Lazy NEIPA Recipe Question

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
Riding the coat tails of a few 15 minute brews I have decided to give a NEIPA a try under the same concept and would like some feed back on the process, my biggest question is how / when to incorporate flaked oats into the process. Please let me know if the grain bill is to much as well.

Fermenting Capacity: 4 gallons

Grain Bill:
  • 3 lbs Light Dried Malt Extract
  • 1.5 lbs Wheat Dried Malt Extract
  • 5 ounces Corn Sugar
  • 1 lb Flaked Oats (thinking I need to steep these but when?)
Hops:
  • 1 oz Cascade 15 minute boil
  • 2 oz Citra and 2 oz Mosaic whirlpool at 170 F (cool down from boil)
  • 2 oz Citra and 1 oz Mosaic dry hop in keg
The Process:

Heat 2 gallons of water to boiling. When the water starts to boil (or even a little before), add Dried Malt Extract, Wheat Malt Extract, Corn Sugar and 1 oz. Cascade Hops. Set your timer for 15 minutes. After 15 minutes, bring down to 170 F and whirlpool 2 oz Citra and 2 oz Mosaic for 30 min. Where to add flaked oats before or after??????


Thanks in advance for feedback!
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
18,301
Reaction score
8,434
Location
Pasadena, MD
A few more thoughts.

If
you want to use the flaked oats they need to be mashed, steeping won't do much good. @BrewnWKopperKat provided a good link on how to do that mini mash process, but it easily adds an extra 45 minutes to an hour to your brewday.

I think the oils in the oats add something, possibly the dextrins too, but I'm not convinced one could single that out easily.

To reduce wort darkening and extra caramelization I would boil only half the extracts in the 2 gallons (half your batch's) water volume. Add the remainder of the extracts directly after flameout, before chilling to 170F for your hop stand/whirlpool.

I always add sugars and syrups to the fermenter, never to the kettle. Either dissolved in some hot water or held-back wort and re-pasteurized at 170F. I usually add them when fermentation has slowed somewhat, and sometimes with dry hops. You only have a small amount of sugar, so I don't think it's all that critical when to add it.

Adding 4 oz of those hops @170F will give you a decent amount of bittering, perhaps too much? Have you done that before as a gauge? Lately I've been splitting the whirlpool hop additions to 170F or 160F (15') and 150F (30') to retain more flavor and aroma and get less bittering from them.
Your wort being at double gravity will reduce bittering utilization somewhat, not sure how it influences flavor and aroma extraction, possibly not all that significant.
 
OP
V

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
Thanks for the comments, I incorporated y'alls feed back and did the following:

I added 1/4 of the Golden Light DME and 1/4 Bavarian Wheat at 155 F and then at 155-160 F added the pound of flaked oats in a large muslin sack. I let all that min-mash for 45 min at 160F (which I realize now was very high). Then I heated that up to a boil add 1 oz cascade hops for 15 min, cooled down to 152F add the rest of the DMEs and whirpooled 2 oz Mosaic and 2 oz Citra for 20 min. then added 2 gallons of water. Cooled it all down to pitching temps and added dehydrated nottingham.

For my water profile I was using distilled water with gypsum and calcium chloride added.
 

wepeeler

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
954
Reaction score
1,429
Location
CT
A few more thoughts.

If
you want to use the flaked oats they need to be mashed, steeping won't do much good. @BrewnWKopperKat provided a good link on how to do that mini mash process, but it easily adds an extra 45 minutes to an hour to your brewday.

I think the oils in the oats add something, possibly the dextrins too, but I'm not convinced one could single that out easily.

To reduce wort darkening and extra caramelization I would boil only half the extracts in the 2 gallons (half your batch's) water volume. Add the remainder of the extracts directly after flameout, before chilling to 170F for your hop stand/whirlpool.

I always add sugars and syrups to the fermenter, never to the kettle. Either dissolved in some hot water or held-back wort and re-pasteurized at 170F. I usually add them when fermentation has slowed somewhat, and sometimes with dry hops. You only have a small amount of sugar, so I don't think it's all that critical when to add it.

Adding 4 oz of those hops @170F will give you a decent amount of bittering, perhaps too much? Have you done that before as a gauge? Lately I've been splitting the whirlpool hop additions to 170F or 160F (15') and 150F (30') to retain more flavor and aroma and get less bittering from them.
Your wort being at double gravity will reduce bittering utilization somewhat, not sure how it influences flavor and aroma extraction, possibly not all that significant.
Oats need to be in the presence of a malted grain to extract any fermentables. Mashing them alone does nothing. Since he's using extract, he'd only need to steep them for 20 min at around 150-155F before bringing to a boil.

Thanks for the comments, I incorporated y'alls feed back and did the following:

I added 1/4 of the Golden Light DME and 1/4 Bavarian Wheat at 155 F and then at 155-160 F added the pound of flaked oats in a large muslin sack. I let all that min-mash for 45 min at 160F (which I realize now was very high). Then I heated that up to a boil add 1 oz cascade hops for 15 min, cooled down to 152F add the rest of the DMEs and whirpooled 2 oz Mosaic and 2 oz Citra for 20 min. then added 2 gallons of water. Cooled it all down to pitching temps and added dehydrated nottingham.

