Kveik and Cider

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blasterooni

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I have been listening to podcasts and watching videos talking about Kveik strains, however, at best there is a but a slight mention of cider while the rest of the talk is about beer. How do I approach using Kveik strains with cider? Do I go with the beer approach and bottle or keg when the cider reaches the desired FG? Do I age it? Bottle age or leave it the carboy?

The Kveik strains sure are interesting, they are fast, the beer needs little to no aging (you know the whole grain to glass in 3-4 days thing). But does this apply to cider? I am aim to find out. Today, I bottled about 2.5 gallons of cider that had reached a FG of 1.001 fermented with opshaug, and siphoned the rest into a 3 gallon carboy for kegging later. The kveik tradition is no carbing, so the bottles will be whatever they end up with 1 gravity point left. I will force carb the remainder and see what I think ( I have force carbed both voss and opshaig in the recent past, but I want to do real comparison between the two from the same batch). I plan to age the bottles.

The questions I want to answer for myself are as follows:
!) will underpitching end up expressing the estery flavors in a cider as they are touted to in beer? So far, my ciders end up tasting really clean and crisp, definitely not complaining, but I'm not so sure about the mango, or citrusy notes that are supposed to come with the kveik strains. Maybe I don't have a talented palate...
2) Can it finish, that is, be totally drinkable as though aged when it reaches target FG without aging? My experience thus far says yes for both Voss and Opshaug. But I wonder what others would think, others that know what to look for in a cider
3) How much effect will fermentation temperature have on the cider? High temps in the upper 90's to 104F, vs upper 80-'s low 90's. How much appreciable affect will temps have on cider vs beer?
4) Is secondary necessary? Or can I go straight to bottle/keg once desiredFG is reached without off flavors? I am doing this now as I stated above. I did drink a half pint straight out of the keg, wasn't bad. silky mouth feel perhaps? Tasted good, but I'll see after a few days and once it's refrigerated. I am not accustomed to room temp cider, and not sure what its supposed to taste like
5) Should I treat cider like beer when it come to kveik ferments. or is cider a whole other animal

Are any other cider makers here fermenting with a Kveik strain(s)? What are your findings thus far? The beer guys have plenty to say, but cider is its own thing as far as I can tell, first off, we don't brew, and out base is apple juice instead of boiled grain. I wonder, is out process going to different at the end of the day?
 

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"I'm not so sure about the mango, or citrusy notes that are supposed to come with the kveik strains" shows a misunderstanding. Each culture produces different flavors.

Kveik isolates are Saccharomyces cerevisiae and behave as such. Generally what makes most of them notable is that they are estery, non-phenolic, and can tolerate high fermentation temperature without producing off-flavors.

Besides increased nutrient requirements, these strains should handle the same in cider as in beer.

1. Opshaug is clean so if you want esters, that's not the one you need. Voss produces flavors of fresh orange and orange marmalade. Hornindal produces pineapple and mango.
2. Healthy fermentation with any yeast strain will produce cider that is suitable for drinking immediately.
3. Presumably higher temps lead to greater ester production. I ferment Voss and Hornindal at 95°F and Midtbust/Simonaitis at 90°F.
4. The point of a secondary is to allow for clarification while protecting from oxygen. You certainly can package cider after it finishes fermenting.
5. For high esters I would suggest underpitching, using lots of Fermaid O, not aerating, and hold temp above 90°F. You can drop temp after 50% sugar depletion.

"New World" ciders don't have enough structure to be good still. I highly recommend carbonating.

I don't use kveik for cider simply because I like Brett and wild yeast esters more than the kveik cultures I've used (in beer). I'm also a fan of wine yeast in general because it allows me to ferment cold in order to maintain the apple flavor, and some strains can enhance varietal character.

Cheers
 

dmtaylor

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I think hot fermentation of a cider using kveik yeast might result in a very strange cider indeed -- no apple flavor, just tropical fruity weirdness. I'll pass. But it's your cider -- have fun with it.
 

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I think hot fermentation of a cider using kveik yeast might result in a very strange cider indeed -- no apple flavor, just tropical fruity weirdness. I'll pass. But it's your cider -- have fun with it.
I'll give that a try once with cheap store bought juice, sounds like fun!
 

