Lalbrew Novalager

[Andre3000]

Saw this pop up on my newsfeed:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...yeast-selection-for-modern-lager-beer-styles/
Quick summary:

LalBrew NovaLager™ is a true bottom fermenting Saccharomyces pastorianus hybrid [...] including fast fermentations, high attenuation, and high flocculation. [...] very clean, slight esters over a wide temperature range.

[...] non-GMO breeding methods to obtain a novel Saccharomyces cerevisiae x Saccharomyces eubayanus hybrid strain [...] This strain is a low VDK/diacetyl producer and [...] no hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is produced [...].

Sure seems interesting. I will definitely be giving this a try even though I am generally averse to dry yeasts.

Curious to hear what the yeast nerds have to say .

 

[dmtaylor]

Many more useful links, along with my summation of the things I've read, can be found here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=38571.msg480076#msg480076

 

[bwible]

I like the sound of clean, no hydrogen sulfide, and reduced maturation time.

I would like to see more actual details, such as working temp, attentuation, alcohol tolerance, etc.

The biggest word in that write up that jumps out at me is “biotransformation”. Anywhere we see this word it is usually always associated with NEIPA. Hence the comment in the other thread “but they've already got some recipes on PDF, including not just a friggin' Cold IPA, but a friggin' Hazy Cold IPA.” I’m not a fan but others here will probably love that. Obviously, that probably does not mean the yeast can’t be used for other things.

This just looks like a preliminary write up or a new product announcement. I would like to see more details, and keep an eye on these chat forums and look for any experiments from Brulosophy or others to learn more.

 

[dmtaylor]

There's a lot of links within links above. In a nutshell: Expect this "lager" yeast to not be real neutral in esters, but includes apple esters, which would be buried in a Cold IPA, but might not be great in a traditional lager. But the advantages here for some will be its fast fermentation (faster than Notty), and reasonably clean even fermented in low 60s F (~17 C), no sulfur, and very low diacetyl.

 

[hottpeper13]

Sounds like a split batch between 2565 and this would put an end to is it too fruity for a lager!

 

[Miraculix]

This sounds like my type of yeast. Clean, fast, good flocculation, able to be fermented at room temperature.

I want a pack! Lallemamand! Hear me out! I'm the product tester you've been looking for!

 

[Andre3000]

This sounds like my type of yeast. Clean, fast, good flocculation, able to be fermented at room temperature.

I want a pack! Lallemamand! Hear me out! I'm the product tester you've been looking for!

Website says 500g available now and 11g sachets "coming soon". Hopefully sooner rather than later.

 

[Andre3000]

There's a lot of links within links above. In a nutshell: Expect this "lager" yeast to not be real neutral in esters, but includes apple esters, which would be buried in a Cold IPA, but might not be great in a traditional lager. But the advantages here for some will be its fast fermentation (faster than Notty), and reasonably clean even fermented in low 60s F (~17 C), no sulfur, and very low diacetyl.

Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":
https://escarpmentlabs.com/blogs/resources/the-making-of-krispy-2-0
I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":
https://escarpmentlabs.com/blogs/resources/the-making-of-krispy-2-0
I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.

I'd be surprised if Lallemand has put a yeast out on the market for making lagers commercially that doesn't make beer that has a realistic lager quality. But we'll see. I can't find any info about brewery trials yet with this one, unusually for Lallemand these days.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":
https://escarpmentlabs.com/blogs/resources/the-making-of-krispy-2-0
I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.

You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast. These two are far away from each other.

But you sparked my interest regarding Krispy... Maybe I'll give it a try.

 

[Andre3000]

You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast. These two are far away from each other.

But you sparked my interest regarding Krispy... Maybe I'll give it a try.

You're right, not similar but maybe similar results? Just guessing. I wonder how far Novalager will stray from true lager character. The thing about Krispy is it's remarkably clean at 18C and makes a excellent pseudo lager. You definitely should try it. If I wasn't experimenting with lager yeasts so much I'd use it more.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast.

Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.

Wasn't WLP838 found to be a cervisiae strain though? It's not all neat and tidy is it? And the end justifies the means, in my world at least. I wouldn't know a genome if I swallowed one.

 

[Miraculix]

Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.

I honestly don't know what a "real" lager yeast is. If the result tastes like a lager when fermented at lower temperature, then it's a lager yeast to me.

