Witbier Largaarden Belgian Wit

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BEER-N-BBQ_BY_LARRY

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
60
Reaction score
41
Location
Chicago
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
Belgian Witbier 3944
Yeast Starter
750 mL
Batch Size (Gallons)
5.25
Original Gravity
1.045
Final Gravity
1.012
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
18
Color
pretty
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
14+ @ 63-68 deg F
Tasting Notes
Pretty darn good for Spring and Summer
An updated version of my Hoegaarden clone, Lar-Gaarden, for 2017. New hops, new mash temperature, and an all around better video and recipe all make for an excellent beer and a better viewing experience.

Grain Bill, Adjuncts, & Sugars
Type Qty % of Bill
lb
Pale Malt, Brewers 2-row 5.00 50.0%
Flaked Wheat 4.00 40.0%
Flaked Oats 1.00 10.0%

Hop Bill & Schedule
Species Type Alpha (%) Qty AAU Time (min)
oz
Hallertauer Tradition (German) Pellet 3.8 1.00 3.8 60
Saaz (Czech) Pellet 3.0 1.00 3.0 10

Other Ingredients/Additions Amount Time
Yeast Starter 750 mL Before
Rice Hulls .75 lb Mash
Yeast Nutrient 1 tsp boil begin
Orange Peel, Bitter 1 oz 5 min
Chamomile Tea 3 bags 5 min
Coriander, Cracked 1 oz 5 min

Mash Variables & Steps
Variable/Step Value Units
Ambient Grain Temp 68.0 °F
Desired Mash Temp 150.0 °F
Water/Grist Ratio 1.375 qt/lb
Strike Water to Add 13.8 qt
Strike Water Temp 161.9 °F
# of Steps Required 2
Add for 1st step 6.0 qt
Add for 2nd step 14.7 qt

Expected
Pre-Boil Vol: 28.19 qt
Boil Time: 90 min
Post-Boil Vol: 23.25 qt
Batch Vol: 21 qt
Efficiency: 72.0%
IBUs: 17.29
ABV: 4.4%
App Atten: 74%

Link to full recipe sheet and related data:
'Lar'-gaarden 2017 Recipe Sheet

Link to related video: 'Lar'-gaarden 2017: Belgian Witbier
 
Question for you Larry! I'm considering making an extract version of this, and was wondering how to add the flaked oats and wheat. I figured they would be steeping additions much like adjunct grains. What do you think of the recipe (slight adjustments in amounts to conform to my kit):

Steep:
12oz Flaked Oats
12oz Flakes Wheat

Fermentables:
5.75lbs Ex Light DME

Boil Additions:
0.75oz Hallertauer @60
1.00oz Saaz @10
1.0oz Corriander @5
1.00oz Bitter Peels @5
3 Chamomile @5
 
Steeping the flaked grains is the way to go. My concern is the lack of it since half of the grain bill is flaked grains but are only 1.5 lb here. Won't be similar to my recipe but should still make a decent beer.
Attached are the outputs in PDF from my brewing spreadsheet for your version of the recipe. This forum will not let me attached the original spreadsheet. :(
 

Attachments

  • Belgian Wit - Extract Special Use Case.pdf
    66.8 KB · Views: 70
Ugh! My sincere apologies. I use Beersmith and was targeting the SRM and not noticing the grain bill percentages. (Please accept my apologies for not using your spreadsheet. My access to Excel has been temporarily removed.) What do you think of this adjustment?

Steep:
1.0lbs Flaked Oats
4.0lbs Flaked Wheat


Fermentables:
5.5lbs Ex Light DME

Boil Additions:
0.75oz Hallertauer @60
1.00oz Saaz @10
1.0oz Corriander @5
1.00oz Bitter Peels @5
3 Chamomile @5
 
Last edited:
All you need to really do is swap out the 2 row or an equivalent amount of light DME as shown in the attached ZIP file contain both the PDF and the Excel file.
For my preferred brand of DME (Munton's), the equivalent amount is 4.75 lb.
 