For my water profile I was using distilled water with gypsum and calcium chloride added.
You don't need to add gypsum or calcium chloride (or any brewing salts) to water for extract brewing. Whoever made the dme already dealt with the water chemistry during the dme process.
 
OP
V

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
Oats need to be in the presence of a malted grain to extract any fermentables. Mashing them alone does nothing. Since he's using extract, he'd only need to steep them for 20 min at around 150-155F before bringing to a boil.


You don't need to add gypsum or calcium chloride (or any brewing salts) to water for extract brewing. Whoever made the dme already dealt with the water chemistry during the dme process.
Thanks for the input! So given that I did add the gypsum and calcium chloride and I did a mini mash with my Flaked Oats (which I wasn't as concerned with extracting sugar just more for body and mouthfeel), what are possible ill affects? I used Nottingham Yeast which fermented very quickly and I'm giving it some time to clean up before taste testing but aroma wise its smelling great so far.
 

mashpaddled

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2018
Messages
616
Reaction score
361
Location
Denver, CO
Soaking oats without the presence of malted grain is still going to extract protein, starch and flavor. Just look at the liquid when you make oatmeal at home.

I agree OP should do a mini-mash to gain fermentable sugars from the oats as well though.
 

wepeeler

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
954
Reaction score
1,429
Location
CT
Thanks for the input! So given that I did add the gypsum and calcium chloride and I did a mini mash with my Flaked Oats (which I wasn't as concerned with extracting sugar just more for body and mouthfeel), what are possible ill affects? I used Nottingham Yeast which fermented very quickly and I'm giving it some time to clean up before taste testing but aroma wise its smelling great so far.
So I shouldn't have said mashing them alone does nothing. You will get some mouthfeel and proteins that will help contribute to haze. But without having any malted grain for enzymes, you will not have extracted any fermentables. So essentially, you did a steeping, not a mash.

I once added gypsum and calcium chloride to an extract batch, and it tasted like I oversalted the beer. It faded slightly after a few weeks in the keg, but I didn't love that batch. It didn't smell any different from other extract batches I made, but I could certainly taste the difference.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
18,301
Reaction score
8,434
Location
Pasadena, MD
Oats need to be in the presence of a malted grain to extract any fermentables. Mashing them alone does nothing. Since he's using extract, he'd only need to steep them for 20 min at around 150-155F before bringing to a boil.
I believe when we use the term "mashing" in context of beer brewing, we mean the process where we mix hot water and crushed diastatic grain together, possibly along with non-diastatic adjuncts, and let this mixture rest at certain temperatures to activate the enzymes which convert the starches to sugars. More on this here.

As I mentioned before, steeping flaked oats (or any starchy, non-diastatic adjunct), by themselves, at any temperature won't do anything, except create a sticky porridge. However, the content of the steeping bag, sweetened by the malt extract, would have been really tasty, and a good nourishing breakfast, to be enjoyed any time of the day!
I added 1/4 of the Golden Light DME and 1/4 Bavarian Wheat at 155 F and then at 155-160 F added the pound of flaked oats in a large muslin sack. I let all that min-mash for 45 min at 160F (which I realize now was very high)
I did a mini mash with my Flaked Oats (which I wasn't as concerned with extracting sugar just more for body and mouthfeel), what are possible ill affects?
Sorry, that was not a "mini mash" as you did not use any diastatic malt (containing enzymes) with it. 160F would have been indeed borderline too high. No ill effects, really, it possibly only added some starch to your wort that will all settle out later after fermentation has completed. As such, it won't add any mouthfeel or body.
For my water profile I was using distilled water with gypsum and calcium chloride added.
How much of those did you add?
You don't need to add gypsum or calcium chloride (or any brewing salts) to water for extract brewing. Whoever made the dme already dealt with the water chemistry during the dme process.
No, he did right by adding some brewing salts because a) he's using distilled water and b) he's brewing a NEIPA, which requires much higher concentrations of Chloride and Sulfate and at certain ratios than provided in malt extract, even if it came from Briess. ;)
The extra Calcium won't hurt either in this style.
 
Last edited:

wepeeler

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
954
Reaction score
1,429
Location
CT
I believe when we use the term "mashing" in context of beer brewing, we mean the process where we mix hot water and crushed diastatic grain together, possibly along with non-diastatic adjuncts, and let this mixture rest at certain temperatures to activate the enzymes which convert the starches to sugars. More on this here.

No, he did right by adding some brewing salts because a) he's using distilled water and b) he's brewing a NEIPA, which requires much higher concentrations of Chloride and Sulfate and at certain ratios than provided in malt extract, even if it came from Briess. ;)
The extra Calcium won't hurt either in this style.
Ah. After reading your initial reply again, I thought you were telling him to just mash the oats. I was under the impression that steeping oats/wheat would add to mouthfeel? Many neipa premade kits have these adjuncts and are steeped. If it contributes nothing to the mouthfeel,, why would they be added to the ingredients?