 

[Protos]

A Lager in 14 days from grain to bottle? Thank you Lallemand, I already have a lot of exactly similar offerings at any corner store.
Prolonged Lagering is not all about just flocculation. It's about substances transformation as well. How do their new yeast manage that part?
I get the point in Lallemand frankensteining the Farmhouse strain (though not impressed with its flavour profile): you make a saisonish beer with it sans accompanying Diastatic troubles. My takeout was Farmhouse being useful just for small breweries which want to add 50 shades of Saisons to their product range but can't afford separate equipment. To a homebrewer, not much advantage: any "real" Saison strain tasted better to me than Farmhouse. However, good or not, Farmhouse is a separate class of yeasts. And what's really new with this new lagery invention?
Won't buy it. Estery unmatured Lager stripped of a tiny bit of Sulphur sounds blasphemy to me.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

A Lager in 14 days from grain to bottle? Thank you Lallemand, I already have a lot of exactly similar offerings at any corner store.
Prolonged Lagering is not all about just flocculation. It's about substances transformation as well. How do their new yeast manage that part?
I get the point in Lallemand frankensteining the Farmhouse strain (though not impressed with its flavour profile): you make a saisonish beer with it sans accompanying Diastatic troubles. My takeout was Farmhouse being useful just for small breweries which want to add 50 shades of Saisons to their product range but can't afford separate equipment. To a homebrewer, not much advantage: any "real" Saison strain tasted better to me than Farmhouse. However, good or not, Farmhouse is a separate class of yeasts. And what's really new with this new lagery invention?
Won't buy it. Estery unmatured Lager stripped of a tiny bit of Sulphur sounds blasphemy to me.

Maybe you're allowing your religion to get in the way of you having a good time?

 

[Protos]

Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.

 

[Miraculix]

Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.

Let's be honest, there's no dry saison strain that really delivers, so I'm not surprised that farmhouse doesn't either.

So implying that a new lager yeast does not deliver purely based on the personnel perception of another yeast from a completely different direction without having tried the actual yeast is a bit... Unfair.

 

[Protos]

That would be really unfair, yes. If I were talking about delivering to people. But I'm talking only and exclusively about delivering to my personal tastes. That's why I said not "Don't buy" but "Won't buy".
God forbid me from generalising, which would look silly. I'm just telling that in my personal book, expectations from yeast engineering currently stand low because my first experience has been uninspiring and the advertisement of the new invention sounds not really "appetising" personally to me.

 

[Miraculix]

That would be really unfair, yes. If I were talking about delivering to people. But I'm talking only and exclusively about delivering to my personal tastes. That's why I said not "Don't buy" but "Won't buy".
God forbid me from generalising, which would look silly. I'm just telling that in my personal book, expectations from yeast engineering currently stand low.

Ok, then I got you wrong.

I happen to have quite the opposite view on lallemand and their products as most of my favourite dry yeasts come from their house. So equally biased I guess, just in the opposite direction.

 

[Protos]

Aha! That's the difference
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.

 

[Miraculix]

Aha! That's the difference
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.

Ok, I should have been clearer. I love Lallemand yeasts if they are mixed within the right proportions. For example Nottingham and verdant 1/1 =killer English strain.

I'm trying Nottingham with London ale 1/2 at the moment which also looks promising in another direction.

Next one will be mj liberty bell ale, to see if I have cracked the mj code and found out which yeasts were the base for their mix (which liberty bell ale probably is).

At the end we actually agree on everything I guess. You preferring the mixed yeasts, me preferring mixing the yeasts.

 

[Miraculix]

Aha! That's the difference
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.

And yes, I agree. I would love to see their answers to your quoted yeasts, too!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.

Fair comments and I agree. They are doing this hybrid stuff for small breweries and their convenience and the advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages for us homebrewers who are wanting the best beer possible. The non-diastatic saison thing is pure convenience. I have bought it. I don't see the point as I never have problems with diastatic versions and I like them. I don't have to clean and sanitise a brewery system.

And I very rarely lagers so Novalager won't be getting a run out either. Any time soon anyway. Lallemand have done some good things though. Verdant IPA for one.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Let's be honest, there's no dry saison strain that really delivers, so I'm not surprised that farmhouse doesn't either.

Off topic, but I have found that Lallemand Farmhouse makes a MUCH better Saison than dry yeast like Belle. Belle is just so boring in my opinion, where at least Farmhouse add some of the Saison character I am looking for. WLP565 is still my go to Saison yeast though.

Lallemand has really been killing it lately with some great dry yeasts. I also seldom make lagers, but there is so little diversity in lager yeasts (vs ale yeasts...or even just vs the subset of Kveik yeasts) that I am glad to see somebody bring a new Lager strain to the market.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Wasn't WLP838 found to be a cervisiae strain though? It's not all neat and tidy is it?

We'll see - my personal suspicion is that the labels got mixed up with it and Ringwood in that case, there's been a couple of cases of that happening in these big sequencing projects. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a single sequence isn't enough for a claim that big. Whereas eg WLP800 being a cerevisiae has lots of evidence behind it.

But no, it's certainly not clean and tidy, people are way more precious about the concept of "lager" than the reality supports.

 

[Slim M]

Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.

I wonder if this something like a dry version of WLP080.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wonder if this something like a dry version of WLP080.

No - it's not a blend, it's a genetic hybrid, classified in a whole new family equivalent to the existing Saaz and Frohberg families of S. pastorianus.

 

[Slim M]

No - it's not a blend, it's a genetic hybrid, classified in a whole new family equivalent to the existing Saaz and Frohberg families of S. pastorianus.

Seen any info on fermentation temps or other details? Went to the link but didn’t see much but sales talk.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Seen any info on fermentation temps or other details? Went to the link but didn’t see much but sales talk.