Attachments

  • Laargarden Belgian Wit - Extract.zip
    442 KB · Views: 60
An updated version of my Hoegaarden clone, Lar-Gaarden, for 2017. New hops, new mash temperature, and an all around better video and recipe all make for an excellent beer and a better viewing experience.

Grain Bill, Adjuncts, & Sugars
Type Qty % of Bill
lb
Pale Malt, Brewers 2-row 5.00 50.0%
Flaked Wheat 4.00 40.0%
Flaked Oats 1.00 10.0%

Hop Bill & Schedule
Species Type Alpha (%) Qty AAU Time (min)
oz
Hallertauer Tradition (German) Pellet 3.8 1.00 3.8 60
Saaz (Czech) Pellet 3.0 1.00 3.0 10

Other Ingredients/Additions Amount Time
Yeast Starter 750 mL Before
Rice Hulls .75 lb Mash
Yeast Nutrient 1 tsp boil begin
Orange Peel, Bitter 1 oz 5 min
Chamomile Tea 3 bags 5 min
Coriander, Cracked 1 oz 5 min

Mash Variables & Steps
Variable/Step Value Units
Ambient Grain Temp 68.0 °F
Desired Mash Temp 150.0 °F
Water/Grist Ratio 1.375 qt/lb
Strike Water to Add 13.8 qt
Strike Water Temp 161.9 °F
# of Steps Required 2
Add for 1st step 6.0 qt
Add for 2nd step 14.7 qt

Expected
Pre-Boil Vol: 28.19 qt
Boil Time: 90 min
Post-Boil Vol: 23.25 qt
Batch Vol: 21 qt
Efficiency: 72.0%
IBUs: 17.29
ABV: 4.4%
App Atten: 74%

Link to full recipe sheet and related data:
'Lar'-gaarden 2017 Recipe Sheet

Link to related video: 'Lar'-gaarden 2017: Belgian Witbier

Thank you Larry! I’m going to making the Hopslam this weekend with help from your Utubes.
 
Gave the extract version a go today. I must have messed something up as I ended up with 4.5 gal with an OG of 1.070. I'll keep an eye on fermentation, particularly over the next few days to see if I need to get another yeast pack.
 
Gave the extract version a go today. I must have messed something up as I ended up with 4.5 gal with an OG of 1.070. I'll keep an eye on fermentation, particularly over the next few days to see if I need to get another yeast pack.

In order to get this down to the target gravity you would need to add an additional 2.5 gallons of water to the fermenter. Adding a single gallon of water would take you down to 1.057.

Even with out diluting you shouldn't need additional yeast. Just give it an extra few days. Check the gravity in a week and see where you're at.
 
In order to get this down to the target gravity you would need to add an additional 2.5 gallons of water to the fermenter. Adding a single gallon of water would take you down to 1.057.

Even with out diluting you shouldn't need additional yeast. Just give it an extra few days. Check the gravity in a week and see where you're at.
Many thanks! I got this response in another forum and wonder what you think:

(If) you didn't actually have any diastatic malt in your mash, the flaked grains aren't going to contribute much by way of fermentables, themselves. You really need some kind of proper mash, either full or partial, to use flaked adjuncts. They're not just for flavor, they need enzymes from other grains in order to convert the starches to sugars

This leads me to believe the all-grain version of this beer will always be better.
 
Last edited:
Many thanks! I got this response in another forum and wonder what you think:

(If) you didn't actually have any diastatic malt in your mash, the flaked grains aren't going to contribute much by way of fermentables, themselves. You really need some kind of proper mash, either full or partial, to use flaked adjuncts. They're not just for flavor, they need enzymes from other grains in order to convert the starches to sugars

This leads me to believe the all-grain version of this beer will always be better.
Whoever gave you that advice is spot on!

Any starch containing adjuncts (and many specialty malts) won't do any (or much) good steeped. They need the presence of enzymes (from diastatic malt) which will convert the starches into sugars. So look into doing mini/partial mashes if you want or need to use flaked goods and other adjuncts, or some specialty malts that require mashing.

