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Saccharomyces

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Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
WY3763
Yeast Starter
see notes
Batch Size (Gallons)
11
Original Gravity
1.053
Final Gravity
1.005
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
15
Color
red
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
110 @75
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
360 @75
Tasting Notes
Oak aged, tastes similar to Rodenbach Grand Cru at around 2 years of age
Flanders Red has been my main brewing side project for the last two years. Obsessed with this style, this is my personal pièce de résistance. I am finally happy enough with my recipe and process to post, so here it is.

Grain Bill:
6# German Pils
6# Vienna
4.25# Flaked Corn
2.1# Aromatic
1# Munich
1# Special B
1# Wheat Malt

Infuse to 145*F for 40 minutes, infuse a second time to 162*F for 30 minutes. Decoct to mashout.

Hops:
3.5oz Fuggle (boiled 90 min)

Fermentation:
You need to do two batches. The first batch, pitch a smack pack of Roeselare directly into each 5 gallon fermenter. I primary in plastic for a full 110 days, which allows enough O2 in to ensure the brettanomyces will fully grow and develop. This batch gets racked off to kegs to age, and then I brew another batch and pitch it directly on the yeast cake in the fermenters, adding a new smack pack to each fermenter as well for the saccharomyces yeast. The second batch is considerably more sour than the first, due to a higher population of bacteria in the cake.

The final beer that gets bottled is a blend of the first and second batches, which has the perfect level of sourness. No matter how long you let the first batch age, on its own it will not get sour enough unless you cheat and add lactic acid. By doing two batches the style is nailed without any cheating required. :)

I aged some of this brew in a used whiskey barrel which had mostly lost its flavor. It is the best of the bunch, and is very similar to Rodenbach Grand Cru. I hope to eventually get a 60 gallon wine barrel, and start a solera of this brew in it. I inoculated my barrel with some lambic dregs, which allowed some acetobacter to develop in the barrel. Acetobacter can't grow in a keg, due to lack of O2.
 
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Saccharomyces

Saccharomyces

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I'm not 100% certain about the blend percentage. How much for each batch?
It's about 50/50, to taste. The barrel aged beer got really sour with the acetobacter so it was blended more like 25/75.

Next time I have the kegs out to bottle some more I'll try to remember to grab a pH reading from the first and second batches.
 

Jcoz

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Modified Question:

I see you have primary at 110, 2nd at 360, for a first batch total of 470 days.

Is the process wholly repeated before mixing? So that would basically be 580 Day total?

One other small question, your mash instructions say infuse, but isnt this a step mash? Sorry, I'm a bit new to this.
 
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Saccharomyces

Saccharomyces

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I see you have primary at 110, 2nd at 360, for a first batch total of 470 days.
After about 16 months that's when it's ready.

your mash instructions say infuse, but isnt this a step mash? Sorry, I'm a bit new to this.
It is a step mash. I do double infusion for the steps and then fine tune it in with the RIMS.
 

dcp27

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how big does the yeast cake build up come the second batch? I just started a similar flanders and was thinking of pulling out 2/3 every 6-12months and putting new wort on top of the remainder to just keep a continuous blend til I get sick of it.
 
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Saccharomyces

Saccharomyces

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how big does the yeast cake build up come the second batch? I just started a similar flanders and was thinking of pulling out 2/3 every 6-12months and putting new wort on top of the remainder to just keep a continuous blend til I get sick of it.
After three pitches I had about 1" of slurry. What you are talking about sounds fine, though if you wait that long to pitch you probably want to add some fresh saccharomyces yeast with each pitch since it will all be dead by then.
 
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After finding three 5gal fermentors in a dumpster (they were nasty and needed serious cleaning). I have a perfect setup for doing this recipe. I'm inclined to not go with the Roeselare and go with the East Coast Flemish culture instead if I can get my hands on the mix. I have three of his other yeasts but didn't think to grab the flemish because I had no plans of doing a long term sour beer like this. I have a feeling there will be one or two batches of this made and then the three fermentors will be dedicated to traditional gueze lambic.
 
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Unless your question is directed to the OP I haven't brewed since I found those fermentors almost. I got elbow deep in a patio construction then got hit by all the rain in the north east. I plan on getting one of these in a fermentor very very soon. I have a couple other beers that I'm itching to do so the time will come.
 

humann_brewing

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so how is this beer doing. Have you blended a perfect blend?