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I have a split 6-gal batch of cider freshly kegged that used Imperial's Kveiking blend. I added 3 lbs wheat LME to the 1.045 juice to boost the gravity and body, then let cider (now a graff) ferment at 70F till it hit 1.020. I then split the batch, racking the first half onto pineapple with Azacca dry hop and the second half just received Cascade cryo hop. I left the yeast cake behind to remove the majority of the yeast in hopes of enhancing the yeast profile a little. The two 3-gal carboys fermented at up to 78F, I didn't want to push the temp too high and lose a lot of apple aromas.

Preliminary tasting suggests that a lot of the apple flavor is gone or overcome by tropical fruity notes from the yeast, pineapple, and/or dry hop. Apple is still apparent in both versions, but I'd not say it's as apple-forward and crisp as my ciders fermented with wine yeasts. However, I'm not exactly comparing apples to apples because of my various additions.
 
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Some notes on Opshaug Kveik (hereinafter, "OK")and Cider:

So, I under pitched opshaug kveik yesterday at 1 tsp of WLP Opshaug liquid yeast at 1 tsp for 5 gallons of juice. I pitched at 6:30pm, and the airlock showed activity by 7:45pm, and remained steady till I went to bed. I woke up twice during the night and checked the airlock, and it was going at a good clip, but no blow off was needed. I did not expect it to need a blow off tube at 5:30am (11hrs after pitching). After I had some coffee, I attached a blow off tube, and had to change the collection bottle once before leaving for work. I pitched at 95F. Last time, I did half the vial and the same thing happened, only a little sooner. I even left more head-space this time! Kveik is a beastly yeast!

Tasting notes on some finished cider using OK (this one is a re-pitch using the bottom harvested yeast from the batch finished on that day(I dumped the stuff on the bottom of the carboy right on top the juice ready for the next ferment). I fermented at temps between 80F and 95F, and when it reached an SG of 1.004, I transferred the carboy to bucket of water, which maintained a temperature of 64F until it reached the FG of 1.001-1.002. This batch did not undergo a secondary fermentation as I wanted to see how it would turn out without a secondary, the intention was to mimic the beer method of grain to glass in X days (3-4 is what is often touted); my cider took about 12 days. During primary, I did have to add DAP to deal with the sulfuric smell.

The Still cider has a silky mouthfeel, there is still quite a bit apple taste, and some tannin qualities. there is some citrusy/sourness and some bitterness as well. I bottled it at 1.001-1.002 SG in hopes for a dry carbonated cider after a week or so.

I kegged about 2 gallons of this batch and keg carbed it over that last two days (its what I am drinking right now as I write). This tastes very good, very drinkable indeed. Crisp, appley taste, though the tannin is now further in the background. It still has a pronounced citrus flavor. The wife says it reminds her of saison beers in some ways. Since I am not a beer drinker, I wouldn't know. She also describes it as "milky" or "thick", which seems to mean that there is an after taste that kind of coats the mouth, and leaves a lingering taste on her lips. I get a similar feel (lip licking good I guess?). I didn't cold crash, so the cider is hazy. I am thinking that this is the cause of the lingering after taste.

As an aside, since I am home sick or under the weather really, I'm going to take some time to do some yeast drying. I have a bunch of Opshaug, and some Voss that I'm going to smear on to some parchment paper. The Voss looks a little darker than the opshaug as it was bottom harvested (not sure how it will turn out in the end). The ophsaugs that I have in different bottles looks nice and light. I am looking forward to see how this ends up working out.

There are so many questions about kveik that I have,especially since it was traditionally dried outside in the open air. I wnoder just how different each farms yeast colony would be? I wonder if I (or we in the USA or elsewhere) were to air dry the kveik in the traditional way, what we would end up with. Would we end up something just as unique, though different in someways? Would some of the yeast and ostensibly bacteria evolve to handle the high pitch and brew temps that the Norwegian Kveik has evolved to handle? I am thinking of doing the same thing with some of the yeast I harvest. That is, letting it air dry out in the open, and see what happens. I do have a microscope laying around somewhere... One of the issues for me is that the yeast we get from commercial sources like White Labs is isolated, a single strain, while the kveiks are noted as having 8 or more strains plus bacteria, at least according to the podcasts and articles I've read. I wonder if we could end up with something new, but kind of the same following the old traditions, but in a wholly different location...May as well give it go, right? The worst that could happen is that I would end up with a sour cider, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless its too damn sour, which could just become vinegar at the end of the day, or cooking cider (?)