We talked about it a bit over on the warm-fermented lager thread - specs say 10-20°C (50-68°F).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Here is a link to a paper someone linked on Reddit. I think this yeast is one from that study.

https://journals.asm.org/doi/pdf/10.1128/aem.02434-20

 

[Andre3000]

Just heard back from Lallemand. They're aiming for end of November for homebrew packets of Novalager.

I was pretty happy with their communication.

 

[SanPancho]

I think the only question that matters is what does it taste like? “Unique flavor profile” doesn’t really sound encouraging for a lager yeast hybrid.

guess we gotta wait a while to find out….

 

[ebbelwoi]

Just got this in an email from Lallemand:

 

[ebbelwoi]

That should be Thursday, October 6. The times are correct.

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

Has anyone had a chance to try this yet? I'm sure there is a homebrewer somewhere that is working through a 500g brick.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Looks like Novalager has finally landed in the US in 11g packs. First I'm noticing it at least. Morebeer is the only place I see it so far but I honestly haven't looked that hard. Nothing at my LHBS as of last weekend but I'm sure it will trickle out sooner than later.

I guess it's time to start thinking about how I want to test this out. Maybe a basic SMASH at 60F to see what kind of ester profile it gives. Anybody else have plans for this?

 

[SanPancho]

Looks like Novalager has finally landed in the US in 11g packs. First I'm noticing it at least. Morebeer is the only place I see it so far but I honestly haven't looked that hard. Nothing at my LHBS as of last weekend but I'm sure it will trickle out sooner than later.

I guess it's time to start thinking about how I want to test this out. Maybe a basic SMASH at 60F to see what kind of ester profile it gives. Anybody else have plans for this?

yes.... my plan is to wait for you to post back with results!

i think you're on the right track, although i wouldnt necessarily focus on a smash, but just do something like a basic helles/lager, just some two row or pils, maybe touch of vienna, light touch of a noble/generic hop like saaz, hallertau, tett, etc. shoot for the middle of whatever temp range they're stating on the packet. just a basic, middle of the road light lager, you know? focus on seeing what that yeast has under the hood.

 

[eliastheodosis]

yes.... my plan is to wait for you to post back with results!

i think you're on the right track, although i wouldnt necessarily focus on a smash, but just do something like a basic helles/lager, just some two row or pils, maybe touch of vienna, light touch of a noble/generic hop like saaz, hallertau, tett, etc. shoot for the middle of whatever temp range they're stating on the packet. just a basic, middle of the road light lager, you know? focus on seeing what that yeast has under the hood.

Ha! Not the worst plan I'm kind of running at peak beer at the moment so someone else might beat me to it, though. I'll post back once I have something in a glass.

Thanks for the feedback! You had me at "middle of the road light lager" Not trying to emphasize the SMASH part. Just want to keep it simple to let the yeast talk like you mentioned. I have a helles 7 weeks into lagering that I'll be tapping soon or that's probably what I'd do. My thought was just straight pils malt and then a noble, so we're thinking along the same lines. I've got an open bag of saaz that tasted great in a Czech style pils but it's a little on the spicy side. That potential for apple ester is throwing me off a little. Not sure if "spicy red apple" is the vibe I'm going for here Guess that's the risk, though.

For temp, 60F is very, very easy for me to pull off and it's close to the middle of the range. I want to see what it does for me there. If it throws a bunch of esters at that temp then I'll push it a few degrees lower. If it's still weird in the high 50s then I don't see the benefit for me when I can use Weihenstephan or Augustiner at that temp with pretty decent results.

 

[SanPancho]

Ha! Not the worst plan I'm kind of running at peak beer at the moment so someone else might beat me to it, though. I'll post back once I have something in a glass.

Thanks for the feedback! You had me at "middle of the road light lager" Not trying to emphasize the SMASH part. Just want to keep it simple to let the yeast talk like you mentioned. I have a helles 7 weeks into lagering that I'll be tapping soon or that's probably what I'd do. My thought was just straight pils malt and then a noble, so we're thinking along the same lines. I've got an open bag of saaz that tasted great in a Czech style pils but it's a little on the spicy side. That potential for apple ester is throwing me off a little. Not sure if "spicy red apple" is the vibe I'm going for here Guess that's the risk, though.

For temp, 60F is very, very easy for me to pull off and it's close to the middle of the range. I want to see what it does for me there. If it throws a bunch of esters at that temp then I'll push it a few degrees lower. If it's still weird in the high 50s then I don't see the benefit for me when I can use Weihenstephan or Augustiner at that temp with pretty decent results.

keep your eye out for the "seasonal" releases alot of yeast labs will put out, see if you can get the Andechs strain. i dont think any lab has it on full time basis, but white labs calls it Lager X. that one is super clean and cleans up after itself fast. its hard to find since its mostly seasonal, or in white labs' "vault," but i just make a big ass starter and then freeze a bunch with a little glycerol. i'm at probably 80% success reviving them after freeze.