Hi. I have been making very small batches of cheese for a few years now, mostly easier cheeses like brie and feta. I have even managed a few aged cheeses. The aged cheese didnt work out to taste exactly as I expected but it did work out. Not having access to fresh milk, everything I have made so far has been with store bought, pasteurized cow or goat milk.
Learning the hard way
- Thread starter Mtn.Rose
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Lately, I have tried to work with store bought pasturized goats milk *with calcium chloride snd a dan of lipase). I was planning on making a thermophilic hard cheese but for each of the 3 batches, I have had the exact same problem. Everything goes well for the first stages, until I tried to cook the curds. Despite following the directions very carefully, slowly raising the temperature, stirring every few minutes... the curds stayed too moist. They would not get even slightly dry/rubbery/squeeky. Eventually, I decided to ladel the curds into moulds and let them press under about 10 pounds overnight. Morning revealed something resembling a slightly grainy cream cheese. Just out of curiosity I tried heating a little bit in very hot water as per mozzarella. Not surprisingly, that didn't work and just gave me warm soggy cream cheese.
It tastes goodvand I will use it like cream cheese but, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING ? Is it the milk ? My rennet is getting a bit old. I get a clesn break but could it be the rennet ? Suggestions welcome !
It tastes goodvand I will use it like cream cheese but, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING ? Is it the milk ? My rennet is getting a bit old. I get a clesn break but could it be the rennet ? Suggestions welcome !
Welcome to our forums!
We have some seasoned cheese makers here too. We cover pretty much anything fermented, with some surprises left, occasionally.
We have some seasoned cheese makers here too. We cover pretty much anything fermented, with some surprises left, occasionally.
wallyLOZ
Well-Known Member
Welcome to HBT!
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
In the US, most store-bought goats' milk is ultra-pasteurized. You really cannot create strong curds with UHT milk. Are you certain that your milk has been low temperature pasteurized?
It's organic goats milk, standard pasturization, not UHT. The milk comes in plastic 2 litre jugs in the refrigerated dairy section at my grocery store. It was close to its best before date but definitely had not spoiled.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
OK, if you KNOW that it is not ultra-pasteurized, then I have no good answer unless your rennet was spoiled or was for making junket and not cheese. But could you possibly check the packaging on that milk? As I say, over this side of the border, I don't think it is possible to buy low pasteurized goats' milk from a store. Whenever I make chevre, I need to ask a colleague who keeps goats for some milk.
I'm lucky, I can get raw goat and cow milk. That is gonna make your life better. Organic is likely the worst for your purposes... organic products move more slowly off the shelf, so they get MUCH harsher treatment in pastuerization. You're better off with Walmart whole. You can buy "cream on top" milk in Whole foods that hasn't been homogenized - that does work better.
Regarding curd stiffness, cutting the curds smaller and earlier will make a dryer cheese. IOW, large curds hold more moisture. And, the longer you let the milk set after adding rennet, the stronger the curds will be, and they will hold more moisture.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/house-jack.702437/#post-9311513
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@bernardsmith how are you. Have you been making any cheese? Don't worry about being off topic here, nobody reads the cheese threads.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
Ha. Ha. Doing OK. And have indeed, been making cheese. Just waxed a Cheddar and opened an Asiago, and today I began making a Gouda - It's undergoing an overnight press and will be brined on Friday.My first washed curd cheese AND my first wheel that used two gallons of milk. On the 'wine" side, I just cracked open a bottle of heather honey mead that I dry hopped and carbonated and it's delightful. Am in the middle of fermenting (literally) a Malbec and I have some whey wine that I will be transforming into a liqueur...
How are you doing?
How are you doing?
I'm fine sir. Sounds like you're enjoying the subtler things, as do I. The slow foods are my thing.
So you're waxing? I did t hat once. Loved the presentation of it, but SO much easier to just vac bag.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
I would agree with you, except that I have no way to vacuum pack anything. As it happens, I occasionally make beeswax candles so I am all set up for cheese waxing (I use a double boiler, so never get the wax above 212 F, so the heat is not enough to wipe out every last mold cell, but it is hot enough to do almost everything I need it to do and still be cool enough to never ignite.
On a very different note, I just added my Gouda to the brine, and was doing some research and see that some recipes suggest that one adds salt to the curds just before pressing, while others don't. I didn't but when I made the cheese I never knew that salting AND brining were both on the table. Are you at all familiar with THAT process? I never salted the cheese before I pressed, Is that (only?) to expel more whey? Can't be for taste or to control the ripening,surely - I am to bring with an 18% brine for 12 hours, so taste is not an issue, is it? And when washing the weights my recipe suggested I use and the length of time under pressure would presumably have been sufficient to pull enough whey from the cheese. Thoughts? Thanks.