I wonder if anyone here has the same thoughts, or if any of you have done this yet, namely, air drying kveik under the eaves, bird **** and all, if so, what happened when you used it?
 
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blasterooni

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I think hot fermentation of a cider using kveik yeast might result in a very strange cider indeed -- no apple flavor, just tropical fruity weirdness. I'll pass. But it's your cider -- have fun with it.
The batch I just completed still has a good amount of apple flavor as it turns out, more so than the nottinghams that I used with a different batch. Might be the apples more than anything else...No tropical fruity weirdness, at least with the opshaug, maybe that might be the case with other kveik strains. As RPh pointed out, the Opshaug is more of clean yeast, and I do have to agree, though I do get some citrus from it.
 
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I'll give that a try once with cheap store bought juice, sounds like fun!
I've done it with cheap stuff, the more expensive stuff, and currently with fresh picked and juiced apples. So far so good in my opinion :) Tho, the fresh picked stuff is still going at an SG of 1.004 yesterday evening. I want to take it all the way to 1.000 or below. Tasting at the hydrometer reading was quite good. Seems I got some apples with some tannin content and decent acidity, had a good bite to it :)
 

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This batch did not undergo a secondary fermentation
Secondary vessel does not equal "secondary fermentation". Simply transferring cider doesn't cause a separate fermentation.
An example of a secondary fermentation would be malolactic fermentation (MLF).
After I had some coffee, I attached a blow off tube
The safe thing is to start with a blow-off tube.

There are so many questions about kveik that I have,especially since it was traditionally dried outside in the open air. I wnoder just how different each farms yeast colony would be? I wonder if I (or we in the USA or elsewhere) were to air dry the kveik in the traditional way, what we would end up with. Would we end up something just as unique, though different in someways? Would some of the yeast and ostensibly bacteria evolve to handle the high pitch and brew temps that the Norwegian Kveik has evolved to handle? I am thinking of doing the same thing with some of the yeast I harvest. That is, letting it air dry out in the open, and see what happens. I do have a microscope laying around somewhere... One of the issues for me is that the yeast we get from commercial sources like White Labs is isolated, a single strain, while the kveiks are noted as having 8 or more strains plus bacteria, at least according to the podcasts and articles I've read. I wonder if we could end up with something new, but kind of the same following the old traditions, but in a wholly different location...May as well give it go, right? The worst that could happen is that I would end up with a sour cider, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, unless its too damn sour, which could just become vinegar at the end of the day, or cooking cider (?)

I wonder if anyone here has the same thoughts, or if any of you have done this yet, namely, air drying kveik under the eaves, bird poopy and all, if so, what happened when you used it?
I'm pretty sure kveik isn't traditionally air dried outside. I believe the modern brewers actually just keep slurry in the fridge. From my understanding, traditionally kräusen was captured with a wooden ring with lots of surface area and then dried by hanging it on the wall. They were NOT trying to introduce wild microbes.

Each farm does have a very different culture. That's what each different kveik culture is -- a different farm.
You might want to read Lars's blog. He provides everything you want to know about kveik and answers these questions in more detail.

Cider can easily be made with 100% wild yeast from just the apples. A lot of the flavor comes from microbes that are killed by the alcohol, so propogating the culture won't produce the same flavor as the original.
That said, it would be perfectly valid to propogate the primary strain(s) to develop your own house culture.
Keep in mind that yeast is not nearly as expressive in cider as in beer because cider has less flavor compounds and precursors, and a lot of the compounds that are present are aromatic and are blown out the airlock from the CO2 production.

I don't think you'll have much luck propogating a kveik culture and mixing in your own microbes if you plan to ferment above 85°F. Most wild yeast will probably produce off-flavors in that temp range.

