Lactic Acid addition help

[benstetson]

Doing AG BIAB, wanting to adjust my mash PH but reading around can't find a definite answer.

I know that different style beer will affect where my PH is and what it needs to be adjusted to based on my water profile. Using PH strips, test mash at room temp? Then what would be the ratio to add for lactic acid? say .1 PH adjustment lower? I'm reading all kinds of different values.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rev2010]

Then what would be the ratio to add for lactic acid? say .1 PH adjustment lower? I'm reading all kinds of different values.

There is no set value since it will depend on your grain bill, volume, etc. You can use this calculator to help you out in the future:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator

If in doubt, use less rather than more, it's strong stuff and you're better off with a slightly higher than recommended pH than a lower than recommended one. Also, pH strips are really not recommended but they're better than nothing. A meter is really what would want to be using. You also will want to get a water report done as without it you really won't be able to use the calculator or Bru'n Water properly.


Rev.

 

[Gavin C]

Doing AG BIAB, wanting to adjust my mash PH but reading around can't find a definite answer.

I know that different style beer will affect where my PH is and what it needs to be adjusted to based on my water profile. Using PH strips, test mash at room temp? Then what would be the ratio to add for lactic acid? say .1 PH adjustment lower? I'm reading all kinds of different values.

Thanks in advance.

You will need to measure the mash pH when it has stabilized. This can take quite some time ~30 minutes is a decent estimate. At that point adjusting the pH is pointless.

if you adjust earlier in the mash you will over correct as the measured ph will be higher than a later reading

pH strips are worthless. They do not provide anywhere close to the required accuracy you need if you are planning mash ph measurement.

All mash pH adjustments should be preplanned and made with acid in the strike water at the outset. Another way, which is what I do, is to incorporate acidulated malt in my grainbill as needed targeting a planned pH.

Making pH adjustments on the fly during a mash is not possible to do with any level of accuracy as once you know the uncorrected mash pH it's too late to adjust it to be effective as the bulk of the enzyme mediated reactions have already taken place.

• The place to start is knowing the mineral content and pH of the water you are using.
  
• Plugging this water, its volume and the grain-bill into a predictive tool (Bru'n water is great) to get an estimated mash pH.
  
• Plan acid adjustments/mash dilution as needed
  
• Carry out the planned mash and measure the mash pH with a correctly calibrated meter that has an acceptable level of accuracy and stability. (no strips or cheapo meters should be considered)
  
• Record the difference between planned and actual pH
  
• Make adjustments to the acid addition accordingly in future mashes.
  
• Over time, planned and measured mash pH will be very similar.

 

[BigRedBrewer]

EZ Water calculator is a great tool and I can get really close with it .

For most mashes with light color grains I find 2ml to be a typical amount to get me down to 5.2.

 

[Rev2010]

For most mashes with light color grains I find 2ml to be a typical amount to get me down to 5.2.

And for my water with very pale beers I typically need 4ml or close to it, and that's with me shooting for my usual 5.3. Without knowing his water report he'll just be taking shots in the dark. And even having the report it can still vary so a pH meter is pretty essential. This way he can use a Calc to predict the mash pH and then test with the meter and make adjustments for future batches.


Rev.

 

[BigRedBrewer]

And for my water with very pale beers I typically need 4ml or close to it, and that's with me shooting for my usual 5.3. Without knowing his water report he'll just be taking shots in the dark. And even having the report it can still vary so a pH meter is pretty essential. This way he can use a Calc to predict the mash pH and then test with the meter and make adjustments for future batches.


Rev.

100% agree. Wouldn't be able to say for sure unless i had the water report, volumes, weights, and grain types. Ph meter is a great investment, and a decent one can be found for $50-$60. However, using EZ water calculator, I get real close, and my Ph meter is really only used to confirm the measurement. After Brewing the same recipe a few times, you sshould be able to nail your mash ph.

 

[Rev2010]

However, using EZ water calculator, I get real close, and my Ph meter is really only used to confirm the measurement. After Brewing the same recipe a few times, you sshould be able to nail your mash ph.

Do you input any water information into the calc? For me, I started using my municipal water report which got me close. The problem with my municipal report is they check ranges then reported the maximum detected range rather than an average. There were times I would just use the GH & KH from BrewersFriend and it would suggest higher than I thought reasonable lactic additions. I'd play cautious and usually use 1-1.5ml less and hit my mash target, just from past experience using my meter. If I used what it said I would've been under 5.2. That's when I finally got around to sending in a sample to Ward Labs. Now putting my numbers in the calc, all the water and grain info, and my estimates are right on point. I highly recommend everyone to just do it now, get the damn water report, your beers will improve noticeably as a result!


Rev.

 

[benstetson]

All mash pH adjustments should be preplanned and made with acid in the strike water at the outset.

Making pH adjustments on the fly during a mash is not possible to do with any level of accuracy as once you know the uncorrected mash pH it's too late to adjust it to be effective as the bulk of the enzyme mediated reactions have already taken place.

[*]Record the difference between planned and actual pH
[*]Make adjustments to the acid addition accordingly in future mashes.
[*]Over time, planned and measured mash pH will be very similar.

EZ Water calculator is a great tool and I can get really close with it .
For most mashes with light color grains I find 2ml to be a typical amount to get me down to 5.2.

