Late Addition DME

[Architect-Dave]

So, I have been reading about adding DME at late boil to keep the beer color light. I have an extract DME kit for an American Wheat. 2 hop additions…one at start of boil and the other at 15 minutes before flame out. The recipe calls for adding all 6 pounds of DME at the beginning. It is a 5 gallon recipe. I read on these forums about adding half up front and the other half at 10 minutes before flame put to keep the color light. I also heard to add just a pound at the beginning to aid with the hops at the start of the boil. I really do not think I can screws this simple kit up, but wanted to add as much of the DME at the end to keep it light. So, any suggestions as to how much to add at the beginning would be helpful. Many thanks in advance!

 

[Kickass]

It’s been a while since I’ve done a light colored extract beer but I’d be comfortable doing half at the end. Maybe 2 up from and 4 at the end.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Check out @D.B.Moody's 30min process with half the DME at flameout.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/i-brewed-a-favorite-recipe-today.687986/post-9304869

 

[IslandLizard]

Are you doing a full boil or a partial boil with top-up in fermenter?
In the latter case (partial boil), you'd boil even less extract, most going in at flameout.

Check out @D.B.Moody's 30min process with half the DME at flameout.

That! ^

 

[kartracer2]

I do this all the time but I generally wait till flame-out to add the remaining extract. You will need to make another adjustment or two also. A less dense wort will increase your hop utilization. What I do is reduce the boil time to compensate for that. Reducing the boil/bittering hop amount will also work if you want to go that way instead. I seldom, if ever, adjust the flavor or aroma hop amount/schedule. YMMV.
It's really all about keeping the IBU/SG ratio in check as the recipe was intended. I use BeerSmith to do all the "ciphering" for me.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

wanted to add as much of the DME at the end [...]

This article (link) has a process outline for brewing with almost all the extract added at the end of the boil. The last paragraph covers hop adjustments. I've used the process once or twice. The process produces good beer.

@D.B.Moody 's process (link in #2 above) is a nice refinement on the traditional "partial boil with late additions of extract" approach. How to Brew, 4e (2017), in the 1st 9 chapters of the book, is a good source of addition information on the basic process. (There are still a couple of things in the book that still have not made it into "forum wisdom").

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wanted to add as much of the DME at the end to keep it light.

When I brew a 'traditional' recipe with DME, my process is add all the DME before the start of the boil (typically at 140F if no steeping grains are involved, otherwise 160F) then do a 30 min low intensity boil (indirect link to visual reference).

I have measured the wort color at the start and at the end of the boil. It doesn't darken much (1-ish SRM). I suspect that DME, properly added and boiled, darkens at about the same rate as an all-grain wort but have not done the measurements.

(eta: I have very little experience with LME. Discussion across the active forums is pretty negative on it. I suspect there are brewers that have source(s) for fresh (properly stored and shipped, aka their LHBS) LME. But they may not have a compelling reason to share their experiences.

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With the claims of "extract darker than expected", one probably needs to know

• the color of the wort at the start of the boil ,
• the color of the wort at the end of the boil,
• the boil intensity, and
• how the extract was added to the kettle.

Otherwise the reports probably contain insufficient information to troubleshoot the problem.

---

Stale LME is a likely primary cause of most 'extract darker than expected' reports. If the LME starts the boil as an SRM 12 wort in the kettle, adding half at the end of the boil won't create an SRM 4 wort.

Secondary causes (indirect link to recent discussion) may include boiling too hard and improper mixing (resulting in either scorching or a layer of concentrated wort at the bottom of the kettle). It may be that adding all the DME late is a 'work-around' for these situations. On the other hand, a "proper boil" is one of the "top priorities" for making good beer.

 

[Miraculix]

You actually don't need to boil the extract at all, unless it's low quality and needs the boil to kill something in it which shouldn't be there.

I just made one of my best beers ever with this method.... I'm a bit shocked tbh because it's extract. And it's my best apa so far.

I'll write down the proces in another dedicated thread.

The only thing you need to keep in mind is that IBU utilisation is actually higher without any malt extract in solution during the boil, so you have to account for that. Brewers friend let's you fill in the boil og which accounts for this. It should be 1.0 in this case.

 

[Architect-Dave]

Are you doing a full boil or a partial boil with top-up in fermenter?
In the latter case (partial boil), you'd boil even less extract, most going in at flameout.


That! ^

I do partial - 2.5 gallons on the burner, another 2.5 gallons in a covered pot sitting on my deck getting down to around 40 degrees to aid in cold break at end, then running my wort chiller. Transfer to fermenter, top off with additional cold water and add yeast.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I do partial - 2.5 gallons on the burner, another 2.5 gallons in a covered pot sitting on my deck getting down to around 40 degrees to aid in cold break at end, then running my wort chiller. Transfer to fermenter, top off with additional cold water and add yeast.