"The worst that could happen" is you end up with a cider that tastes like garbage and needs to be dumped. I don't want to discourage your experimentation but you need to understand there are risks involved.

It's unlikely that cider will become sour. The pH is inhospitable for lactic acid bacteria during primary and there's nothing but malic acid for them to eat after primary. The lactic acid bacteria eating the malic acid (MLF) makes the cider less sour.

Cider doesn't magically turn into vinegar. Vinegar comes from excessive oxygen exposure combined with ethanol and the presence of wild microbes capable of making acetic acid.

Hope this all makes sense
 
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blasterooni

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Secondary vessel does not equal "secondary fermentation". Simply transferring cider doesn't cause a separate fermentation.
An example of a secondary fermentation would be malolactic fermentation (MLF).

The safe thing is to start with a blow-off tube.


I'm pretty sure kveik isn't traditionally air dried outside. I believe the modern brewers actually just keep slurry in the fridge. From my understanding, traditionally kräusen was captured with a wooden ring with lots of surface area and then dried by hanging it on the wall. They were NOT trying to introduce wild microbes.

Each farm does have a very different culture. That's what each different kveik culture is -- a different farm.
You might want to read Lars's blog. He provides everything you want to know about kveik and answers these questions in more detail.

Cider can easily be made with 100% wild yeast from just the apples. A lot of the flavor comes from microbes that are killed by the alcohol, so propogating the culture won't produce the same flavor as the original.
That said, it would be perfectly valid to propogate the primary strain(s) to develop your own house culture.
Keep in mind that yeast is not nearly as expressive in cider as in beer because cider has less flavor compounds and precursors, and a lot of the compounds that are present are aromatic and are blown out the airlock from the CO2 production.

I don't think you'll have much luck propogating a kveik culture and mixing in your own microbes if you plan to ferment above 85°F. Most wild yeast will probably produce off-flavors in that temp range.

"The worst that could happen" is you end up with a cider that tastes like garbage and needs to be dumped. I don't want to discourage your experimentation but you need to understand there are risks involved.

It's unlikely that cider will become sour. The pH is inhospitable for lactic acid bacteria during primary and there's nothing but malic acid for them to eat after primary. The lactic acid bacteria eating the malic acid (MLF) makes the cider less sour.

Cider doesn't magically turn into vinegar. Vinegar comes from excessive oxygen exposure combined with ethanol and the presence of wild microbes capable of making acetic acid.

Hope this all makes sense
It all makes perfect sense my friend! I always appreciate your input and feedback. Im learning a lot from you, and im gaining much insight.
Im beginning to understand the cider world much better through experience as well, and one important bit that i now understand is that i cant really go by the info on kveik as it relates to beer. Sure there are points to take away from such discussions, but i cant expect similar results with cider.

I have 2 gallons of wild yeast ferments going. And, i have to admit that the taste of these are much better than the ones with commercial yeast. I may start leaning in that direction more often so long as there is either apples available on trees, or unpasteurized juice around. I know what i have to do next year, thats for sure. I aim to own a grinder and press by next fall!
 

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i cant expect similar results with cider.
I think with lots of nutrient you could have an estery cider that's ready to drink very quickly.

I haven't used any kveik cultures for cider myself, but reports from others indicate that it performs similarly as it does in beer.
 
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I was up till 2:30 am messing around collecting, and rinsing yeast, racking the batch of cider made with neighborhood apples (tastes amazing! What difference it makes with fresh pressed apples of various sorts with crabapple juice! My goodness what a difference!).
I also mixed the remnants of the opshaug and Voss in one jar, which will be dried as a blend. I wonder if they can/will mate? I will never know unfortunately...
And now, im going to test the viability of the kveiks that i dried a few days ago, opshaug and voss, in apple juice in small jars. Pitching temp at 90F. Im going to screw the lids on loosely instead of making holes for airlocks. Should be fine.
Ill let y'all know how it goes :)
 
