Lalbrew Novalager

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Andre3000

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Saw this pop up on my newsfeed:


Quick summary:

LalBrew NovaLager™ is a true bottom fermenting Saccharomyces pastorianus hybrid [...] including fast fermentations, high attenuation, and high flocculation. [...] very clean, slight esters over a wide temperature range.

[...] non-GMO breeding methods to obtain a novel Saccharomyces cerevisiae x Saccharomyces eubayanus hybrid strain [...] This strain is a low VDK/diacetyl producer and [...] no hydrogen sulfide (H2S) is produced [...].

Sure seems interesting. I will definitely be giving this a try even though I am generally averse to dry yeasts.

Curious to hear what the yeast nerds have to say 🤓.
 

bwible

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I like the sound of clean, no hydrogen sulfide, and reduced maturation time.

I would like to see more actual details, such as working temp, attentuation, alcohol tolerance, etc.

The biggest word in that write up that jumps out at me is “biotransformation”. Anywhere we see this word it is usually always associated with NEIPA. Hence the comment in the other thread “but they've already got some recipes on PDF, including not just a friggin' Cold IPA, but a friggin' Hazy Cold IPA.” I’m not a fan but others here will probably love that. Obviously, that probably does not mean the yeast can’t be used for other things.

This just looks like a preliminary write up or a new product announcement. I would like to see more details, and keep an eye on these chat forums and look for any experiments from Brulosophy or others to learn more.
 
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dmtaylor

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There's a lot of links within links above. In a nutshell: Expect this "lager" yeast to not be real neutral in esters, but includes apple esters, which would be buried in a Cold IPA, but might not be great in a traditional lager. But the advantages here for some will be its fast fermentation (faster than Notty), and reasonably clean even fermented in low 60s F (~17 C), no sulfur, and very low diacetyl.
 

Miraculix

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This sounds like my type of yeast. Clean, fast, good flocculation, able to be fermented at room temperature.

I want a pack! Lallemamand! Hear me out! I'm the product tester you've been looking for! :D
 
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Andre3000

Andre3000

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This sounds like my type of yeast. Clean, fast, good flocculation, able to be fermented at room temperature.

I want a pack! Lallemamand! Hear me out! I'm the product tester you've been looking for! :D
Website says 500g available now and 11g sachets "coming soon". Hopefully sooner rather than later.
 
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Andre3000

Andre3000

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There's a lot of links within links above. In a nutshell: Expect this "lager" yeast to not be real neutral in esters, but includes apple esters, which would be buried in a Cold IPA, but might not be great in a traditional lager. But the advantages here for some will be its fast fermentation (faster than Notty), and reasonably clean even fermented in low 60s F (~17 C), no sulfur, and very low diacetyl.
Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":

I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.
 

duncan_disorderly

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Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":

I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.
I'd be surprised if Lallemand has put a yeast out on the market for making lagers commercially that doesn't make beer that has a realistic lager quality. But we'll see. I can't find any info about brewery trials yet with this one, unusually for Lallemand these days.
 

Miraculix

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Interesting thoughts.

You've maybe heard of Escarpment up here in Canada; they made Krispy, which is also supposed to be "lager like":

I've used it several times and it does make a nice clean beer for sure. But at the end of the day, it is not a lager.

Sounds like Novalager might be competing in that same space. It'll be interesting to see if it gets closer.
You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast. These two are far away from each other.

But you sparked my interest regarding Krispy... Maybe I'll give it a try.
 
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Andre3000

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You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast. These two are far away from each other.

But you sparked my interest regarding Krispy... Maybe I'll give it a try.
You're right, not similar but maybe similar results? Just guessing. I wonder how far Novalager will stray from true lager character. The thing about Krispy is it's remarkably clean at 18C and makes a excellent pseudo lager. You definitely should try it. If I wasn't experimenting with lager yeasts so much I'd use it more.
 

Northern_Brewer

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You're comparing a kveik which is supposed to ferment between 20 and 30c to a regular lager yeast.
Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.
 

duncan_disorderly

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Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.
Wasn't WLP838 found to be a cervisiae strain though? It's not all neat and tidy is it? And the end justifies the means, in my world at least. I wouldn't know a genome if I swallowed one. 🙂
 

Miraculix

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Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.
I honestly don't know what a "real" lager yeast is. If the result tastes like a lager when fermented at lower temperature, then it's a lager yeast to me.
 

Protos

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A Lager in 14 days from grain to bottle? Thank you Lallemand, I already have a lot of exactly similar offerings at any corner store.
Prolonged Lagering is not all about just flocculation. It's about substances transformation as well. How do their new yeast manage that part?
I get the point in Lallemand frankensteining the Farmhouse strain (though not impressed with its flavour profile): you make a saisonish beer with it sans accompanying Diastatic troubles. My takeout was Farmhouse being useful just for small breweries which want to add 50 shades of Saisons to their product range but can't afford separate equipment. To a homebrewer, not much advantage: any "real" Saison strain tasted better to me than Farmhouse. However, good or not, Farmhouse is a separate class of yeasts. And what's really new with this new lagery invention?
Won't buy it. Estery unmatured Lager stripped of a tiny bit of Sulphur sounds blasphemy to me.
 

duncan_disorderly

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A Lager in 14 days from grain to bottle? Thank you Lallemand, I already have a lot of exactly similar offerings at any corner store.
Prolonged Lagering is not all about just flocculation. It's about substances transformation as well. How do their new yeast manage that part?
I get the point in Lallemand frankensteining the Farmhouse strain (though not impressed with its flavour profile): you make a saisonish beer with it sans accompanying Diastatic troubles. My takeout was Farmhouse being useful just for small breweries which want to add 50 shades of Saisons to their product range but can't afford separate equipment. To a homebrewer, not much advantage: any "real" Saison strain tasted better to me than Farmhouse. However, good or not, Farmhouse is a separate class of yeasts. And what's really new with this new lagery invention?
Won't buy it. Estery unmatured Lager stripped of a tiny bit of Sulphur sounds blasphemy to me.
Maybe you're allowing your religion to get in the way of you having a good time? 😉
 

Protos

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Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers :D
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.
 