The issue with adding salts to extract brewing is you need to know what the manufacturer added first. It's a shot in the dark to just add salts to RO or distilled water when extract brewing. Before I went all grain, I added gypsum and calcium chloride to my extract batch, and it was too much. Tasted like I salted my beer. Although, I hate the taste of salt, so perhaps I notice it more than the next guy?
 
OP
V

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
I'll be drawing a sample tomorrow, so I will let you all know how its coming along.

Edit:

Also to add, I don't know if the fermentation process would change this but I tried a sample of the wort before pitching and did not have a salt taste, it was pretty sweet.
 

wepeeler

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
954
Reaction score
1,429
Location
CT
I'll be drawing a sample tomorrow, so I will let you all know how its coming along.

Edit:

Also to add, I don't know if the fermentation process would change this but I tried a sample of the wort before pitching and did not have a salt taste, it was pretty sweet.
Fermentation will change that drastically. Remember, you started with 5 pounds of sugar and boiled it! Before the yeast eats the sugar, it's sugar water, so you most likely couldn't taste any of the additions. I'm sure it'll be ok. I'm just going by my personal experience with extract and additions.
 

IslandLizard

Progressive Brewing
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 9, 2013
Messages
18,301
Reaction score
8,434
Location
Pasadena, MD
Many neipa premade kits have these adjuncts and are steeped.
Yup! Many extract kits include ingredients that should be mashed, not steeped. For illustration, here's another good write-up why steeping flaked oats is basically futile. Same is true for finding flaked wheat in Witbier, or flaked Oats in Oatmeal Stout extract recipes. Even (starchy) specialty malts like Melanoidin, Victory, Honey Malt, Carafoam/Carapils are often found with instructions to steep. :tank:

This, while a mini mash can be performed just as easily in about the same time or 20 minutes extra for far superior results.

Re: Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions, they do add a mineral profile to the beer, but if used in moderation they won't surpass our taste threshold, and are found to be enhancements such as accentuating bitterness (sulfate) or softness, fluffiness (chloride) in the presence of hops.

Now Sodium is easily overdone, so baking soda and table salt additions need to be much more restrained. Similar for Magnesium (Epsom Salt).
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
3,031
Reaction score
1,965
Location
· ···
The issue with adding salts to extract brewing is you need to know what the manufacturer added first. It's a shot in the dark to just add salts to RO or distilled water when extract brewing. Before I went all grain, I added gypsum and calcium chloride to my extract batch, and it was too much. Tasted like I salted my beer. Although, I hate the taste of salt, so perhaps I notice it more than the next guy?
With extract+steep recipes, I have had some good results with adding very small amounts of gypsum to hop forward styles. A well written web search will also find processes for experimenting with brewing salts "in the glass". So one could take those results and work it back into the brewing process. But it's also really easy to over-mineralize the batch.
 

wepeeler

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 31, 2018
Messages
954
Reaction score
1,429
Location
CT
Yup! Many extract kits include ingredients that should be mashed, not steeped. For illustration, here's another good write-up why steeping flaked oats is basically futile. Same is true for finding flaked wheat in Witbier, or flaked Oats in Oatmeal Stout extract recipes. Even (starchy) specialty malts like Melanoidin, Victory, Honey Malt, Carafoam/Carapils are often found with instructions to steep. :tank:

This, while a mini mash can be performed just as easily in about the same time or 20 minutes extra for far superior results.

Re: Gypsum and Calcium Chloride additions, they do add a mineral profile to the beer, but if used in moderation they won't surpass our taste threshold, and are found to be enhancements such as accentuating bitterness (sulfate) or softness, fluffiness (chloride) in the presence of hops.

Now Sodium is easily overdone, so baking soda and table salt additions need to be much more restrained. Similar for Magnesium (Epsom Salt).
I've done steeping and mini mashes, and I do agree that the mini mash adds more complexity.

In my 1 experience with water additions and extract I only used gypsum and calcium chloride. I instantly tasted the difference from my previous batches, and I wouldn't do it in the future.

With extract+steep recipes, I have had some good results with adding very small amounts of gypsum to hop forward styles. A well written web search will also find processes for experimenting with brewing salts "in the glass". So one could take those results and work it back into the brewing process. But it's also really easy to over-mineralize the batch.
I have read those too. Interesting reads. I prefer to experiment with full batches tbh. Always evolving...
 
OP
V

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
IMG_4279.JPG


So far so good! It’s a little lighter than pictured but has a great juice / haze look. Taste pretty great too! I got a very small hint of the salt taste that was mentioned while I was looking for it in the first sip but subsequent sips after that I couldn’t find it anymore. The frothy, pillowy mouthful was there though! I have this dry hopping and carbonating in the keg right now and will post once I draw a full pint.
 
OP
V

Virginia_Ranger

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
247
Reaction score
45
Location
Richmond
IMG_4309.JPG


Thanks for all the input on this beer everyone! I will be making this again for sure - took 10 days from kettle to glass and is probably one of my favorite beers I have done far. I don’t think this keg is going to last more than a week or so!
 
Top