Late Extract Addition

[Funkenjaeger]

I've been talking about the late extract addition method with the guy at the LHBS. He'd never heard of this method. I've been using it for quite a few batches now, especially lighter brews like hefeweizens, to keep them light. He did not seem to think it was a very good idea, which was quite surprising to me because I don't think I've heard anyone say anything negative about late extract addition to this point, so I wanted to dig a little deeper.

He said that he thought that only boiling most of the extract for 15 mins or so would cause problems - that the full boiling time was needed to properly coagulate and precipitate undesirable proteins out of the wort, and that the late extract addition would end up affecting the fermentation as a result, leaving lots of unfermentables and other undesirable things in there.

My thinking was that since malt extract is made by mashing grains and then boiling the resulting wort down to concentrate it into extract, that much of the 'undesirables' would have already been coagulated/driven off/etc before you even got the extract. But, I don't know how the low-pressure boiling environment they use to reduce extract affects this. I suppose part of my reason for thinking this was that I thought all-grain batches had much more significant hot break than extract batches (thus a lot more proteins and junk that need to be boiled), which I very well may be wrong about.

So I guess the real questions are (with all issues of hop utilization aside):
1) is there enough protein/etc in malt extract that it is very detrimental to not boil it long enough?
2) does most of the coagulation/etc occur during the hot break, or does it mostly occur as a slow process throughout the boil?
3) if it doesn't happen all at once, how long a boil is "long enough"? Is the 10-15 minutes normally used with late extract additions insufficient? Does it need to be the full 60+ minutes?

So I'd be quite interested in hearing any other opinions on the matter.

 

[Beerrific]

There is an interview on Basic Brewing Radio with a guy from Briess and he said their extract truly needs no boil, but you probably should for 15 minutes to sanitize since it might not have been handled properly.

You are right, all the hot and cold break is removed when it is boiled the first time.

 

[ArroganceFan]

Do you have any batches that you have bottled/kegged since you started this? As an extract brewer myself, I am curious how the final outcomes have been and if this method is worth trying.

 

[Beerrific]

Do you have any batches that you have bottled/kegged since you started this? As an extract brewer myself, I am curious how the final outcomes have been and if this method is worth trying.

I have done it once. It was a mini mash Kolsch. I added no extract at the begining, only the wort from the mash. I added 3 pound or so at the end. I had a very large cold break in the fermenter but I think that was from the mash plus I cooled slowly and transfered everything from the kettle. Fermentation went fine. It has come out very light. There are a lot of people that do this. If you do a search and look for posts by homebrewer_99, he does it and by the looks he makes awesome beer.

Here's that Kolsch:

 

[worxman02]

I just did a late extract addition with my belgian wit in order to keep it light. I just bottled it recently and it tastes great and is a nice light color. I dont think that there are any adverse effects to it. Plus i remember reading i think in Palmer's "how to brew" that buy doing a late extract addition you get better hop utilization during the boil.

 

[Beerrific]

Here you go, this is the thread you should be reading: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=26151

 

[RickWG]

I do it in every brew, well, maybe not in the stout I just did but it's a stout. The hefe, pa, ipa, cream ale...etc have all been late additions.
Happy with them all.

 

[cardiac_cadet002]

so are you just boiling water and hops for the first 45 minutes of a 60 minute boil?

 

[mot]

There is an interview on Basic Brewing Radio with a guy from Briess and he said their extract truly needs no boil, but you probably should for 15 minutes to sanitize since it might not have been handled properly.

You are right, all the hot and cold break is removed when it is boiled the first time.

there was a podcast it might have been BBR but I think it was caligonie said that you dont even need to boil it for 15 minutes adding it at floame ouot is efficinet because it will be well above 170 for a little bit and that should kill everything

 

[Beerrific]

there was a podcast it might have been BBR but I think it was caligonie said that you dont even need to boil it for 15 minutes adding it at floame ouot is efficinet because it will be well above 170 for a little bit and that should kill everything

It depends on how fast you chill, but yeah your right, flame out would probably be fine.

 

[homebrewer_99]

HB99 in da house...OK, that's overkill and silly...

Lots of good info/discussion and most of it correct...

Malts are either LME or DME and acquired from all grain worts.

LME is hopped concentrated wort.

DME, also called Spray Malt because it is sprayed as a liquid into a very hot chamber that dries it before it hits the bottom of the chamber, is also concentrated malt, albeit unhopped.

Research indicates the hot break was accomplished on the grain wort so it is, by default, also completed with the LME and DME.

"No-boil kits" usually contain LME whereas a build your own recommends a 60 min boil. Why? They do not contain hop bitterness.

In Charlie P's TCJOHB, page 258, there is a Hop Utilization Chart. Reading columns 1 & 2 you will see that boiling 1 gal of water with 1 lb of extract (presumed DME by me) and boil for 60 mins that extracts the greatest hop utilization of 30%.

It only makes sense that you should not need to boil any longer or even boil pre-hopped malts (LME).

