Let's talk bock

[maltMonkey]

I'm brewing up a bock this weekend and just wanted to get some feedback and ask a couple questions. First, here's the recipe I've come up with:



Recipe: Bock
Style: Traditional Bock
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 9.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.068 SG
Estimated Color: 17.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 26.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 92.00 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.54 %
8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Dark (9.0 SRM) Grain 3.54 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (338.0 SRM) Grain 0.92 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 21.3 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] (30 min) Hops 5.5 IBU
1.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 14.13 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 17.66 qt of water at 165.9 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 9.89 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F



Questions:

-- I'm using 100% Munich for my base malt. I know it will self convert, but do I need to extend my mash time?

-- Decoction is the "preferred" method for this style but to be honest I don't really want to mess with it and I'm not 100% convinced it will alter the flavor profile enough to be worth it. Anyone done side by side experiments with infusion vs. decoction and noticed any differences?

-- How long should I lager, and how long do you think it will need to age before it's in its prime?

Any comments/critiques on the recipe are welcome as well.

 

[TexLaw]

Don't worry about the Munich. It will convert. As far as extending your mash, get some iodine and check for conversion. It's done when it's done, and you really do not want it to go too long, or you will lose important mouthfeel.

If you want a truly traditional bock, drop the chocolate and dark wheat and go with a quarter pound or so of melanoidin malt (especially if you do not want to decoct it). If, on the other hand, you want to break a bit from tradition, I think the chocolate and dark wheat could make an interesting beer. I really do not know that you need anything beyond the Munich, though, if you are going with all Munich for the base grain. Just about every bock recipe I've ever seen has a healthy dose of pilsner malt in it, so you already are getting a bit heavy on the melanoidins for a bock.

I would also keep that crystal around 60L. Caramel, even darker caramel notes are fine in a bock (as long as they do not get too heavy), but raisin, prune, plum, or grape notes are out of place there. The recipe you have right now almost reads like a Bock/Baltic Porter/Belgian Strong Dark hybrid (which actually sounds very tasty, but not if you want a Bock).

I also like the WLP830 or WLP833 for bocks, too. I like that Bohemian yeast, but it really doesn't get rich enough for a good bock. I made one with the WLP838 recently, and even that did not quite hit the mark, although it's coming around. I've really liked the bocks I've sampled and that were fermented with the 833, and I think I will go with that for my bocks in the future.

For lagering, you are pushing the upper range for bocks, so you can expect it will take a good amount of time for it to come around. I guess at least three months and probably closer to six before this beer really starts to show its stuff. It may take 8-12 months to peak. Every beer is different, so it's impossible to tell until it gets there. Personally, I would not even think of trying this before three months lagering have passed, and I would not expect great things even then.


TL

 

[maltMonkey]

As far as extending your mash, get some iodine and check for conversion. It's done when it's done, and you really do not want it to go too long, or you will lose important mouthfeel.

Man, I can't find iodine anywhere--I've been told it's used for making meth and the FDA is regulating the sale of it. Guess I need to look around online.

If you want a truly traditional bock, drop the chocolate and dark wheat and go with a quarter pound or so of melanoidin malt (especially if you do not want to decoct it). If, on the other hand, you want to break a bit from tradition, I think the chocolate and dark wheat could make an interesting beer.I really do not know that you need anything beyond the Munich, though, if you are going with all Munich for the base grain. Just about every bock recipe I've ever seen has a healthy dose of pilsner malt in it, so you already are getting a bit heavy on the melanoidins for a bock.

I would like something fairly traditional--I was reading that wheat has been used historical for up to a third of the grain bill., and the idea with the dark wheat was just to add some head retention without lightning the color.

My idea as far as melanoidins are concerned is that the mostly Munich malt bill + 90 min boil would really get this rich and melanoidiny (if that's a word). That and I don't have any melanoidin malt on hand at the moment.

I would also keep that crystal around 60L. Caramel, even darker caramel notes are fine in a bock (as long as they do not get too heavy), but raisin, prune, plum, or grape notes are out of place there. The recipe you have right now almost reads like a Bock/Baltic Porter/Belgian Strong Dark hybrid (which actually sounds very tasty, but not if you want a Bock).

Changing it now.

I also like the WLP830 or WLP833 for bocks, too. I like that Bohemian yeast, but it really doesn't get rich enough for a good bock. I made one with the WLP838 recently, and even that did not quite hit the mark, although it's coming around. I've really liked the bocks I've sampled and that were fermented with the 833, and I think I will go with that for my bocks in the future.

I really wanted to use the WLP820 that I recently used for an Oktoberfest, but I've been working up a big starter for the 2124 because I wanted to make a Vienna lager this weekend....well, after having a bock at a brewpub this weekend I was reminded how much I love this style and so I'm kind of throwing this together last minute. Incidently, I believe the WLP830 you mentioned is the same yeast as the 2124.

I think I'll take your suggestion and order the WLP833. This thing is not going to be drinkable for awhile (as you mention) so no point rushing it when I don't have everything I need to make this as good as possible.