Note that "concentrated" boils may [1] be a source of 'excessive' darkening. With a partial boil, adding half the DME at the start of the boil and ending the boil with half the water will help avoid an accidental 'concentrated' boil.

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[1] OTOH, I've made a couple of OG 70-ish worts (DME, BIAB) that were reduced to OG 50-ish in the fermenter. Color was appropriate for the style (probably mid-range).

 

[kylewag]

I do this all the time now. I've made a cream ale with an ending SRM less than 2 with this method (see attached photo). I brewed for 25+ years and was never able to get a beer this light with LME and boiling all the extract for the entire length of the boil. It's important to use DME as LME can darken in the can/jug as it slowly oxidizes. Here's a nice article about this Late Malt Extract Additions. I've always added my late addition with 15 minutes left in the boil to get another hot break. I don't think that is necessary though. I just got John Palmers most recent addition of his book, "How to Brew" and he adds it at flameout and lets it sit for 15 minutes with the hop stand. Honestly, either way should work fine.

 

[Architect-Dave]

I do this all the time now. I've made a cream ale with an ending SRM less than 2 with this method (see attached photo). I brewed for 25+ years and was never able to get a beer this light with LME and boiling all the extract for the entire length of the boil. It's important to use DME as LME can darken in the can/jug as it slowly oxidizes. Here's a nice article about this Late Malt Extract Additions. I've always added my late addition with 15 minutes left in the boil to get another hot break. I don't think that is necessary though. I just got John Palmers most recent addition of his book, "How to Brew" and he adds it at flameout and lets it sit for 15 minutes with the hop stand. Honestly, either way should work fine.

Wow - that is crystal clear! How do you get it so clear?

 

[DBhomebrew]

I've always added my late addition with 15 minutes left in the boil to get another hot break. I don't think that is necessary though.

Agreed. The manufacturer got the hot break when they made the ME to begin with.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've made a cream ale with an ending SRM less than 2 with this method (see attached photo).

Can you share a recipe (are you using rice syrup solids with the cream ale?) and a brew day process description?

 

[Miraculix]

I do this all the time now. I've made a cream ale with an ending SRM less than 2 with this method (see attached photo). I brewed for 25+ years and was never able to get a beer this light with LME and boiling all the extract for the entire length of the boil. It's important to use DME as LME can darken in the can/jug as it slowly oxidizes. Here's a nice article about this Late Malt Extract Additions. I've always added my late addition with 15 minutes left in the boil to get another hot break. I don't think that is necessary though. I just got John Palmers most recent addition of his book, "How to Brew" and he adds it at flameout and lets it sit for 15 minutes with the hop stand. Honestly, either way should work fine.

I do the hopstand in plain water and then add the DME afterwards. Works perfectly!

 

[kylewag]

Ok, here's my recipe. I was really just doing an experimental batch to see how light I could get it. Also, I was trying to make a Cream Ale version of an American Light Lager so I used enzymes. The enzymes were easy to use, worked perfectly and did what they were supposed to. I had a FG of 1.001. Very simple really. Calculated ABV 4.2%, 101 calories & 5g carbs.

Malts
0.5 lbs. - Pilsen DME @ 60 min.
3 lbs - Pilsen DME @ 15 min.
0.25 lbs. Corn Sugar - 60 min boil.

Hop pellets
1oz - Saaz - 60 min boil
1/2 tablet - Whirlfloc @ 10 min.

Yeast
Safale US-05
Ultra Ferm - amylase enzymes - 10 ml - added at yeast pitch

Fermentation
Ferment @ 66 F for 7 days and increase temp to 70 F for 3-4 days

 

[kylewag]

Wow - that is crystal clear! How do you get it so clear?

I just added 1/2 tablet of Whirlfloc and got a good cold break. It's clear without any cold crash or cold conditioning. I have a Pale Ale that took 2-3 weeks in the fridge to drop clear. This is clear in the bottles at room temperature. BTW - I have a small Torpedo keg and the photo is from the keg but the bottles look the same.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I was really just doing an experimental batch to see how light I could get it.

Very nice result (color and clarity)!

 

[ncbrewer]

I just went from using LME to DME a few months ago. The LME is easy to add late, but the DME was a major PITA. I didn't add the dry powder to the boil (actually the end of the boil) because I keep reading that it clumps up and becomes real hard to handle. I tried mixing the last 3 lbs of DME with one quart of 100F water, but that wasn't enough to dissolve it. So next time I used 2 1/2 quarts of water. That dissolved it ok, but it made for a pretty small volume in the boil. How do you late DME addition brewers add the late extract?

Edit: With LME, the boil was about 2.5 gallons. Less with DME.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

reply withdrawn (see #20).

 

[D.B.Moody]

How do you late DME addition brewers add the late extract?