In conclusion...the answers to your questions are:

1) is there enough protein/etc in malt extract that it is very detrimental to not boil it long enough?

Already achieved in the grain boil.

2) does most of the coagulation/etc occur during the hot break, or does it mostly occur as a slow process throughout the boil?

Already achieved in the grain boil.

3) if it doesn't happen all at once, how long a boil is "long enough"? Just enough time to pasteurize your malt. Is the 10-15 minutes normally used with late extract additions insufficient? I think that's the general concensus for pasteurizing. Does it need to be the full 60+ minutes? Only if you are using DME and need to extract hop bitterness from hops.

I'll have some additional comments for my last reply.

Using the same chart identified above you can see that you can extract the same hop bitterness when you cut the boil time in half and double up on the hops...interesting, huh? A word of caution here. While the proper bitterness level is achieved in only 30 mins a side effect is the same hops are also being used as a flavor hop. If you desire a flavor hop then I recommend this method. However, I noticed n the batch I rduced the boil time that the flavor hop flavor subsided in the brew after 4-6 weeks. If you age your brews long enough you can reduce your boil time this way. Imagine how much propane you can save?
I hope I have explained myself well enough. PROSIT!!

 

[RickWG]

so are you just boiling water and hops for the first 45 minutes of a 60 minute boil?

Depends. I've done it that way, after steeping of course but it "feels" a little wierd. I've added about a pound or half pound at the begining to feel better and just added the hops. They all came out very good.

Theoretically, as I'm a chemist, what is being done is converting the alpha acids to beta acids, as I understand it, with the bittering hops. You would extract the maximum amount of alphas soluble in the wort and when they are converted to betas by heat more alphas come out. This keeps going for 60 minutes. In more technical terms there is a saturation point to the amount of alphas that can be extracted and once some turn to betas the saturation point is met again by extracting more alphas. Vicious cycle for 60 minutes.
As the amount of acids you can extract is greater for a lower gravity liquid you would extract more acids with less sugar in the solvent. So if you did just boil water you would get better hop utilization in theory.
Since we like the aroma of alpha acids we add more toward the middle and end to give us more alphas to smell. Since 90% of taste is in the smell, well you get it.

Meh, I wasn't totally right but it about works that way chemically. (See the above answer) Doubling the hops and halving the time does the same thing. Provides more alphas to turn to betas quicker...... not as good utilization but I've done that as well when I didn't want to sit at the kettle all day. Hops are cheap, time is expensive.

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Thanks for all the info guys. I definitely remain confident enough in this method to continue using it for my brews.

Perhaps at some point if I really want to brew a double batch of something all in one day, I'll try one with late extract and one without, and compare the finished beers. Of course, this may have to wait until winter, because I just picked up a turkey fryer so I'll be doing full boils (where late addition isn't so important) until it gets cold enough outside to drive me back into the kitchen doing partial boils on the stove!

 

[wg_one]

These forums have been a great resource for me, a new brewer as of about 4 months ago. I've already run several batches of extract brew and lately I've been getting some scorching from the LME. I was wondering how to remedy this and I've gotten my answer here. I'm going to try adding my LME before the wort reaches boiling next time, and then I'll try a late addition and see how that works out.

 

[sendkyleanemail]

HB99 in da house...OK, that's overkill and silly...



LME is hopped concentrated wort.

DME, also called Spray Malt because it is sprayed as a liquid into a very hot chamber that dries it before it hits the bottom of the chamber, is also concentrated malt, albeit unhopped.

Not ALL LME products are hopped. Hopped LME products are typical part of a kit. But you can buy LME in many varieties (Pilsner, Light, Amber, Wheat, Dark, etc..) which are not hopped.

 

[unionrdr]

Well,1st off LME IS NOT ALWAYS pre-hopped. It just stands for Liquid Malt Extract. And you can get DME pre-hopped as well. Un-hopped DME is called "plain" on the label. I use them all the time.
Never boil pre-hopped malt. You'll destroy the hop profile & darken it. I use a 3lb bag of plain DME in my ales. But only 1.5lbs of it in the 2.5G boil to do my hop additions. Then add the remaining DME,cooper's LME can,& steep just off the heat for 15 mins. Never a single problem.
I've done it both ways,& the late extract addition method is def better with 3 hop additions,4th to dry hop if you desire. Or if you're making an IPA.
And horrors! I made a starter for dry yeast,for the 4th time,& it worked even better than the other times! Wait a tick...he can't do that...you can't make starters for dry yeast,it ruins the nutrient coating as well. OMFG! What has he done? AAAAARRGGGH!! Go ahead,starters for dry yeast are perfectly fine,& work great. I've taken a lot of flack for this one. But I've proven that it's NOT detrimental to the dry yeast by doing so.
Yeast is yeast,it doesn't give a flyin rats a$$ if it's wet or dry. Imo,the "nutrient" on the dry yeast is to keep it alive till it's used.