And for my water with very pale beers I typically need 4ml or close to it, and that's with me shooting for my usual 5.3. Without knowing his water report he'll just be taking shots in the dark. And even having the report it can still vary so a pH meter is pretty essential. This way he can use a Calc to predict the mash pH and then test with the meter and make adjustments for future batches. Rev.

Thanks everyone for you responses, this is exactly what I was looking for. I used a few other calculators but was getting off numbers. Off probably cuz using BIAB, but EZ Calculator seems to give 5ml based on my city water report based on very pale 6.0 SRM. I'll probably go 4ml. Was looking to see the "typical batch 2ml, 4ml etc" from someone. Other calculator was saying .25ml..?

Grain Bill:
4lbs 2 row
4lbs white wheat
1 lb outs
.5 lb carawheat

I did a lighter ale and got a chalk off flavor, but my very dark ale tastes fine so PH. Been brewing a long time but switched to AG about a year ago. New house now and diff water. I'm Army so pay to test water then move kind of sucks. Have to decide if I want 'good beer' or 'great beer'.

Which kit should I get if I want to test?
*W-5A Brewer's / Water Test Kit :
*W-5 Household Complete Mineral Test Kit :
*W-6 Household Mineral Test Kit :

Again, thanks everyone. Don't think, Drink.

 

[IslandLizard]

Realize, a water test is a snapshot. If the water source changes composition, so can your drinking water. You can call your water company and ask for the mineral composition of your domestic water supply (the water coming to your home). They have the data, extensively, but it gets rarely published if at all, since it's not a requirement. You can also ask about (seasonal) fluctuations, and changes due to shortages and droughts.

If you decide to get the Ward test, get the cheaper one, W-6 Household Mineral Test Kit for $21. Send them the sample, don't order the "kit." W-6 doesn't include the Iron and Phosphorous analysis the Brewer's test (W-5a) does, but unless you have reason to believe these minerals are abundant, there's no need to test for them.

Regarding your acid demand, that depends on the alkalinity of your water. Your grist also plays a role, but is usually minor.

To really investigate your mash pH do test mashes with half a pound of your grist mix, honing in on the acid you need to add, before committing to the whole batch. You do need a decent pH meter for that. If your water composition is known, you can pretty much rely on EZ-Water or Bru'n Water's calcs after entering your grist.
Homebrewing involves dealing with a large set of changing variables that may or may not cancel each other (partially) out, and combined, may have a much larger influence than a .1 pH mash difference would cause.

Taste, have others taste, and use common sense.

 

[benstetson]

You're right, those test strips are crap.... thanks for all the help guys.

 

[BigRedBrewer]

Do you input any water information into the calc? For me, I started using my municipal water report which got me close. The problem with my municipal report is they check ranges then reported the maximum detected range rather than an average. There were times I would just use the GH & KH from BrewersFriend and it would suggest higher than I thought reasonable lactic additions. I'd play cautious and usually use 1-1.5ml less and hit my mash target, just from past experience using my meter. If I used what it said I would've been under 5.2. That's when I finally got around to sending in a sample to Ward Labs. Now putting my numbers in the calc, all the water and grain info, and my estimates are right on point. I highly recommend everyone to just do it now, get the damn water report, your beers will improve noticeably as a result!


Rev.

I started using bottled water a few years ago to remove those variables. At first I was using distilled water, but something wasn't right so I switched to spring water since it still has all the micronutrients in tact, and very little ca/so/cl/na/mg. Arrowhead spring water posts a water report on line, so I used those numbers in conjunction with the water salts I add to get to my target water profile. I don't really do anything crazy anymore, usually just add some CaCl and Gypsum, different ratios depending on beer style.

So what I enter into the calculator is my calculated water profile with the additional salts added. I only treat the mash water, nothing else. I've tried many different combos with that. Treating mash/sparge/kettle, just mash, etc. I now just do the mash water.

 

[benstetson]

Got my water profile from Ward Labs. Got my PH and lactic acid additions nailed down. I've used gypsum for my heavy IPA's but

Question, when I'm shooting for a balanced water profile for example a Wit using Brewers Friend to calculate am I thinking this correct that I would need to use gypsum, chalk, and calcium chloride to push my numbers in the right zones? It seems I would need to use all of them or even something else. Thanks in advance.

PH 7
Sodium, Na 36
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 17
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 68
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.9 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 5
Chloride, Cl 66
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 47
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 38

 

[rmyurick]

Question, when I'm shooting for a balanced water profile for example a Wit using Brewers Friend to calculate am I thinking this correct that I would need to use gypsum, chalk, and calcium chloride to push my numbers in the right zones?

That's the general idea, but you probably don't need all three. Probably key is to get the Ca a little higher by adding some small amount of gypsum and CaCl2. Multiply the "SO4 as S" by 4 to get SO4 concentration.

 

[Yooper]

Never use chalk- never, ever, never. Unless you're coloring on the sidewalk.

Chalk doesn't dissolve properly, without extraneous measures (like bubbling c02 through the water that you're trying to add it to), so don't even try.

You can add alkalinity if needed to bring your mash pH up (the purpose of the chalk), if needed but only if you remove the acids and still need to adjust the pH upward, which would be unheard of in a beer like a wit. You may rarely need to add some alkalinity, in the form of baking soda or pickling lime, but that would be only in the case of a very dark beer with lots of roasted grains in RO water or something similar to that.

It wouldn't make a bit of sense to add acid to bring the pH down, and then add alkalinity to bring the pH up.