For lagering, you are pushing the upper range for bocks, so you can expect it will take a good amount of time for it to come around. I guess at least three months and probably closer to six before this beer really starts to show its stuff. It may take 8-12 months to peak. Every beer is different, so it's impossible to tell until it gets there. Personally, I would not even think of trying this before three months lagering have passed, and I would not expect great things even then.

Do you think 45 days is long enough for the bulk lagering period (before bottling)?

I appreciate your help as always!

 

[TexLaw]

Just real quick:

You can use iodophor, if you can't find tincture of iodine. I hadn't heard about the meth, but now I know why Wal-Mart dropped the iodine.

If WY2124 and WL830 are the same yeast, just call it an old man brain fart and move along. I really do like that 833, though, and I bet you will find it worth the extra wait to get it.

On the melanoidins, like I said, I think that Munich does get you started on the heavy end, as it is. A 90 minute boil will probably add more color than flavor, since much of that boil is not very concentrated (i.e., there are different types of melanoidins, and they formed in different ways and do different things to your beer). In any case, I was just throwing out some suggestions for fine tuning. The best way to do that, though, is to brew something and tweak from there.

On the wheat, seriously, go nuts. If I were to detect any note of wheat in a "Bock," though, I would immediately think "Weizenbock," which is not the same thing. Hell, it's your beer, and I think a bunch of wheat could be pretty good. I just hesitate to call it a "Bock." If you want your head retention, consider a protein rest. Munich malt might like that sort of rest.

On the bottling time, I really cannot help you there. I've only kegged lagers. Maybe someone else can chime in a help out there.


TL

 

[maltMonkey]

Thanks TexLaw. I just noticed that the 833 is supposed to be an Ayinger strain and I LOVE their beers.

I'm kind of getting excited about this bock now

 

[maltMonkey]

If you want your head retention, consider a protein rest. Munich malt might like that sort of rest.

Would a step mash accomplish that as well as a decoction? I've never done either, but I do have a HERMS and I could do a 30 min rest @ 122° then recirculate until I'm up to 154°.

 

[jdoiv]

yeah, you could do a step mash for the protein and skip the decoction. I've done several beers lately with protein, beta and alpha rests using direct fired MLT for the steps. Works great, but watch the amount of time you spend at each phase as it will change the profile of the beer.

 

[maltMonkey]

yeah, you could do a step mash for the protein and skip the decoction. I've done several beers lately with protein, beta and alpha rests using direct fired MLT for the steps. Works great, but watch the amount of time you spend at each phase as it will change the profile of the beer.

Cool.

The numbers Beersmith is giving me for the mash steps are 122° for 30 mins, then heat to 154° over 15 minutes. I know I can achieve that well within the 15 minute window with my current setup, so I'll give this a shot.

 

[maltMonkey]

Hmmm....now I'm reading this and it sounds like the protein rest would have the opposite effect

 

[maltMonkey]

OK, after reading the John Palmer link above and hearing Jamil say on one of his shows that he didn't think a decoction made much of a difference, I'm sticking with the single infusion mash. I ordered the yeast today, and here is the revised recipe:



Recipe: Bock
Style: Traditional Bock
TYPE: All Grain


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 9.50 gal
Estimated OG: 1.069 SG
Estimated Color: 19.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 23.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 79.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
13 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 91.23 %
8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3.51 %
8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Dark (9.0 SRM) Grain 3.51 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (338.0 SRM) Grain 1.33 %
1.0 oz Carafa III (525.0 SRM) Grain 0.42 %
1.50 oz Hallertauer [4.60 %] (60 min) Hops 20.3 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [1.50 %] (30 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
1.20 tbsp PH 5.2 Stabilizer (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs German Bock Lager (White Labs #WLP833) Yeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 14.25 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 17.81 qt of water at 167.8 F 154.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 9.98 qt of water at 197.4 F 168.0 F

 

[jdoiv]

One of the tips on Jamil's show on Schwarzbier is to grind the Carafa III in a coffee or spice grinder. Since it has been dehusked, you don't need to worry about tannins and you'll get the most color effect from pulverizing it. I did it with my schwarzbier and it worked well. I didn't do it in my bock though since I brewed it before I heard the tip.

 

[maltMonkey]

One of the tips on Jamil's show on Schwarzbier is to grind the Carafa III in a coffee or spice grinder. Since it has been dehusked, you don't need to worry about tannins and you'll get the most color effect from pulverizing it. I did it with my schwarzbier and it worked well. I didn't do it in my bock though since I brewed it before I heard the tip.

I haven't listened to that episode but I heard him say on another one that he would do the same thing with chocolate malt and just sprinkle it on top of the mash during the last few minutes.

I will give that tip a try with this batch.

 

[Rudeboy]

Another Jamil tip would be to pitch about 4 vials of yeast or make about a 4 litre starter.

Personally I think he over does the pitching rates but this beer will require multiple vials or a really good healthy starter.

Rudeboy

 

[maltMonkey]

Another Jamil tip would be to pitch about 4 vials of yeast or make about a 4 litre starter.

Personally I think he over does the pitching rates but this beer will require multiple vials or a really good healthy starter.

Rudeboy

Yeah, I will be doing a full 1 gallon starter for this--that's what I've been doing ever since I underpitched my first lager and the yeast pooped out on me.