Lactobacillus in cider

[johnnyjumpup]

Has anyone here tried using Lactobacillus in their cider? What did you think?
I think I'm going to go for it with my next batch, but would love a few reviews of other people's results if such exists.

Cheers

 

[Bluespark]

Like the bacteria used in producing fermented pickles? Unless I'm totally off here, that's a horrible idea. Lacto fermenting grows bacteria that produce acid. Brewing uses yeasts that produce co2 and alcohol. They aren't really friends.

 

[johnnyjumpup]

Correct, same guys. That's what I would think too, but I've recently been introduced to sour beer which is colonized by wild yeast, lactobacc, and many others. The flavors and aromas aren't for everyone (vinegary and musky) but, being a fan of funky things in general, I find them very pleasurable. I only really brew cider, so I'm interested in emulating this style with something of a "sour" cider.
If you haven't tried a sour beer by the way, I recommend Monk's Cafe- the only one I've had so far, but man its good.

 

[CRock303]

At Colorado Cider Company we soured a cherry cider with lactobacillus just recently for a experimental batch. It worked out pretty well and the lacto was introduced post fermentation, took a while to age out that might have been the brandy barrel it was aged in though. I'm not 100% sure on all the details because I'm don't work on fermentation, but that's what I can tell you about it.

 

[gregbathurst]

Lactobacillis won't make cider more acidic, but less. It can convert malic acid to lactic acid (MLF) which reduces the acidity and sourness. If you buy a MLF culture it is usually oenococcus but lactobacillis will do the same thing.
Beer and cider are quite different, you can't expect to get the same results for both.

 

[Bluespark]

Well you learn something new every day....


I've been lacto fermenting forever, just never thought it had a place in brewing

 

[LeBreton]

MLF is somewhat common in English style ciders, which are mainly comprised of bittersharp apples. It's primarily used as a sequential fermentation during the aging process as in wine production, ie added after the sugars and converted to alcohol by your regular yeast. Not sure what you're apple blend is but I would hesitate to put most American ciders through a MLF since the typically higher levels of malic acid and aromas (while conversely having less structure and body than their old world counterparts) are somewhat defining characteristics. Once that malic acid is converted to lactic acid you may find that the cider is now too dull for such a light body, resulting is a swampy product.

That being said, I've also been meaning to try a MLF cider. I say go for it.

And if you like funky drinks, consider using Brettanomyces.

 

[johnnyjumpup]

Thanks, that's great to know! Any idea how long you guys aged it for?

 

[johnnyjumpup]

Thanks for the perspective LeBreton. Any idea what I should expect if I give Brettanomyces a try?

 

[LeBreton]

Thanks for the perspective LeBreton. Any idea what I should expect if I give Brettanomyces a try?

When done right, a Brett cider should result in a somewhat sour, very pungent cider with emphasized apple body blending with a musty smokey hay and barnyard notes. Damn delicious IMO.

Lacto can add body to cider, but won't exactly give a 'sour' taste like it does in beer. Rather, a heavily MLF cider can end up somewhat flabby like an overly oaked chardonnay.

 

[johnnyjumpup]

Great! Any tips for using Brett- when to add, what in needs in terms of nutrients and time, etc?

 

[CRock303]

I think our cider aged for about 4 months on the Lacto, mostly because the brandy flavors were super harsh early on and the cherry puree didn't want to come out. Like I said I don't make the cider there just do the tasting room and help out bottling part time so this information is from talking to our ciderer (that's now a word) and watching him do his job. I do get to taste everything though and it turned out great.

 

[LeBreton]

Great! Any tips for using Brett- when to add, what in needs in terms of nutrients and time, etc?

Depends on just how funky you want it to be. A complete Brett ferment would be too much IMO, but if you ferment to 75%-95% completion with a normal yeast then inoculate with your Brett strain to finish up you should be just about there. The sooner you add the Brett the funkier it will be.

 

[Halbrust]

Depends on just how funky you want it to be. A complete Brett ferment would be too much IMO, but if you ferment to 75%-95% completion with a normal yeast then inoculate with your Brett strain to finish up you should be just about there. The sooner you add the Brett the funkier it will be.

I just read that an all Brett beer wont have the funk. That the Brett funk only appears when Brett is added after primary fermentation.

Is that wrong? Or is it just different in ciders?

 

[LeBreton]

I just read that an all Brett beer wont have the funk. That the Brett funk only appears when Brett is added after primary fermentation.

Is that wrong? Or is it just different in ciders?

Hal, to be honest, I've never had a 100% Brett cider nor even seen such a thing in my travels. But in my experience, both for sequential controlled fermentations as well as more rustic style French ciders where the 'wild' ferment is a localized blend of Saccharomyces and Brett that the earlier/greater Brett influence is directly related to the colony size and the amount of time they have had to work. This is consistent with what I have experienced with infections in the commercial cider and wine industries.

I would find it unlikely that a full on Brettanomyces fermentation would not exhibit the funk in cider, and would chalk it up to differences between wines and beers as I simply don't know enough about beer to call it wrong or right.

That being said, Brett characteristics do mellow with age. We have a cider at work which was inoculated with Brett with ~1brix of sugar left. Was offensive for well over a year, simply bad from years 2-3, finally drinkable after 4, and now in the 4.5-5 range is rather nice for the educated palate.

 

[johnnyjumpup]

Brilliant! Thanks again LeBreton and CRock303!