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Kviek Octoberfest

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Jloewe

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Is there a strand of Kviek that might make a good Octoberfest? I’m in a small apartment and have no temp control
Or lager equipment.
 

derekp83

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Lallemand Voss Kveik is worth a shot. Made a good cream ale with it. Without lagering, you're using an ale yeast for a traditionally lagered beer anyway, so it's not going to be the same, but with good ingredients and the usual expectations of proper sanitation, I think you'll make a tasty amber beer.
 
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Jloewe

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Good I have a packet of that on hand
 

derekp83

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If you end up using it, please keep us posted and let us know the recipe.
 
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Jloewe

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I will. It will actually just be an extract kit. But I’m interested to see how it might turn out.
 

Ogilthorpe2

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I have a Octoberfest-ish ale in primary now. I used Omega Kviek Lutra..


...I’ve never used it before, but it’s claimed to be an ideal yeast for a pseudo-lager.
 

Elric

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Or you could warm ferment with 34/70 which is a lager yeast but thrives at ale yeast fermentation temps.
 

NGD

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Of the kviek yeasts, Lutra would give a more balanced profile. If your apartment is fairly cool (mid 70-low 80’s) and you pitch a whole pack for 5 gallons then the Voss should ferment pretty clean as well.
 

NGD

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Most Kveik yeasts attenuate to much for something like a Marzën/Oktoberfest. Of the Kveiks I’m familiar with and are fairly available in the U.S.A, Lutra would be my first choice and ferment in the lower end of the range.
 

Ogilthorpe2

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Most Kveik yeasts attenuate to much for something like a Marzën/Oktoberfest. Of the Kveiks I’m familiar with and are fairly available in the U.S.A, Lutra would be my first choice and ferment in the lower end of the range.
Thanks for the response. Just kegged my Lutra pseudo-Oktoberfest yesterday, and From the sample I took, it looks Promising. I did ferment it at the very bottom of the range (@68F).

I put a couple of psi on it and am letting it cold condition for a week or so before I start carbing.
 

z-bob

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I think Voss would work. However, the last few brews I've done with it have all taken a *long* time to bottle condition. Perhaps because it drops so clear when it's done there's not much yeast left, and then the bottles are stored cooler than it likes (70-ish) But they do carbonate eventually. My last one was a cream ale and it's nice and neutral. And the yeast sticks to the bottle so you can get a clean pour.

I've never heard of Lutra before. Will look it up.
 

Vale71

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Have you tried the Lutra?
No ale yeast can even come close to a true clean lager profile. Of all the lager yeasts a Kveik yeast is probably the worst possible choice.
If it makes you feel better to call a beer "Octoberfest" then by all means do it, but let's be honest and stop pretending it tastes like something it doesn't even remotely come close to.
 

Vale71

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Have you used all the kveik to make pseudo lagers? There are stains that ferment cleanly without a lot of esters.
I prefer actual lagers to pseudo ones. Why settle for less if you can have the real thing? ;)
 

Hoppy2bmerry

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I prefer actual lagers to pseudo ones. Why settle for less if you can have the real thing? ;)
The question you answered was not asking for your preference. But rather, is it possible to brew an Oktoberfest with kveik that is close to a traditional one. So unless you have experience experimenting with the yeast in question, or you’ve done a blind taste test and can identify the ale yeast brewed fest bier with accuracy then your quick “no“ is your opinion based on what you think you know.
For someone with no temp control, brewing a good lager is arduous if even possible at all, and that is the point of the question, after all,:) Is it not?
 

VikeMan

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WLP800 is not an ale yeast. Those genetic studies are all over the place as far as identification goes.
Can you point to a genetic study that says it's pastorianus?
 

NGD

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I think Voss would work. However, the last few brews I've done with it have all taken a *long* time to bottle condition. Perhaps because it drops so clear when it's done there's not much yeast left, and then the bottles are stored cooler than it likes (70-ish) But they do carbonate eventually. My last one was a cream ale and it's nice and neutral. And the yeast sticks to the bottle so you can get a clean pour.