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Been thinking about some of points that RpH brought up un this thread, namely, the esterification that kveiks are known to afford beer, and presumably cider, and the loss of aromatics due to high fermentation temperatures. What I'm thinking is to first, ferment high until the 50% point, then transferring (not racking) the carboy to a temperature controlled environment at 60F until target FG is reached. The hypothesis is that by doing so, i can take advantage of a fast fermentation period to a certain extent, and preserve the aromatics that would have otherwise been lost if taken all the way to the target FG at the high temps, while still getting the esteric expression from the kveik used given the ester profile of a given kveik (i have duly noted that opshaug is largely a clean fermenting kveik, with little to no flavor ester expression). This may, and in fact will, take time to dial in as timing may prove to be the most important factor here. Im going with a 50% breaking point as a start and will change per the results. I may have to reduce to 33%, or i may be able to get away with 66% or more. However, this experiment may prove that kveiks are not useful for producing a cider that has the esters that add flavor to a cider in a meaningful way (for me at this point in my cider making adventure at least). But, i am willing to take the time to see what little shifts in timing might do.
Im using the break points in sugar fermentation as a point of reference, which seems logical for this experiment. Unfortunately, i will have to use the same juice every time as different blends of apples (and crabapple additions) will likely have an appreciable impact on the final outcome.
Im also curious as to what it is about beer that allows the flavor expression of esters from yeasts to be noticed. Is it the proteins in the grain? If so, which ones are they? Could the addition of say branch chain amino acids to cider help with that? These amino acids are water soluble and easy to get, and inexpensive. Just a thought.
Anyhow, i should probably end this rambling on before i get too far into the rabbit hole of no return. Who knows, maybe i overthink things...
 

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Been thinking about some of points that RpH brought up un this thread, namely, the esterification that kveiks are known to afford beer, and presumably cider, and the loss of aromatics due to high fermentation temperatures. What I'm thinking is to first, ferment high until the 50% point, then transferring (not racking) the carboy to a temperature controlled environment at 60F until target FG is reached. The hypothesis is that by doing so, i can take advantage of a fast fermentation period to a certain extent, and preserve the aromatics that would have otherwise been lost if taken all the way to the target FG at the high temps, while still getting the esteric expression from the kveik used given the ester profile of a given kveik (i have duly noted that opshaug is largely a clean fermenting kveik, with little to no flavor ester expression). This may, and in fact will, take time to dial in as timing may prove to be the most important factor here. Im going with a 50% breaking point as a start and will change per the results. I may have to reduce to 33%, or i may be able to get away with 66% or more. However, this experiment may prove that kveiks are not useful for producing a cider that has the esters that add flavor to a cider in a meaningful way (for me at this point in my cider making adventure at least). But, i am willing to take the time to see what little shifts in timing might do.
Im using the break points in sugar fermentation as a point of reference, which seems logical for this experiment. Unfortunately, i will have to use the same juice every time as different blends of apples (and crabapple additions) will likely have an appreciable impact on the final outcome.
Im also curious as to what it is about beer that allows the flavor expression of esters from yeasts to be noticed. Is it the proteins in the grain? If so, which ones are they? Could the addition of say branch chain amino acids to cider help with that? These amino acids are water soluble and easy to get, and inexpensive. Just a thought.
Anyhow, i should probably end this rambling on before i get too far into the rabbit hole of no return. Who knows, maybe i overthink things...
I don't think you'd have to do this. Kveik seems to ferment fine at the lower range. It'll be done with your cider in such a short amount of time that you will have problems to hit the right point anyway.
 
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I don't think you'd have to do this. Kveik seems to ferment fine at the lower range. It'll be done with your cider in such a short amount of time that you will have problems to hit the right point anyway.
Point well taken. The next batch I will ferment at the lowest recommended temperature, and maybe work my way up from there unless it turns out fine (why fix what ain't broke?)
 
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I tasted a [hydrometer] sample of a cider using opshaug and got strong black pepper notes with somev citrus; wifey tasted orange with apricot. Interesting. This batch was pitched on the 30th of October at 1.058, its 1.002 on the 3rd of November! What the what!? Hurray under pitch! I was looking thru my notes and was surprised that this is my most recent pitch. Fricken kveik is insane :)
 

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Fermenting high and dropping temp at the 50% break sounds like a good idea to try, in my opinion.
 
