... probes go bad ... if over a couple years old - I'd replace.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[sleev-les]

As in my earlier post (above), the litmus paper type test strips can give a somewhat confusing yellow-ish reading that, per the chart, simply means a "neutral" pH ... which is what you'd expect out of water.

While I've had both the litmus paper type test strips, and the version that uses a chemical tip, go bad over time, and occasionally I've managed to buy stock at a LBS that was already old or defective. ... still, I would chalk up your yellow result to the pH range indicated on the included chart.

As far as your meter ... like in my earlier post ... probes go bad ... if over a couple years old - I'd replace.
Just my 2 cents.

For sure. I'm going to weight whether or not to just get a more reliable probe, vs the Amazon cheapy I have.

 

[hotbeer]

Or just brew with your water and see if there is anything in the resulting beer that might indicate you need to address something in your water. If the beer tastes good to you and your friends, then what more do you need?

Though if you are going to competitions with your beer, then you might should invest and learn much about water chemistry and how it affects the resulting beer.

As for your strips not changing color, just assume your water is on that lower end of the scale. But again, what your water starts out as might not be what your wort will be at. Your wort pH is what matters.

Can you cheaply get some test strips with a lower range? But if you prefer get a meter. Or do as i do and don't worry if your resulting beer exhibits nothing that water chemistry will cause or fix.

 

[Kickass]

Personally, I don’t use a ph meter so take this at face value. From all the reading I’ve done, they’re more expensive and require more attention than they’re worth. Test strips, I’ve used. They’re complete trash. Use them as fire kindling.

It’s been said already but is worth repeating. Ph alone is absolutely worthless when evaluating your water. You’re on a fools errand to begin if you’re only concerned with ph.