I've never heard of Lutra before. Will look it up.
Your experience is pretty different than mine using Voss. One of the reaons I didn’t recommend Voss is the amount of orange/citrus esters I get. I have yet to ferment it below 80 which I’ve heard of instances of it fermenting quite clean. I have few bottles of a Imperial Saison I made over a year ago, aged in a fridge for at least a year that are still cloudy/chill haze. I’d love to have a technique for it to drop clear reliably.
 

Vale71

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Because some people don’t have the proper Equipment to be able to lager and still want to create a reasonable facsimile of a popular seasonal beer style?
I was talking specifically about myself and I do have the proper equipment to lager.
If you don't have it then it's fine, it's nothing to be ashamed of. But why pretend you can brew something simililar that is in reality anything but? Does calling it what it is, i.e. a Kveik ale, somehow detract from the experience?
 

Vale71

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Can you point to a genetic study that says it's pastorianus?
According to the same study that claims it's cerevisiae it also can ferment melibiose. It would be the first known cerevisiae strain that can do that and I don't see any publication supporting this claim. Those so called "identifications" have already been shuffled around so many times that they have lost plenty of credibility. When there are such huge discrepancies between the genetic data and its phenotypic expression the results are really too questionable to be taken at face value.
 

VikeMan

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According to the same study that claims it's cerevisiae it also can ferment melibiose. It would be the first known cerevisiae strain that can do that and I don't see any publication supporting this claim. Those so called "identifications" have already been shuffled around so many times that they have lost plenty of credibility. When there are such huge discrepancies between the genetic data and its phenotypic expression the results are really too questionable to be taken at face value.
Are you talking about the Gallone study? Or the stuff in this post (post #1) by @sykesey? :

There's also this post where a guy you may know referenced information that WLP800 (or something supposed to be WLP800) does not use melibiose:

ETA: meant to include this one also, pointing to Ale:
 
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Jayjay1976

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Since Lutra has been mentioned I thought I'd add my experiences with this strain. 2 weeks ago I brewed a session-strength pseudo lager at 1.042, pitched the Lutra at 90f and it finished out in about 3 days at room temp of 72f. Last Sunday I kegged the session beer and brewed a 1.070 NEIPA, racking it onto the Lutra yeast cake; the airlock was bubbling actively within 30 minutes, by 18 hours the kraeusen had subsided, and at the 24 hour mark the airlock was only bubbling once every ~90 seconds or so. This could have been on tap a day or two later, grain-to-glass in just 3 days. If speed and clean flavors are your goals, building up a big starter with Lutra might be just the ticket.

As for flavors, the session beer turned out really good and clean, not quite as malty as a pilsner but its a light and easy drinking beer and quite tasty.
 

Ogilthorpe2

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I was talking specifically about myself and I do have the proper equipment to lager.
If you don't have it then it's fine, it's nothing to be ashamed of. But why pretend you can brew something simililar that is in reality anything but? Does calling it what it is, i.e. a Kveik ale, somehow detract from the experience?
Seems needlessly nit picky to me, but to be fair, I’ve been referring to mine as an Oktoberfest-ish Ale.

Traditional Oktoberfest Style Marzen grain bill and hops with the Lutra yeast, fermented at the bottom of the recommended temp range.
 

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Is fermenting melibiose a distinction without a difference? Serious question. (today is the first time I'd heard of melibiose) That is a defining characteristic of true lager yeasts, but how much melibiose is there in malt?

I have some old but not too old packets of W34/70 to use this winter when the corner of my basement is cold enough for lagering. Next spring I may try that Lutra stuff, it sounds interesting. :)
 

Brettomomyces

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Since Lutra has been mentioned I thought I'd add my experiences with this strain. 2 weeks ago I brewed a session-strength pseudo lager at 1.042, pitched the Lutra at 90f and it finished out in about 3 days at room temp of 72f. Last Sunday I kegged the session beer and brewed a 1.070 NEIPA, racking it onto the Lutra yeast cake; the airlock was bubbling actively within 30 minutes, by 18 hours the kraeusen had subsided, and at the 24 hour mark the airlock was only bubbling once every ~90 seconds or so. This could have been on tap a day or two later, grain-to-glass in just 3 days. If speed and clean flavors are your goals, building up a big starter with Lutra might be just the ticket.