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Been thinking about some of points that RpH brought up un this thread, namely, the esterification that kveiks are known to afford beer, and presumably cider, and the loss of aromatics due to high fermentation temperatures. What I'm thinking is to first, ferment high until the 50% point, then transferring (not racking) the carboy to a temperature controlled environment at 60F until target FG is reached. The hypothesis is that by doing so, i can take advantage of a fast fermentation period to a certain extent, and preserve the aromatics that would have otherwise been lost if taken all the way to the target FG at the high temps, while still getting the esteric expression from the kveik used given the ester profile of a given kveik (i have duly noted that opshaug is largely a clean fermenting kveik, with little to no flavor ester expression). This may, and in fact will, take time to dial in as timing may prove to be the most important factor here. Im going with a 50% breaking point as a start and will change per the results. I may have to reduce to 33%, or i may be able to get away with 66% or more. However, this experiment may prove that kveiks are not useful for producing a cider that has the esters that add flavor to a cider in a meaningful way (for me at this point in my cider making adventure at least). But, i am willing to take the time to see what little shifts in timing might do.
Im using the break points in sugar fermentation as a point of reference, which seems logical for this experiment. Unfortunately, i will have to use the same juice every time as different blends of apples (and crabapple additions) will likely have an appreciable impact on the final outcome.
Im also curious as to what it is about beer that allows the flavor expression of esters from yeasts to be noticed. Is it the proteins in the grain? If so, which ones are they? Could the addition of say branch chain amino acids to cider help with that? These amino acids are water soluble and easy to get, and inexpensive. Just a thought.
Anyhow, i should probably end this rambling on before i get too far into the rabbit hole of no return. Who knows, maybe i overthink things...
So i did some research on BCAA additions to albeit wine, and came up with some very intriguing findings. Namely, the additions of BCAA and phenylalanine bring out acetate esters, the esters that proffer those fruity aromas. I will post the links later, along with a table that shows the amounts of the additions
 
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I opened a bottle of cider that I bottled on 10/21 made with apples from Boa Vista Farms, and fermented with Opshaug Kveik. I started this batch on 10/1/2019. OG was 1.062. I pitched at 75F, and steadily increased the temperature over time, landing on 88F. I racked to secondary on 10/13/2019 when the SG was at 1.008. It went from 1.020 to 1.008 in 3 days according to my notes! FG was 1.002. I did have to lower the pH in the beginning, adding both malic acid and acid blend. It is bottle conditioned, and I added some glucose at bottling time for carbonation. My target was 3.2 vol CO2. I think it came out around that. The buzz is quite pleasant after a pint of it (damn I wish I had more!!!)

I think this is one of the best ciders I've made thus far. Its nice and dry, like a champagne, but "well rounded like a beer," said my wife. I personally don't get the notion of beer, but I do think I get what she is saying. The mouth feel is well rounded with citrusy notes (lemon, and orange zest; probably from the malic acid and the acid blend I added), there's a dryness down the middle of the tongue, with a lingering full feel on the back of the tongue and roof of the mouth that lets the flavor last a little longer. (I don't know how to explain it). There is a crisp, and light apple flavor that wasn't quite there when I first tasted it at bottling/kegging time. I wish I had more of this to age even longer to see how it would change even more over time. In the future, I am going to have to make double (or triple) the amount so there is more to play with.

I almost want to drive back to get more of that juice!

:mug:
 
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I recently got some tormodgarden kveik straight from the farmer in Norway. I am doing a 3 gallon test batch to see how it performs. Unfortunately, I only had store bought juice available. It had a longer lag period than the commercial, single strain isolates I've used, about 18 hours. Didn't get the usual krausen that I get when I have used opshaug or voss. I was hoping to get a top harvest, but according to others who have used this kveik said they were only able to to bottom harvest the yeast. According to the farmer, the sweet spot is right around 95F, and with ales at least, there is a little funkiness. Further, this kveik contains about 10 different strains of yeast, but I didn't get the names of them. If you are interested in getting some, check out kveiktraining.com :)
SG: 1.070
pH: 3.2
 

CircleC-Brewer

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So i did some research on BCAA additions to albeit wine, and came up with some very intriguing findings. Namely, the additions of BCAA and phenylalanine bring out acetate esters, the esters that proffer those fruity aromas. I will post the links later, along with a table that shows the amounts of the additions
Very interested in your findings. Do you have the table available to post?
 
