Lactobacillus Plantarum temp tolerance

[monksretreat]

Don't bother, your cold-side equipment is already "contaminated". It'll be ok. I don't think a clean beer with hops could really be infected by plantarum.

Thanks, I feel like I'm in uncharted territory now, what happens, will happen. I see the advantages of keeping it in the kettle... including splashing wort. I did a bit of this.

If I don't reboil then won't the sourness continue after pitching yeast?

 

[Kealia]

I plan on reboiling mine. The only reason I won't sour in my kettle is because I can't hold a temp in it once I pitch the lacto.

Keep in mind that I am working on my first kettle sour as well so I can't tell you if you can skip the second boil or not - but I'm not going to (skip it).

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I don't reboil then won't the sourness continue after pitching yeast?

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

Boiling is optional but lowers risk of infection. The last Berliner I made wasn't boiled at all.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

The yogurt came out great. 95f for 12 hours

 

[toddo97]

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

Boiling is optional but lowers risk of infection. The last Berliner I made wasn't boiled at all.

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it? I did a smoked BW last week and mashed at 152 with a 180 degree mashout. Then a 45 minute boil 3 days later. I would be really nervous never bringing it to boil!

 

[dstockwell]

What are the Goodbelly things I have read about? Are those available at grocery stores? What exactly am I looking for there?

I did my first kettle sour with Goodbelly Mango, it's at Publix in yogurt section. After mashing, boiled for like 2 minutes to pasteurize, chilled to 95F, then pitched 16 oz of Goodbelly mango, and left a room temp for 36 hours. Then boiled as normal with 1/2 ounce Nelson Savuin at 15 minutes, and 1 oz at 2 minutes. Wort going in fermenter seemed sour enough so will have to see. Pitched Wyeast 1332 NW Ale, so should be a 6% kind of fruity tart.

 

[cactusgarrett]

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it?

After souring, instead of your 45min boil you would either just toss in your sacc to start the fermentation, or you could bring the temp up to ~180°F for pasteurization before chilling and pitching sacc. If someone was set on doing a no-boil, raising to pasteurization temps is insurance. Could even use it to impart hop characteristics without as much bittering as a standard boil... similar to a whirlpool/hopstand step.

 

[toddo97]

After souring, instead of your 45min boil you would either just toss in your sacc to start the fermentation, or you could bring the temp up to ~180°F for pasteurization before chilling and pitching sacc. If someone was set on doing a no-boil, raising to pasteurization temps is insurance. Could even use it to impart hop characteristics without as much bittering as a standard boil... similar to a whirlpool/hopstand step.

That's interesting--if nothing else, it would drop your cooling time. I might have to try that next time.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What steps did you go through for this and how hot did you get it?

Mash. Mash-out at 170°F. Chill.
Pre-acidify to 4-4.5.
Pitch bacteria & wait.
I pulled a small "decoction" after souring to add hops.
Pitch yeast & wait. Bottle.
Still deciding if it's better than a normal kettle sour. Follow this thread if you want updates.

 

[cactusgarrett]

if nothing else, it would drop your cooling time.

It would save boiling time, as well as reduce the amount of wort lost to evaporation. Both seem trivial, but not for those who chose to care about it. Me? I like the insurance, so I perform at LEAST a 10min boil - allows me to sterilize then use my wort chiller at least.

 

[monksretreat]

So Im getting ready to either pitch yeast or do that 2nd boil! Moving the wort around its sort of a concern but I could not sour in the kettle.

Lacto reach a point where they stop producing lactic acid, when the pH drops to approx 3.0-3.4.

The reason people leave it in the kettle to sour is to prevent the live bacteria from touching the cold side equipment and unintentionally sour future batches.

If racking back to Stainless kettle, wasn't understanding this risk as its coming to boil anyways and I could sterilize after use if needed?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If racking back to Stainless kettle, wasn't understanding this risk as its coming to boil anyways and I could sterilize after use if needed?

Rinsing your cold-side equipment in bacteria increases the likelihood that a few cells will survive your sanitizing.
Leaving it in the kettle is preferred because everything touched by the bacteria is boiled.

If you step up your cleaning and sanitation processes I think it's fine. Many people keep separate cold-side equipment that contacts bacteria and Brett/wild yeast. Depends on your comfort level.

 

[cmac62]

Learning some more about good belly is a good thing.

Started my first sour yesterday using GB, rather than do it in the kettle I decided to moved it into a fermentor with airlock.

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

Have you already boiled the wort? My understanding of kettle sours is that the lacto is put in before it is boiled and when the right amount of sourness is reached the wort is then boiled as usual, whick kills the lacto and sterilizes the wort. Then you chill and pitch like regular. If you don't kill the lacto it will keep going. I'm no expert for sure, but this is what I plan to do.

 

[monksretreat]

Have you already boiled the wort?

It smells like Mango GB but Soured so it must be time.

No boil - its been decided! now its now up to the starter (Saison) to take it from here. Ive lowered it from 90 to 80 degrees.

 

[cactusgarrett]

If you don't kill the lacto it will keep going.

Sort of. There's a bottom limit that it'll reach before it peters out (like RPh_Guy said, it's around pH 3.0), or hops usage will inhibit lactic acid production.

 

[monksretreat]

it's around pH 3.0), or hops usage will inhibit lactic acid productio

Am I right to assume that the souring slows once yeast is introduced?

I'm thinking of transferring to secondary in a couple days to dry hop (possibly adding brett in as well).

 

[cactusgarrett]

There's good info here. As I understand it, the souring slows more as a result of the low pH and presence of hops, not due to sacc fermentation, since lacto is tolerant of higher alcohol levels. If active lacto is left in a no-boil wort when sacc is pitched, it sounds like it'll continue until its basement of pH is hit.