Now a good Belgian Wit contains a large amount of flaked wheat (~50%), so that means you need a good amount of diastatic base malt too, in order to convert it. So 5 pounds of flaked goods would need around 3 pounds of 2-row (at 120° Lintner) to convert fully. At 8 pounds of grain, that's surely not a small mash, it needs a good size pot or container. You can put the pot of mash in a prewarmed, but turned off oven to keep it's temp better.

Instead you could use wheat extract (LME/DME). Most are 50-65% wheat, the balance being barley. But it doesn't taste the same as a mash from flaked goods.
 
I misunderstood the directions. I'll be sure to give this another go and do it the right way.
Don't worry, just wanted to make you aware of it, understand the mechanism.

And please, don't feel bad, I've seen many extract kits being sold, by reputable companies, containing flaked goods, often flaked oats. Usually only 12-16 oz, but still, they have no business in an extract only kit, or being steeped.

They don't quite harm the beer, they just cause more trub.
If they're packed separately, take em out and cook some porridge from them the next morning.

Also, when mashing, old-fashioned, rolled or (unflavored) instant oats from your supermarket are as good as or better than the ones from your brew store. And usually much cheaper too especially when buying generic.
 
Which recipe did you use?
The 2nd one that contains 4 pounds of flaked wheat and 1 pound of flaked oats or the 1st one, below?

I'm very surprised at the gravity of 1.070 (in 4.5 gallons) you would have gotten with either, though.
Steep:
12oz Flaked Oats
12oz Flakes Wheat


Fermentables:
5.75lbs Ex Light DME

Boil Additions:
0.75oz Hallertauer @60
1.00oz Saaz @10
1.0oz Corriander @5
1.00oz Bitter Peels @5
3 Chamomile @5
Either way, neither yields a Wheat Beer as they should contain at least 50% wheat (in my book). But definitely a beer that can be equally yummy! Especially at your higher gravity of 1.070 than the intended 1.040!

For an extract Wheat Beer you can simply use Wheat DME, instead of Extra Light DME (made from 100% Pilsner malt).

There are many maltsters that make Wheat DME now, you've got some choice and availability.
Most Wheat DME contains 50-65% Wheat (from wheat malt) and the balance of 35-50% in Barley (from 2-row or Pilsner). That's basically all you need. You may fudge a little bit by substituting some Extra Light DME for equal amounts of Wheat DME, to only use full bags of Wheat DME, with none leftover. That should get you a very dedent wheat character, alas without the rawish wheat flavor flaked wheat gives.

Larry must have overlooked those few things when he built the recipe from the ingredients you posted.

Yeast:
Now using the correct yeast is also an important part of the character of Belgian Wits, as are the spice/bitter peel additions. WLP400 or WY3944 are the obvious candidates, there are a few others.
What yeast did you use?

I've never used chamomile in a Wit, but I can see that it adds something subtle that plays well.
 
Which recipe did you use?
The 2nd one that contains 4 pounds of flaked wheat and 1 pound of flaked oats or the 1st one, below?

I'm very surprised at the gravity of 1.070 (in 4.5 gallons) you would have gotten with either, though.

...

Yeast:
Now using the correct yeast is also an important part of the character of Belgian Wits, as are the spice/bitter peel additions. WLP400 or WY3944 are the obvious candidates, there are a few others.
What yeast did you use?

I've never used chamomile in a Wit, but I can see that it adds something subtle that plays well.

I used the second recipe that used 4.75lbs of DME and 5lbs of flaked additions. I, too, was very surprised at the OG and was left wondering if the "thickness" of the wort was keeping the hydrometer afloat in addition to the sugars.

I used WY3944, and it's chugging away as we chat.

Again, I'm looking forward to making an all-grain version of this as I'm confident it's a delicious brew. Moving to extract seems to be an art form all it's own.
 
I used the second recipe that used 4.75lbs of DME and 5lbs of flaked additions. I, too, was very surprised at the OG and was left wondering if the "thickness" of the wort was keeping the hydrometer afloat in addition to the sugars.

I used WY3944, and it's chugging away as we chat.

