Lager yeast at Ale temps

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frazier

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Help me understand this idea.

Of course I know what it means in the literal sense. But I need to get my head around the concept. I'm aiming at a 1554 clone attempt, and I understand they use this technique. But, why?

1. Why not use an ale yeast at ale temps?
2. If the lager yeast is important, why not do a proper low-temp fermentation?
3. What other recipes or styles do this?
4. What yeasts are good for this? The AHS kit for 1554 recommends WLP838, Southern German Lager Yeast.

Any discussion would be helpful. Thanks!
 

Beerbeque

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Anchor brewing originally used lager yeast for their steam beer that was fermented at ale temps out of necessity. See the Wikipedia article on steam beer. May be some insight for you there.
 

Edcculus

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1. Why not use an ale yeast at ale temps?
If you used ale yeast at normal ale temps, the beer would be too fruity
Higher temps create more esters.
Lager yeasts create less esters, no matter what temp they are fremented at.
Fermenting lager yeasts in the 60's will produce some fruity esters, but not as much as an ale yeast.

2. If the lager yeast is important, why not do a proper low-temp fermentation?
The beer is not a true lager in that it doesn't have an extremely squeaky clean lager like yeast character. Its the flavor profile you get from fermenting a lager yeast at ale temps that is important.

3. What other recipes or styles do this?
Steam Beer (California Common) is the biggest one. When a beer uses one style yeast at another styles temperature, its called a hybrid. There are other hybrids the opposite way like Kolsch and Altbier which use an ale yeast at cooler temps.

4. What yeasts are good for this? The AHS kit for 1554 recommends WLP838, Southern German Lager Yeast.
Never brewed it, but if the Austin Homebrew kit recommends it, I'd say thats a pretty good bet.
 

Bret86944

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For what it's worth, I just made a Continental Pilsner and fermented it at room temp (it's supposed to be lagered) and it came out just fine. I really like it.
 

fredthecat

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1. Why not use an ale yeast at ale temps?
If you used ale yeast at normal ale temps, the beer would be too fruity
Higher temps create more esters.
Lager yeasts create less esters, no matter what temp they are fremented at.
Fermenting lager yeasts in the 60's will produce some fruity esters, but not as much as an ale yeast.

3. What other recipes or styles do this?
Steam Beer (California Common) is the biggest one. When a beer uses one style yeast at another styles temperature, its called a hybrid. There are other hybrids the opposite way like Kolsch and Altbier which use an ale yeast at cooler temps.

hmm, would an altbier made with a lager yeast in the low-mid 60s make sense then? im making an alt right now and have pretty weak temperature controls, but used S-05
 

Bret86944

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what yeast did you use??
I used whatever yeast came in the Brewer's Best kit. Here is a link to the info on the kit: Brewer's Best Continental Pilsner. Unfortunately on the ingredients list, it just shows "1 Sachet" of yeast.

This was my first homebrew so I couldn't tell you what subtle differences it made, I just know that I liked it and my friends did too. It was very easy to drink.
 

Saccharomyces

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Lager yeast at ale temps will produce some phenolics which are different than esters (they are spicy rather than fruity) and provide much of the character of many belgian beers.

I say give it a try and see how it turns out.
 

Edcculus

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Lager yeast at ale temps will produce some phenolics which are different than esters (they are spicy rather than fruity) and provide much of the character of many belgian beers.
I'm not saying your wrong, because I don't know for sure. Are you completely sure of that? Are you saying Belgian beers use lager yeast at ale temps? I thought all belgian yeasts were ale yeasts... All of the hybrid beers in the BJCP guidelines that use lager yeasts at ale temps describe mild esters, but never any phenolics.
 

IPAndrew

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I used whatever yeast came in the Brewer's Best kit. Here is a link to the info on the kit: Brewer's Best Continental Pilsner. Unfortunately on the ingredients list, it just shows "1 Sachet" of yeast.

This was my first homebrew so I couldn't tell you what subtle differences it made, I just know that I liked it and my friends did too. It was very easy to drink.
I have that kit as well and am unable to lager it... It said to rack it to a secondary fermenter if possible. Did you do this?
 

Bret86944

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I have that kit as well and am unable to lager it... It said to rack it to a secondary fermenter if possible. Did you do this?
No, I didn't rack to secondary. Since I didn't lager there was no point. It still came out well.
 

IPAndrew

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No, I didn't rack to secondary. Since I didn't lager there was no point. It still came out well.
Sorry but another question...this is my first time brewing and it isn't really clear on how long it should ferment for. How long did you wait?/What told you it was ready?
 

Bret86944

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Sorry but another question...this is my first time brewing and it isn't really clear on how long it should ferment for. How long did you wait?/What told you it was ready?
I let it ferment for 2 weeks. I heard a couple places that was how long it needed. I used a hydrometer though, to make sure it was done. After about two weeks I took a reading. Then waited a day or so, and took another reading. The readings were the same which meant it stopped fermenting. Do you have a hydrometer? If not I would recommend waiting at least three weeks becuase not all beer ferment at the same rate.
 

rayg

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Why bother with different strains of yeast? Because the metabolic
byproducts (and there are a bazillion of them) are different, and by
different I mean the amount of each one is different and therefore
each gives a different flavor profile, sometimes the difference is
obvious and sometimes it's subtle. For a given yeast strain, the temperature
of the fermentation also changes the amount of each byproduct,
so changing temps is a way to get more variety out of a single strain.
You just have to try a particular yeast at a particular temperature to
see if it gives you the results that you like.

Ray
 

IPAndrew

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I let it ferment for 2 weeks. I heard a couple places that was how long it needed. I used a hydrometer though, to make sure it was done. After about two weeks I took a reading. Then waited a day or so, and took another reading. The readings were the same which meant it stopped fermenting. Do you have a hydrometer? If not I would recommend waiting at least three weeks becuase not all beer ferment at the same rate.
Thanks. I own a hydrometer...I just wanted to know if I should bother opening it to test it after one week.
 
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