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Miraculix

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Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers :D
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.
Let's be honest, there's no dry saison strain that really delivers, so I'm not surprised that farmhouse doesn't either.

So implying that a new lager yeast does not deliver purely based on the personnel perception of another yeast from a completely different direction without having tried the actual yeast is a bit... Unfair.
 

Protos

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That would be really unfair, yes. If I were talking about delivering to people. But I'm talking only and exclusively about delivering to my personal tastes. That's why I said not "Don't buy" but "Won't buy".
God forbid me from generalising, which would look silly. I'm just telling that in my personal book, expectations from yeast engineering currently stand low because my first experience has been uninspiring and the advertisement of the new invention sounds not really "appetising" personally to me.
 

Miraculix

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That would be really unfair, yes. If I were talking about delivering to people. But I'm talking only and exclusively about delivering to my personal tastes. That's why I said not "Don't buy" but "Won't buy".
God forbid me from generalising, which would look silly. I'm just telling that in my personal book, expectations from yeast engineering currently stand low.
Ok, then I got you wrong.

I happen to have quite the opposite view on lallemand and their products as most of my favourite dry yeasts come from their house. So equally biased I guess, just in the opposite direction. :D
 

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Aha! That's the difference :)
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.
 

Miraculix

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Aha! That's the difference :)
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.
Ok, I should have been clearer. I love Lallemand yeasts if they are mixed within the right proportions. For example Nottingham and verdant 1/1 =killer English strain.

I'm trying Nottingham with London ale 1/2 at the moment which also looks promising in another direction.

Next one will be mj liberty bell ale, to see if I have cracked the mj code and found out which yeasts were the base for their mix (which liberty bell ale probably is).

At the end we actually agree on everything I guess. You preferring the mixed yeasts, me preferring mixing the yeasts.
 

Miraculix

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Aha! That's the difference :)
I like MJ versions more than Lallemand's and feel disappointed that instead of offering its long-avaited answers to S-04, BE-134, S-23 and S-189 (all of which would be no doubt superior to the Fermentis products) Lallemand went the way of inventing the wheel which I believe is a wrong direction.
And yes, I agree. I would love to see their answers to your quoted yeasts, too!
 

duncan_disorderly

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Won't deny that. I'm a self-confessed Taliban-level ultratraditionalist when it comes about Lagers :D
But the most part of my scepticism probably comes from my recent Farmhouse experience. The beer came out impeccable in all regards aside that it just tasted fake. Not a real Saison, not a real Weissbier, I don't know where to put it.
Yeast engineering has been proved technically possible, but "artistically"... it seems to be still at its infancy.

Well, it already offers some valuable advantages to small breweries: Diastatic-free "Saison", ultra-fast turnover of Lagers etc. I just doubt those advantages are same important to homebrewers. In my particular Farmhouse case, the underwhelming performance in flavour department far outweighed the insignificant sanitation conveniences.
Fair comments and I agree. They are doing this hybrid stuff for small breweries and their convenience and the advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages for us homebrewers who are wanting the best beer possible. The non-diastatic saison thing is pure convenience. I have bought it. I don't see the point as I never have problems with diastatic versions and I like them. I don't have to clean and sanitise a brewery system.

And I very rarely lagers so Novalager won't be getting a run out either. Any time soon anyway. Lallemand have done some good things though. Verdant IPA for one.
 

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Let's be honest, there's no dry saison strain that really delivers, so I'm not surprised that farmhouse doesn't either.
Off topic, but I have found that Lallemand Farmhouse makes a MUCH better Saison than dry yeast like Belle. Belle is just so boring in my opinion, where at least Farmhouse add some of the Saison character I am looking for. WLP565 is still my go to Saison yeast though.

Lallemand has really been killing it lately with some great dry yeasts. I also seldom make lagers, but there is so little diversity in lager yeasts (vs ale yeasts...or even just vs the subset of Kveik yeasts) that I am glad to see somebody bring a new Lager strain to the market.
 

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Wasn't WLP838 found to be a cervisiae strain though? It's not all neat and tidy is it?
We'll see - my personal suspicion is that the labels got mixed up with it and Ringwood in that case, there's been a couple of cases of that happening in these big sequencing projects. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and a single sequence isn't enough for a claim that big. Whereas eg WLP800 being a cerevisiae has lots of evidence behind it.

But no, it's certainly not clean and tidy, people are way more precious about the concept of "lager" than the reality supports.
 

Slim M

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Except Novolager is not a "true" lager yeast. It's similar, but it has more cervisiae genome in it than traditional pastorianus strains, even if it is a lot more similar to pastorianus than kveiks.
I wonder if this something like a dry version of WLP080.
 

Slim M

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No - it's not a blend, it's a genetic hybrid, classified in a whole new family equivalent to the existing Saaz and Frohberg families of S. pastorianus.
Seen any info on fermentation temps or other details? Went to the link but didn’t see much but sales talk.
 

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I think the only question that matters is what does it taste like? “Unique flavor profile” doesn’t really sound encouraging for a lager yeast hybrid.

guess we gotta wait a while to find out….
 

ebbelwoi

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Just got this in an email from Lallemand:

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