Again, I'm looking forward to making an all-grain version of this as I'm confident it's a delicious brew. Moving to extract seems to be an art form all it's own.
Yeah, how thick was that? That surely could cause quite some buoyancy, and thus an inflated gravity reading. I would rely on what your malt sugars contributed, and nothing else. Keep us posted on how this progresses and how it tastes. You may have 2 inches of trub on the bottom when all is said and done. 4 pounds of suspended cold porridge starches.

Sure, these styles and recipes are really meant for AG. Save that yeast, and reuse it as often as you want, it only gets better, more character.
 
Yeah, how thick was that? That surely could cause quite some buoyancy, and thus an inflated gravity reading. I would rely on what your malt sugars contributed, and nothing else. Keep us posted on how this progresses and how it tastes. You may have 2 inches of trub on the bottom when all is said and done. 4 pounds of suspended cold porridge starches.

Sure, these styles and recipes are really meant for AG. Save that yeast, and reuse it as often as you want, it only gets better, more character.
Wow. That much gunk at the bottom? I wonder if there’ll be anything I’ll get to drink! Lol!

I haven’t gotten into harvesting yeast yet. I want to move to all grain, then learn to mess with water. THEN I’ll look at saving yeast.
 
Wow. That much gunk at the bottom? I wonder if there’ll be anything I’ll get to drink! Lol!

I haven’t gotten into harvesting yeast yet. I want to move to all grain, then learn to mess with water. THEN I’ll look at saving yeast.
Those flaked wheat starches must end up somewhere, eventually. Add a couple eggs and make pancakes from it. JK!

You can harvest yeast anytime. After kegging or bottling, stir or swirl up the yeast cake to homogenize it, then pour into a large sanitized mason jar, or a few pint size ones. Put lid on and store in fridge. Good sanitation practices are important when handling yeast.
 
I wanted to update the thread. The gunk issue was certainly a problem. After a week on the gas, I couldn't get anything out of the faucet. I had to transfer from the conditioning keg to another and leave about a gallon behind. But, it pours now and is well carbonated and refreshing.

Thanks Larry!! I hope I did it justice. :)



iErAtaH.jpg
 
Hi Larry,

Thanks for posting your recipe and the video, that's great work.

We tried to brew a witbier yesterday with a friend, using your recipe. We did two different batches, slightly modifying the grain bills; except that, all other parameters were the same (please see below).

In both cases we missed the expected OG (calculated by Beersmith; most of the time we hit our beersmith target when we brew other beers), and we wonder what could be the problem. The gap between expected OG and measured OG is especially big for beer2. Have you ever had this missing OG problem with your Witbier? Any idea of what could be the reason?

Beer1 grain bill:
Batch size (23l)
Pale malt 2.61kg (50%)
flaked wheat 2.08kg (40%)
flaked oat 0.52kg (10%)
Strike water 15l + sparge water 18l --> 33l
Expected OG: 1051
Measured OG: 1045

Beer2 grain bill:
Batch size (23l)
Pale malt 2.27kg (50%)
flaked wheat 1.81kg (40%)
flaked oat 0.45kg (10%)
Strike water 16l + sparge water 17l --> 33l
Expected OG: 1045
Measured OG: 1035

For beer1 there was a 10 minutes mash out at 75C
For beer2 there was no mash out.

We both used a Grainfather. Other parameters are the same for both beers (90 min mash a 65.5 // 90 min boiling with a total boiloff of about 3.5l). We did not use rice hull, and the sparge went pretty well. Perhaps even too fast for beer 2, and we suspect sparge water could have gone through a preferential way, rather than through the whole grain cake.

Any suggestions are welcome.
Thanks in advance!
 
It could one of THESE common reasons as described in a recent blog of mine: https://beernbbqbylarry.com/2019/10...ng-recipe-calculators-give-different-results/

I noticed you didn't mention your designed or actual measured extract efficiency which would be a big player in O.G.
I use extract efficiency for recipe design; not brewhouse efficiency which is what Beersmith uses. This is a common area of confusion and cause of this sort of thing that will throw off expected sugar extraction to the lower end as I see above.
Also, the definition of what a "batch size" is along with water losses on the system can diluted or concentrate the sugars thus changing the O.G.

