Lager Frustration

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

I have been brewing for many years now. In this time, I have only had one succesful lager attempt. My last three have come out tasting phenolic. I step mash using mostly pilsner. My water is RO and I have controlled ferm temps in the low/mid 50's. Yeast was WLP802 (http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp802-czech-budejovice-lager-yeast?s=homebrew). Starter made prior but last attempt I pitched two vials due to time constraints. I have done a diacetyl rest but it is very difficult to control the temp climb of 1-2 degrees each day. The swing has been closer to 4 degrees until reaching 70 and resting for three days. Latest brew was tapped yesterday and tasted like plastic, medicinal. Thought I picked up the off flavor in last hydro taster before kegging but still lagered for two months. Has anyone else had this problem and how do I get over the lager hurdle?

 

[Yooper]

I have been brewing for many years now. In this time, I have only had one succesful lager attempt. My last three have come out tasting phenolic. I step mash using mostly pilsner. My water is RO and I have controlled ferm temps in the low/mid 50's. Yeast was WLP802 (http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp802-czech-budejovice-lager-yeast?s=homebrew). Starter made prior but last attempt I pitched two vials due to time constraints. I have done a diacetyl rest but it is very difficult to control the temp climb of 1-2 degrees each day. The swing has been closer to 4 degrees until reaching 70 and resting for three days. Latest brew was tapped yesterday and tasted like plastic, medicinal. Thought I picked up the off flavor in last hydro taster before kegging but still lagered for two months. Has anyone else had this problem and how do I get over the lager hurdle?

Usually, unwanted phenols come from two places- chlorine in the brewing water (or cleaners), and infection.

Since neither of these are likely (a contaminated starter set up is ruled out if you've not done one!) I'm really having to give this some thought.

What type of phenols are you tasting? Smoky? Band-aid? Clove? Astringent?

If it's a astringency/tannin type of phenol (polyphenol), that can come from mashing (too high pH) or oversparging.

Yeast stress can cause phenolic flavors, too, and it could be underpitching or pitching too warm and then cooling.

 

[Yooper]

Another thought I had- when you step mash, what are your temperatures and lengths of time? It's a wild guess, but is it possible that you are accidentally doing a ferrulic acid rest instead of a higher temperature protein rest?

 

[duboman]

My guess is yeast stress and underpitching. If you are typically only pitching two vials or making a small starter then it might not be enough causing the yeast to stress.

Are you using a calculator like http://www.mrmalty or http://www.yeastcalc.com and selecting a lager style? Also, as Yooper asked, are you pitching at the proper temperature meaning colder?

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Yooper:
I mashed at 120x20 min, 140x20 min 154x20 min. I did not oversparge as I have my system dialed in grain to water ratios for typical 1.06 OG. The taste is more medicinal and plastic. Band-Aid is probably closest to your examples. Typical of the last two dumpers as well so my errors are somehwere in my process. I manufacture tap handles for several breweries in SD SoCal so I am going to get an opinion from some of the brewers. I would be more than happy to send you a bottle if you are open to it? I'll also send you a bomber of my chocolate cream ale that is on point!

For whatever reason, lagers have been my greatest challenge thus far. I make yeast starters but have also resorted to just pitching two vials in a pinch. When brewing ales, I time my brew days so I can just pitch onto prior yeast cake. This last lager attempt, I pitched at 68 degrees and dropped into my ferm chamber. Next morning. the temp was at 54. It took three days to achieve visible fermentation. Several weeks with a full head of krausen. I cannot control my temps by more than 3-4 degrees due to the controller (dial type--no readout). I would bring into question sanitation but my ales, porters and stouts finish out excellent and to much fanfare. I'm really bummed because this was going to be my Thanksgiving Beer for multi family camping trip.

Duboman: I am going to take a long hard look at Mr.Malty. Never used it but am going to this next time.

 

[duboman]

Cool! Keep at it, you'll get one going and yes, check those calculators, I think you might be surprised at how much more yeast is required.

Also, I know it's tough to get things cold but if you can get your pitch colder and allow the temp to self rise it would also be beneficial-cheers!

 

[Yooper]

I think duboman was on point there, with underpitching being a likely culprit.

For example, a 1.060 OG lager with relatively fresh yeast (October 15) would require a 15 liter starter without a stir plate! With a stir plate, only a 6L starter. Without a starter, 6 packages of yeast would be needed. That is probably the issue. That, and pitching too warm. Next time, chill the wort to 45 degrees or so, and then pitch and allow the temperature to raise to 50 degrees. That gives the best lager, in my opinion.

I'm also concerned about your step mash/rest schedule. You are very close to a ferulic acid rest temperature there, especially if your mash pH is a little high, and then a low-ish first saccrification rest.

