Lactobacillus and Brettanomyces question

[jjangmes]

Hey guys, I have a question on using lactobacillus and brettanomyces.

In the past, I experimented using lactobacillus by mixing with a bit of yeast and fermenting at 37 C. This led to around 3% alcohol and EXTREMELY TANGY and SOUR stuff just after ~3 days.
Then I heated it up to kill of all lactobacillus and yeast. Cooled it. And pitched in more yeast. I let it ferment at 25 C and alcohol came up to be around 5%...

I tried some. Very sour and "weird". I let it sit for a couple of days, and I noticed they started developing pellicles. Maybe brettanomyces? So I took some bugs and started incubating them in separate jars.

Okay. So finally the questions..

1. Sour beer: Are most sour beer's sourness from brettanomyces or lactobacillus?

2. In order to "save time", can I brew in 37C with lactobacillus to bring up lactic acid level, heat it, then pitch it with brettanomyces to make sour beer? I live in Korea right now and can get my hands on only one sour beer: Duchess de Bourgogne... so I'm having a hard time thinking what a sour beer should taste like..!!!

3. Brettanomyces: If I use only pure brett for full fermentation, could I finish the fermentation in 3 months? And can I age them in carboys? Not oak barrels?

4. Can Brett survive after lactobacillus basically takes over the whole fermentor?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Hopinista]

Just get a pack of Wyeast Roselare. Has regular yeast, lacto, brett, and pedio. Makes a great sour without you having to worry about heating or anything

 

[JBIII]

1) Yes and no. Most sours are created using a variety of different yeast and bacteria strains. So...lactobacillus does create a good portion of the sourness in sour beers, although not exclusively.

2) If your objective is to produce a sour beer and save time, then Hopinista's suggestion is the best...just use Wyeast Roeselare or the White Labs equivalent

3)Yes, but...to truly get the Brett characteristics to come through in your beer most people say 6 to 8 months minimum. However, if you want to stop fermentation at 3 months you can do so by pulling the beer of the yeast cake and cold conditioning. Yes you can age it in a carboy. No you don't have to age in oak barrels.

4) Yes...

 

[milldoggy]

Brett does not sour, only funk, bacteria sour.

 

[chad_]

Lacto and pedio contribute the vast majority, if not all of the sourness. Brett will eat the left over sugars of primary fermentation (if used with a regular sach yeast). Brett also creates a funk from the yeasts esters. So if you want a Belgian style sour, you use brett lacto sach and pedio and age it for over a year. If you want it done sooner, look at sour mashing on the forum.

 

[Calder]

Lacto is what soured your beer. If you can't get a 'bug' mix, you can do a lot with lacto.

You can sour with Lacto before adding yeast to make a quick sour (not as complex as a traditional sour, but is how Berliner Weisse is made). Sour with lacto for a few days at temperature, then cool to normal temps and pitch yeast. Make sure you pitch a lot of yeast as the low PH (high acidity) is hostile to yeast.

Brett provides interesting flavors, but doesn't sour beers. Brett as the only yeast will give a lot of esters, mainly fruity. Brett used as a secondary yeast will give more rustic or 'funky' flavors.

 

[jjangmes]

Just get a pack of Wyeast Roselare. Has regular yeast, lacto, brett, and pedio. Makes a great sour without you having to worry about heating or anything

I'd love to get some mixed package. But I'm living in Korea and I can't get any of those stuff Only thing I can get my hands on are lactobacillus and sacch. cerevisiae guys.

I've been leaving the fermentors opened to get some wild bugs in, collect the samples, plate them, and try to get Bretts... not sure what I have are Bretts though.

 

[jjangmes]

1) Yes and no. Most sours are created using a variety of different yeast and bacteria strains. So...lactobacillus does create a good portion of the sourness in sour beers, although not exclusively.

2) If your objective is to produce a sour beer and save time, then Hopinista's suggestion is the best...just use Wyeast Roeselare or the White Labs equivalent

3)Yes, but...to truly get the Brett characteristics to come through in your beer most people say 6 to 8 months minimum. However, if you want to stop fermentation at 3 months you can do so by pulling the beer of the yeast cake and cold conditioning. Yes you can age it in a carboy. No you don't have to age in oak barrels.

4) Yes...

Thanks for the answer!

Glad to know that brett can survive extremely acidic condition.

 

[jjangmes]

Brett does not sour, only funk, bacteria sour.

Now I know... Wish I knew about it earlier.

So for the 100% Brett beer, do they have no sour taste?

 

[Hopinista]

Now I know... Wish I knew about it earlier.

So for the 100% Brett beer, do they have no sour taste?

No, they might get a slight tart taste but they don't produce sour flavors. Think dry funk, that is brett.

 

[jjangmes]

here are some images of what I've been growing..
They have a very strong nail polish smell..!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/101495311@N06/12426351325/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101495311@N06/12426827094/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/101495311@N06/12426504163/