As for flavors, the session beer turned out really good and clean, not quite as malty as a pilsner but its a light and easy drinking beer and quite tasty.
At some point I'd like to see if I could get a kveik style beer into a keg after 24 hrs with big enough pitch and warm temps. The biggest time crunch would be chilling from ferm temps to serving.
 

Jayjay1976

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At some point I'd like to see if I could get a kveik style beer into a keg after 24 hrs with big enough pitch and warm temps. The biggest time crunch would be chilling from ferm temps to serving.
Bah, use a spunding valve to carbonate as it ferments, use a floating pickup tube to avoid the yeast cake and dispense it at ferm temps through a jockey box. Grain to glass in 24 hours.
 

Vale71

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Is fermenting melibiose a distinction without a difference? Serious question. (today is the first time I'd heard of melibiose) That is a defining characteristic of true lager yeasts, but how much melibiose is there in malt?
0% but that's not the point. The ability to ferment melibiose is a known and universally accepted expression of pastorianus yeast. As a matter of fact, the melibiose test is still the standard test to check for possible cross-contamination of a brewery's yeast stock. An identification based on genetic data that contradicts that is therefore rather questionable and should not be taken at face value, especially considering that gene sequencing is as of today still a bit more complicated than just slipping in a sample and pushing a button.
 

DrinkFresh

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Since Lutra has been mentioned I thought I'd add my experiences with this strain. 2 weeks ago I brewed a session-strength pseudo lager at 1.042, pitched the Lutra at 90f and it finished out in about 3 days at room temp of 72f. Last Sunday I kegged the session beer and brewed a 1.070 NEIPA, racking it onto the Lutra yeast cake; the airlock was bubbling actively within 30 minutes, by 18 hours the kraeusen had subsided, and at the 24 hour mark the airlock was only bubbling once every ~90 seconds or so. This could have been on tap a day or two later, grain-to-glass in just 3 days. If speed and clean flavors are your goals, building up a big starter with Lutra might be just the ticket.

As for flavors, the session beer turned out really good and clean, not quite as malty as a pilsner but its a light and easy drinking beer and quite tasty.
Nice! Let us know when you keg that NEIPA and quite interested in how it turns out.

I quite like that idea of building a "starter" from brewing a clean session beer (pseudo lager) with Kveik then brewing a high gravity beer (double IPA) to rack on the previous brew's yeast cake, and was thinking of doing a similar schedule. Sounds like you'd get to turn around two batches of beer pretty quick and then have a couple of options on tap! I've just always been nervous racking new wort directly on the previous brew's yeast cake, but always wanted to try.

Do you have any pointers with this process? For example, how much did you pitch with Lutra? Did you have to double your yeast nutrient? Cheers
 

Jayjay1976

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Nice! Let us know when you keg that NEIPA and quite interested in how it turns out.

I quite like that idea of building a "starter" from brewing a clean session beer (pseudo lager) with Kveik then brewing a high gravity beer (double IPA) to rack on the previous brew's yeast cake, and was thinking of doing a similar schedule. Sounds like you'd get to turn around two batches of beer pretty quick and then have a couple of options on tap! I've just always been nervous racking new wort directly on the previous brew's yeast cake, but always wanted to try.

Do you have any pointers with this process? For example, how much did you pitch with Lutra? Did you have to double your yeast nutrient? Cheers
Sanitation is important, other than that no need for any special steps to pitch onto a yeast cake. If the starter beer's flavor or color are drastically different than the follow up batch, you'll want to drain off as much as you can while leaving most of the yeast behind. In my case, the session beer was an extract batch so there was less trub in the fermenter; the yeast cake and beer left behind were maybe 2 quarts total.

I didn't bother with nutrients or oxygenating either batch just to see how simple and carefree this Lutra strain can be. The session beer turned out well though at 1.042 its a bit light for my taste, next time it will be at least 1.048.

I'll report back on the NEIPA when I get around to kegging it. Wish I could have done that more promptly but it was a busy week.
 
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