I'd skip the lower temperature rest, and either do a single infusion mash or a decoction and do a higher protein rest if you insist on doing one- say 131 degrees.

While I appreciate the offer to sample, I'll take your word on "band-aids"!

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Cool! Keep at it, you'll get one going and yes, check those calculators, I think you might be surprised at how much more yeast is required.

Also, I know it's tough to get things cold but if you can get your pitch colder and allow the temp to self rise it would also be beneficial-cheers!

I never thought to bring pitch temp down to lager ferm temp. I always thought that the higher temp would help to get things started. Maybe stressing out the yeast right at pitching?

 

[Yooper]

I never thought to bring pitch temp down to lager ferm temp. I always thought that the higher temp would help to get things started. Maybe stressing out the yeast right at pitching?

Yes, definitely.

Do you pitch your ales at 80 degrees, and then bring them down to 65? No? If you do, you shouldn't but I know some ale brewers do that and the results are less than stellar in my opinion.

Think about this- most of the yeast's esters and other flavor profiles are set in the first 24 hours, during the reproductive (lag) stage and sometimes the beer can be fairly actively fermenting before it ever reaches desired fermentation temperatures. Even following the directions on the White Labs vial say something like "Pitch at 75, and reduce the temperature when there are signs of active fermentation". Well, by the time someone gets to 50 degrees from an active fermentation at 75, fermentation is probably over so I consider that the worst advice on yeast pitching!

Yeast hate being cooled- but they love being warmed (a little anthopomophic, I know) and so pitching slightly below fermentation temperature and allowing it to rise up to optimum temperatures seem to make a healthy and active fermentation, with very clean flavor and little to no excess diacetyl production (depending on yeast strain).

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

I usually pitch at 68 for most ales. I have pitched higher but usually during summer months. I have a stir plate but have not used it for lagers as I believe that I would have to keep it inside my ferm chamber to propogate yeast under ideal conditions. I am going to get a starter going on this next lager attempt. I'll be sure to document it. I think my pitch rates and temp was the problem. I imagine that lagers require more yeast cells due to the colder temperature? I certainly do not want to spend $50 on (6) WL vials. I am also going back to the single infusion mash. I tried something different as a result of the prior attempts having gone south.

 

[Yooper]

I usually pitch at 68 for most ales. I have pitched higher but usually during summer months. I have a stir plate but have not used it for lagers as I believe that I would have to keep it inside my ferm chamber to propogate yeast under ideal conditions. I am going to get a starter going on this next lager attempt. I'll be sure to document it. I think my pitch rates and temp was the problem. I imagine that lagers require more yeast cells due to the colder temperature? I certainly do not want to spend $50 on (6) WL vials. I am also going back to the single infusion mash. I tried something different as a result of the prior attempts having gone south.

You can make your starters at room temperature- after all, you're growing yeast, not making beer, and yeast grow and reproduce faster at room temperatures.

Yes, lagers require a higher pitching rate due to the cooler temperature.

A single infusion mash is almost always appropriate, as almost all of the malts we get are well modified. Once you get a great lager with a single infusion mash, you can always go to step mashing or even decoctions if you think there would be an advantage to doing so.

 

[SpeedYellow]

You're problem isn't limited to underpitching -- even if you simply pitch 2 vials, the fermentation shouldn't take several weeks. 3-4 perhaps. (With a proper amount, it'll take 7-10 days) So you have a larger issue with either yeast health or happiness. I'm going with unhappy yeast -- by pitching warm them dropping the temps so much overnight, you're putting the yeast to sleep. Yeast don't like this at all!! Like Yooper said, pitch at 45-50, at or below your fermentation temp. And your next question will be: wait, pitch warm yeast into 45f wort? Answer is NO! The yeast would crap out. Best way is to finish the starter, then toss into the fridge for a few days to let the yeast settle. Then at pitching time, pull it out of the fridge, decant the beer off the yeast, and pitch your cold yeast into your slightly warmer wort.

 

[SpeedYellow]

By the way, I'm not 100% convinced your problem is even the yeast, although that's an area needling your improvement. Make absolutely sure your RO water is chlorine and chloramine free. This is much much much more important than pitching rates. And what's your mineral profile? Hopefully you're adding CaCl or CaSO4 for calcium. And what about mash pH? Hopefully you're adding some acid malt or lactic/phosphoric acid to the mash.