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blasterooni

blasterooni

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So, I'm happy to come full circle as it were, back to opshaug and Voss kveiks. For me, these two perform as I would expect a kveik to perform, namely, a fast turn around. To date, I've used framgarden, Oslo, tormodgarden, hornindal, opshaug and Voss. The latter 3 have worked great, framgarden was ok as was tormodgarden, but Oslo punked out repeatedly never really reaching a complete fermentation except on the. The last one petered out at 1.018! Just stopped. When I received the yeast in the mail, it looked unhealthy though I did make a starter from it, and it did as one would expect. This doesnt mean that these kveik strains are bunk writ large, it's probably just some bad examples. I got the framgarden and Oslo from the same person, lucky for him he got the opshaug, hornindal and Voss that I have :)
I have yet to try the midtbust, but I'm hesitant to do a full batch as I'm suspicious of its viability, or if it's even midtbust. For all I know it could be some wild yeast! Ya just never know what you might get
 

AzOr

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Thanks for all your info blasterooni. I just pitched Imperial Loki in 5 gallons of mixed apple juice. I've been holding temps between 85-90f.
So far there is an incredible peach mango aroma. The first 72 hours it was chugging a little slow (for kviek). Last night the gravity was at 1.030s. I added a tsp of Fermaid O and of DAP and this morning the airlock was going nuts. I didn't take a hydrometer reading but will later.

I used Loki because I split a pouch with the cider and a batch of IPA. The IPA was done at 72 hours (could have been done earlier but I didn't take a reading).

I was at my lhbs over the weekend and noticed they had a seasonal Imperial kveik called POG that sounds interesting as well. Maybe next batch.
 

mcgearybrewing

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"I'm not so sure about the mango, or citrusy notes that are supposed to come with the kveik strains" shows a misunderstanding. Each culture produces different flavors.

Kveik isolates are Saccharomyces cerevisiae and behave as such. Generally what makes most of them notable is that they are estery, non-phenolic, and can tolerate high fermentation temperature without producing off-flavors.

Besides increased nutrient requirements, these strains should handle the same in cider as in beer.

1. Opshaug is clean so if you want esters, that's not the one you need. Voss produces flavors of fresh orange and orange marmalade. Hornindal produces pineapple and mango.
2. Healthy fermentation with any yeast strain will produce cider that is suitable for drinking immediately.
3. Presumably higher temps lead to greater ester production. I ferment Voss and Hornindal at 95°F and Midtbust/Simonaitis at 90°F.
4. The point of a secondary is to allow for clarification while protecting from oxygen. You certainly can package cider after it finishes fermenting.
5. For high esters I would suggest underpitching, using lots of Fermaid O, not aerating, and hold temp above 90°F. You can drop temp after 50% sugar depletion.

"New World" ciders don't have enough structure to be good still. I highly recommend carbonating.

I don't use kveik for cider simply because I like Brett and wild yeast esters more than the kveik cultures I've used (in beer). I'm also a fan of wine yeast in general because it allows me to ferment cold in order to maintain the apple flavor, and some strains can enhance varietal character.

Cheers
Do you find that overpitching the FermaidO leaves a nutrient flavor in the finished product?
 

RPh_Guy

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Do you find that overpitching the FermaidO leaves a nutrient flavor in the finished product?
No. Generally speaking, off-flavors from yeast nutrient come from diammonium phosphate (DAP), which is not present in Fermaid O.
 
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RPh_Guy

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I figured that. What pitching rate do you typically use for a cider with a normal yeast?
For a normal gravity cider I typically use a dry (wine) yeast and pitch according to the manufacturer suggestion: 0.8 to 1 gram per gallon for Lallemand products. I rehydrate properly with GoFerm.

For high-gravity faux ice cider I pitch higher, 2-3 times what's recommended for wine.

For wild fermentation I don't pitch yeast at all, or I will add a few drops of a Brett culture from my yeast ranch.
 
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