3 lbs of DME will dissolve just fine in 1/2 gal. of cold water. Just pour it in at the start of the brewing and it will be ready by the time to use it. (I have found this is truer for Muntons than Briess.) I add that half gallon to the 1 1/2 gal of my partial boil at flame out. This brings the temp. to about 170-175 for an aroma hop steep before topping off to 5 gal.

 

[Miraculix]

I just went from using LME to DME a few months ago. The LME is easy to add late, but the DME was a major PITA. I didn't add the dry powder to the boil (actually the end of the boil) because I keep reading that it clumps up and becomes real hard to handle. I tried mixing the last 3 lbs of DME with one quart of 100F water, but that wasn't enough to dissolve it. So next time I used 2 1/2 quarts of water. That dissolved it ok, but it made for a pretty small volume in the boil. How do you late DME addition brewers add the late extract?

Edit: With LME, the boil was about 2.5 gallons. Less with DME.

You do not need to fully dissolve it, clumps are ok. It will dissolve on its own during the next hours, the yeast will find it.

 

[Architect-Dave]

I just went from using LME to DME a few months ago. The LME is easy to add late, but the DME was a major PITA. I didn't add the dry powder to the boil (actually the end of the boil) because I keep reading that it clumps up and becomes real hard to handle. I tried mixing the last 3 lbs of DME with one quart of 100F water, but that wasn't enough to dissolve it. So next time I used 2 1/2 quarts of water. That dissolved it ok, but it made for a pretty small volume in the boil. How do you late DME addition brewers add the late extract?

Edit: With LME, the boil was about 2.5 gallons. Less with DME.

I just use a whisk while adding the DME. I let the DME pour over the whisk while aggressively (but safely) whisking it into the wort. Still get a few clumps, but not may, and they eventually melt away in the boil.

 

[Steveruch]

I just went from using LME to DME a few months ago. The LME is easy to add late, but the DME was a major PITA. I didn't add the dry powder to the boil (actually the end of the boil) because I keep reading that it clumps up and becomes real hard to handle. I tried mixing the last 3 lbs of DME with one quart of 100F water,

When I was doing extract batches I found dme stirred in at 140-150 worked pretty good.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@ncbrewer : with your process for brewing with DME, what benefit do you expect/anticipate from adding DME late in the boil (or at flame-out)?

 

[ncbrewer]

@ncbrewer : with your process for brewing with DME, what benefit do you expect/anticipate from adding DME late in the boil (or at flame-out)?

Conventional wisdom is that there is less darkening of the wort and better hop utilization. But you seem to have done some checking on the darkening issue and found very little effect - probably not even noticeable. IIRC your experiments don’t exactly cover my conditions. If I add all the extract at the beginning, boil gravity would be around 1.095 - so maybe I’ll see some darkening. The hop utilization isn’t a big issue. On my last batch I added all the DME (6 lbs) at the start of the boil. If I’m happy with the results, I’ll just keep doing that, If not, I’ll try one or more of the techniques suggested in this thread.

Thanks for sharing your results with concentrated boils. And thanks to all who made suggestions for late extract addition.

 

[Rish]

How do you late DME addition brewers add the late extract?

When I started brewing I bought kits put together by my LHBS (Alabrew). His instructions were to add extracts at flame out so that's what I've always done with no problems. For dme I slowly add 2 cups at a time while stirring vigorously.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Conventional wisdom is that there is less darkening of the wort and better hop utilization. But you seem to have done some checking on the darkening issue and found very little effect - probably not even noticeable.

With regard to darkening during the boil, I see a small amount of darkening (1-ish SRM) when comparing wort samples taken at start of boil and at end of boil. For me, this is fine as my goal is "color appropriate to style", not "extract as light as all-grain".

So with a full volume 30 minute boil, I can add the DME at 140F-ish and get beer with color appropriate to style.

IIRC your experiments don’t exactly cover my conditions. If I add all the extract at the beginning, boil gravity would be around 1.095 - so maybe I’ll see some darkening.

Correct - my experiments don't cover your conditions. I would anticipate some additional darkening (beyond 1 SRM), but as long as the beer has appropriate color it may not matter. Shorter boils (15 min) should help avoid the darkening (at the cost of more hops).

I have done a couple of 'concentrated boil' experimental batches:

• I brewed a BIAB Amber Ale and a DME Amber Ale (a couple of months later) that were OG 70-ish wort/boil reduced to OG 50-ish in the fermenter. The beers were enjoyable and color was appropriate to style.
• I tried to brew a DME-based split batch IPA (OG 90 & OG 65). One of the split batches failed for reasons outside of the experiment so the final results were inconclusive. Color on the OG 65 batch may have been a little darker than expected.

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There seems to be a stigma associated with concentrated boils with extract.

How much of that stigma can be attributed to concentrated boils with stale LME? to improper wort preparation? to boiling too hard?

Would concentrated boil versions of BBR's Hop Sampler or HomeBrewTalk's "15 min pale ale" offer insights?