I'd also suggest just an infusion mash, which really is perfectly fine for lagers. Just to eliminate that variable.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

You're problem isn't limited to underpitching -- even if you simply pitch 2 vials, the fermentation shouldn't take several weeks. 3-4 perhaps. (With a proper amount, it'll take 7-10 days) So you have a larger issue with either yeast health or happiness. I'm going with unhappy yeast -- by pitching warm them dropping the temps so much overnight, you're putting the yeast to sleep. Yeast don't like this at all!! Like Yooper said, pitch at 45-50, at or below your fermentation temp. And your next question will be: wait, pitch warm yeast into 45f wort? Answer is NO! The yeast would crap out. Best way is to finish the starter, then toss into the fridge for a few days to let the yeast settle. Then at pitching time, pull it out of the fridge, decant the beer off the yeast, and pitch your cold yeast into your slightly warmer wort.

I pitched two vials at 68 degrees. I set into my ferm chamber that has already been pre set to 55 degrees. I see the logic in that the yeast may go dormant but this lager strain is well suited to colder temps. I did not see active fermentaiton in the last batch for a period of two days. When I checked on it at day three, full head of krausen and bubbling away for the next ten days. I usually let my brew sit for 3 weeks as I have been re using the yeast cake for the next batch. I am gathering as much info as I can so as to make a universal change with favorable results. No, I have not added much in the way of salts or other minerals. I do add a teaspoon of something to the strike water to control mash PH but do not have it in front of me right now. Looks like tiny little white balls. Acid malt on occasion but never more than 3-5%. The RO water I buy is from an establishment, so without testing, I do not know the facts if less than advertised. Chlorine/chloramine were said to be near non existent. The water taste good and results in very good ales. After reviewing the response today, I am going to put together a plan for proper pitch rate and temps. Will most likely bring wort down to 45-50 in the ferm chamber prior to pitching. Will keep yeast at the same 45-50 temp until pithcing.

 

[flatlanderHQ]

Pitching on top of old yeast cake, also a questionable practice, especially considering your pitching method. It seems to me you would be pitching stressed yeast on top of an already stressed cake.

 

[tennesseean_87]

CaCl looks like little white balls. Also, pitching a standard ale on a whole yeast-cake is overpitching, and not the best practice (trying a 1.120 Barleywine on a whole cake might be different). On the other hand, lagers need such big starters, you might try brewing up a quick 2 gallon batch from extract, then pitching a full batch on that cake with a full batch.

 

[Cyclman]

Lots of good advice, make a huge starter (I like Mrmalty, always use a stirplate), pitch below fermentation temperature, but also, how well are you aerating? For lagers, O2 injection is very helpful. In the starter and in the wort.

Lots of yeast, good oxygen levels, and yeast nutrient all make for good lager fermentation. A week or two, tops indicate healthy fermentation in my experience.

Dicacetyl rests finish up fermentation and help hit FG.

Lagers are definitely more difficult, but IMO are highly rewarding. My fastest dissapearing beers are my lagers. Gonna start a few soon, it's the season!

Good luck.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

Pitching on top of old yeast cake, also a questionable practice, especially considering your pitching method. It seems to me you would be pitching stressed yeast on top of an already stressed cake.

Only using this method, with great success, on my ales using mostly WL005 and WY1272. I've never tried this with lager yeast.

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

CaCl looks like little white balls. Also, pitching a standard ale on a whole yeast-cake is overpitching, and not the best practice (trying a 1.120 Barleywine on a whole cake might be different). On the other hand, lagers need such big starters, you might try brewing up a quick 2 gallon batch from extract, then pitching a full batch on that cake with a full batch.

Never experienced any off flavors and have had great success. Fermentation is almost spontaneous. I do not pitch onto yeast cake more than one time. I wash out a mason jar worth of yeast after the second batch and use it to make future starters. Try to cut cost whenever I can. After all the money thrown into equipment, it's nice to only spend $20 on grain and hops for each brew.

I may try your suggestion. It's also alot easier, emotionally, to lose two gallons.

-James

 

[HeavyKettleBrewing]

So, I am meeting up with Owner/Brewer of a local brewery this Saturday. He is going to sample my lager in hopes of limiting some variables. He seems to think it is infection from my description. Hard for me to think that each batch of lager has been infected without the 20+ ales being affected in the same manner. My sanitation regimen is pretty thorough. I will update you all on his advice/opinion.

 

[g-star]

Never experienced any off flavors and have had great success. Fermentation is almost spontaneous. I do not pitch onto yeast cake more than one time.

Pitching onto your entire yeast cake is almost never a good idea, and near spontaneous fermentation is also deleterious towards flavor profile:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/why-not-pitch-your-yeast-cake-166221/

Lager brewing is not nearly as forgiving as ale brewing. To put it gently, your past practices indicate that you have quite a bit to learn if you want to achieve success in this arena. Keep in mind for a great lager you will need:

-Massive starters of the healthiest possible yeast
-Pure oxygen (air won't cut it)
-Cold pitch (45 - 48F)
-Precisely controlled fermentation temp (50F).

Follow these steps with established recipes and great sanitation practices, and you will have yourself a great lager.