When you used Beersmith to input the recipe, did you adjust the recipe per your brew system and process so that the outputs including O.G. aligned with the original recipe?
 
BEER-N-BBQ_BY_LARRY , thank you for posting your recipe. Looking good . Biére blanche/witbier is one of my favourite.

yeast wyeast 3944

About the spices, the most important is to find some fresh spices.
Coriander seeds, I prefer the dhania variety ( from India ) Coriander seeds from Morroco tastes like ... celery
Dried orange peels. I like to buy the sevilla orange variety ( used for marmalade ) . They are available in december. I keep the peel frozen.

I only use 10 gr ( 1/3 oz ) each for a 20 L ( 5 gallons brew )

Extract recipe : as mentioned he only way is to use diastatic malt extract ( if you can find some )


Don't forget the beta glucans rest 15 minutes at 113F/45C
Rice hull , 5% ( by weight ) of the flaked ingredients

I also brew a tripel witbier. If you live in North America a good example is the "Don de Dieu" from the Canadian brewery Unibroue.

Santé.
 
Hi Larry,

Brewed your 2017 modified recipe about a month ago. Hit all the numbers and took a taste today. It's amazing, and with another week of conditioning will be fantastic. Thanks again for sharing! I really appreciate the work you put into your website and videos, and your willingness to share with the community.

You're awesome.

2020 Laargarden.jpg
 
Hi Larry ! Did your Oatmeal Stout recipe from your live cast with your Brother, I enjoyed the video and it was the Best Stout I ever brewed ! I used your water chemistry and that might be the difference! I have really tried to raise the game with water chem. 4 weeks in the Fermenter and now 3.5 weeks in the keg it just keeps getting better ! Thanks for the Youtube videos I learned a lot and enjoy them !
 
Hi Larry ! Did your Oatmeal Stout recipe from your live cast with your Brother, I enjoyed the video and it was the Best Stout I ever brewed ! I used your water chemistry and that might be the difference! I have really tried to raise the game with water chem. 4 weeks in the Fermenter and now 3.5 weeks in the keg it just keeps getting better ! Thanks for the Youtube videos I learned a lot and enjoy them !
That’s excellent. Glad it turned out great for you. I think oatmeal stout is going to be a regular on my brew schedule.
 
I'm getting ready to do this one... will " Mittelfruh" work for the "Hallertau"? I've never used these hops before and just now learning that there might be several sub varieties of Hallertau and don't yet see a really straight answer on whether they are interchangeable or not.
Thanks.
 
I'm getting ready to do this one... will " Mittelfruh" work for the "Hallertau"? I've never used these hops before and just now learning that there might be several sub varieties of Hallertau and don't yet see a really straight answer on whether they are interchangeable or not.
Thanks.
I just use whatever type the local home brew store has in stock at the time.
 
I'm getting ready to do this one... will " Mittelfruh" work for the "Hallertau"? I've never used these hops before and just now learning that there might be several sub varieties of Hallertau and don't yet see a really straight answer on whether they are interchangeable or not.
Thanks.
Mittlefruh is usually what brewers mean when they say Hallertau (if I'm not mistaken, Hallertau is the German region where they originate). When another Hallertau variety is used, like Tradition, Magnum, Blanc, it is usually stated as such. Mittlefruh is the noble hop of the group. Usually can't go wrong with a noble hop in a continental style!
 
Kegged today at 1.006.
I'm wondering how common that is?
The sample tastes very neutral and light, but also still has a LOT of suspended yeast so we'll see how it is after a few days on the gas.
 
Larry first off love the videos on youtube they have helped me a lot getting into the home brewing scene the past couple of months!

What would your opinions be on substituting out for Tettnang at 60 and Amarillo at 10 or could a 15 minute hop stand of Amarillo work for a Wit instead of the 10 minute boil? Trying to impose a little more spice notes from the Tettnang and more orange characteristics from Amarillo without adding actual spices and more orange peel in.
 
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