On a very different note, I just added my Gouda to the brine, and was doing some research and see that some recipes suggest that one adds salt to the curds just before pressing, while others don't. I didn't but when I made the cheese I never knew that salting AND brining were both on the table. Are you at all familiar with THAT process? I never salted the cheese before I pressed, Is that (only?) to expel more whey? Can't be for taste or to control the ripening,surely - I am to bring with an 18% brine for 12 hours, so taste is not an issue, is it? And when washing the weights my recipe suggested I use and the length of time under pressure would presumably have been sufficient to pull enough whey from the cheese. Thoughts? Thanks.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
After a little more research, I see that there are three methods of salting Gouda (Perhaps 4), adding salt to the curds, adding salt to the rind, bringing and brining after adding salt to the curds... I am using an 18% brine (not the 25%) and planning on brining the 2 lbs (more or less: will weigh just before I air dry) for 12 hours. Should be salty enough...
I dont have a lot of experience with this but, over the years, I have made a few waxed cheeses. Some of these ened up being brined before waxing but several didnt. I didnt have any mould grow under the wax (and destroy the cheese) on the wheels I brined but I did have 2 wheels destroyed by mould on wheels I didn't brine. I'm wondering if the brining helps because you cant just wipe down any mould that appears under wax. I don't know if this is good science or just coincidence.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
Hiya Mtn.Rose, Certainly no expert, but some cheeses are salted before pressing, some cheeses are dry salted and some cheeses are brined. For example, Cheddar is salted before pressing, Feta is brined, and squeaky curd cheese is salted after pressing. That - in my limited experience - has very little to do with the inhibition of mold development. Waxing is an older method of mold inhibition than vacuum packing, but both inhibit the development of mold because mold require oxygen (air) to grow, and both vacuum packing and waxing are designed to minimize air's ability to access the cheese. If you simply allow a cheese to age at around 50 -55 F in an environment of 85-90% humidity (which both vacuuming and waxing provide, the cheese is likely to grow mold on the rind and you would remove the rind (or not) with brine or acid - neither are mold friendly, or a brush. There is another traditional method of both encouraging SOME varieties of mold to thrive and preventung unwanted molds, and that is to bandage the cheese with fat soaked cheese cloth, could be butter, or animal fat or coconut oil. The mold teds to grow ON the wrapping but is unable to grow on the cheese beneath the cloth, so you gain the benefit of the flavors and aromas of the desired molds without any growth on the rind.
All that said, if the mold has begun to take hold BEFORE you wax or vacuum pack, or even wrap the cheese, that mold will have enough oxygen to grow. so you can still have mold growing behind wax or even if the cheese is vacuum sealed. This is why it is important to nbe sure to remove all traces of mold before you wax or vacuum seal a cheese. Neither process acts as a bactericide. They simply inhibit the growth of new mold.
All that said, if the mold has begun to take hold BEFORE you wax or vacuum pack, or even wrap the cheese, that mold will have enough oxygen to grow. so you can still have mold growing behind wax or even if the cheese is vacuum sealed. This is why it is important to nbe sure to remove all traces of mold before you wax or vacuum seal a cheese. Neither process acts as a bactericide. They simply inhibit the growth of new mold.
Ya, I figure I ended up with mold spores landing on the cheeses I rubbed salt on and must have found spots with less salt to begin life - way too small to be noticed. After waxing they continued to grow. I'm guessing that either my kitchen was just cleaner when I made the brined cheeses, or the brine set up a less friendly environment for the mold to grow.
I have to make quick maturing cheese (brie), brine stored cheese (feta) or waxed cheese because I am away a lot and for long periods so can't moniter how my cheese is aging. I can't turn my waxed cheese either but so far this has not reduced the ediblity of the final product. Im reluctant to try the wrapped and buttered method because of how much I am gone.
I have to make quick maturing cheese (brie), brine stored cheese (feta) or waxed cheese because I am away a lot and for long periods so can't moniter how my cheese is aging. I can't turn my waxed cheese either but so far this has not reduced the ediblity of the final product. Im reluctant to try the wrapped and buttered method because of how much I am gone.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
With waxed cheeses, you should not really need to monitor them as closely as you might with unwaxed or cheeses exposed to the air. Not certain, but I do think you almost certainly need to turn the cheeses about twice a week to ensure any moisture in the cheese is not pulled by gravity through the cheese to the bottom. Turning ensures that the top and bottom are turned so that no moisture flows only in one direction through the cheese: it's always going to flow towards the floor, but when you turn the cheese, yesterday's bottom is today's top
With brined cheese, you either have cheese sitting in brine (Feta) or cheese with a thin layer of salt from the evaporated brine on the surface, and molds typically need to attach themselves to the nutritious surface of the organic material. They can't do that through liquid or through salt - which is toxic (I think salt pulls moisture from their cells, killing them). Honestly , don't think that you need to become anxious that your cheese room or kitchen isn't as clean as it once was. We are not working in STERILIZED environments. Sanitized environments DO have bacteria and molds but we work to inhibit their presence and their actions. This is not an operating room in a hospital. And indeed, some molds, and some bacteria are VERY desirable. Some are not.