I am thinking of trying your ferment in buckets for 100 days and transfer. But just curious if you are transferring even if the pellicle has not dropped and if it has not dropped, are you taking some of that into the keg?
 

humann_brewing

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well 2 buckets filled up with 1.059 wort (I overshot, pre-boil was 1.048) today starts 110 days, I think the next batch I will reduce the grain even more to make sure I get closer to 1.050
 

RDWHAHB

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Brewed the first half of this over the weekend. It went crazy and is blowing off. Didn't expect that with the low yeast count.
 

humann_brewing

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When you rack into the keg for the first batch, is the pellicle dropped out or do you care if it is or not. I am at about 100 days now and I barely have a pellicle going as it has been fairly cold where it's at. I am wondering if I should let it go longer, my only fear is that it is in buckets and I am worried about all the o2.
 

RDWHAHB

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Life got crazy, just now brewing the second half. Boiling now, gravity is way higher than I expected for some reason. Will rack, taste, and test ph of the 1st one.

Do I need to worry about the trub breaking down at all? I tried to minimize what gets in there.

Jeff
 

humann_brewing

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What's going on with these beers? Updates from anyone?
a 50/50 blend did quite well at a comp for me, waiting for the sheets but I know I got a 2nd with it. Still young and in the aging kegs, I just bottled a couple for this comp at a guess of 50/50 blend, I didn't add yeast to the bottles either so there was something in there to eat the sugar :)
 

chrislehr

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Subscribing to this one as well. And you are just north of me?!?!? Any chance you can LMK when your next brew day is? Ill be cleaner/sanitizer helper for a walkthrough on your process :)
 

BigJim_inFLA

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I'll be brewing the first batch of this on Saturday. I'll let everyone know how it turns out in a couple of years! ;)
 

dougdecinces

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I brewed a batch following your instructions on September 2011, and I just cracked open my first bottle. today. Lots of lactic sourness and toastiness. Loads of tannins from the oak give it a full mouthfeel. It's lacking in fruitiness, which is a disappointment, but overall this is a solid beer and I'm glad I made it. I bottled six gallons of this straight, and racked the remaining 4 gallons onto 7 lbs of whole cherries. I'll let you know how that portion is in a few months.
 

Weezy

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I've been doing a lot of planning in the past few months in hopes of starting an oak aged sour batch soon. I really appreciate the methods that you’re using for fermenting and blending. I was hoping I could ask you some questions?

Firstly, I was thinking of fermenting on ale yeast for a few days to get most of the attenuation, cold crash, then start with the bugs. Maybe even keep a gallon carboy of un-soured beer for blending purposes. Your thoughts on this approach would be appreciated.

I have a small oak barrel that I use for flavoring my farmhouse recipe. But it’s a six week turn around, low maintenance affair. When oaking long term, do I need to worry about topping it off to keep the O2 out? Or do you just let it go and just let the natural evaporation happen? Could you give us a bit more detail on your fermentation steps?

Thanks for the input in advance…and for sharing your recipe.
 

dougdecinces

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I'm not the OP, but I would not pitch the ale yeast first. Roselare doesn't have that much character in and of itself. IMO you need to give it all the help you can. As for the oak question, I will yield the floor to someone more knowledgeable.
 

PintoBean

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Brewed this up yesterday (well, a variation on the original recipe that has a lambic grain bill as the base and I did a mini-mash on the side with the specialty grains and corn and blended to get the flanders wort) but pitched ECY 02 - Flemish Ale. Now the wait...
 

dmob29

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Hey Sacc, ever tried throwing 3763 on your Irish Red???

Looking to get a simple sour going and really like this recipe... thoughts?
 

mysteryshrimp

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Hey Sacc, ever tried throwing 3763 on your Irish Red???

Looking to get a simple sour going and really like this recipe... thoughts?

I brewed a red and realized that I had more "raisin" flavor than any oud bruin I'd ever made on purpose, so I finished with Roselare and bottled. I'm happy with it so far.
 

Biophysiker

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I'm new to this style, what's the purpose of the flaked corn in the mash? Sucrose, similar to adding candi sugar?
 
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