Krausening Problems?

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trombasteve

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Hi all,

I've had a problem with my past two batches that I'm kind of scratching my head about. I've been brewing (AG, BIAB) for a few years now, and moved to krausening for bottling about two years ago, and have generally been very happy with the results.

However, my past two batches (both recipes I've made before with better results) have refused to clear after krausening (both were clear in the fermenter), didn't carbonate all that well, and stayed stubbornly under-attenuated with with some funny off tastes (none of which were present before bottling). Basically, I think the krausening never really finished, and yeast stayed in suspension. (The two yeasts were WLP 810 and WLP 002, and the OGs were 1.060 and 1.054, so nothing too exotic, and fermentations appeared to be healthy, and both were left for roughly 2-3 weeks before bottling.)

My usual process is to siphon some of the yeast cake from the primary into the Erlenmeyer flask containing my krausening wort the day before bottling, leave it to do its thing, then bottle roughly 15-20 hours later. I haven't been all that strict about the quantity of yeast cake I siphon to inoculate the krausening wort, or oxygenating the krausening wort. In both of these cases, the gravity of the krausening wort hadn't declined very far from the OG (1.060 down to 1.047, and 1.054 down to 1.045). The quantities have been relatively small (1.5 litres in a 5 litre flask - I brew 2.5 gallon batches), so I was initially afraid that high krausen had already come and gone and I hadn't seen it because of the large surface area, but that seems less likely judging from the gravities.

I guess sanitation is always a possibility, but I haven't had generally had sanitation problems, and there definitely haven't been any gushers/bottle bombs.

Can anyone shed some light on this? How important is it that the krausening wort is at high krausen when bottling? Am I barking up the wrong tree?
 
Can anyone shed some light on this? How important is it that the krausening wort is at high krausen when bottling? Am I barking up the wrong tree?

I have never krausened a beer so take/disregard this post with that in mind.

Here is a great walkthough if you havn't already read it.

It is important that the krausen beer be fermenting. Braukaiser makes no mention of it being at high krausen. That would seem needlessly arbitrary to me and how do you identify high krausen unless it has come and gone and the krausen is beginning to diminish.

Like I said, just a thought. Hope you get things worked out.

Also how are you storing the wort for krausening and how are you preparing/sanitizing it prior to innoculation with yeast?
 
It is important that the krausen beer be fermenting. Braukaiser makes no mention of it being at high krausen. That would seem needlessly arbitrary to me and how do you identify high krausen unless it has come and gone and the krausen is beginning to diminish.

Thanks for your thoughts, Gavin! I had read the Braukaiser article, and it's true that he doesn't specify high krausen (but, rather, "actively fermenting"), but a number of other sources do say that. For anyone else reading/interested:

"Usually, the volume of fermenting beer (called kräusen beer, because it is added at high kräusen) is equal to 10–17% of the main batch of green beer." - http://byo.com/mead/item/966-kräusening-techniques

"Traditionally, the krausening addition is added at the most active point of fermentation." - http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/03/22/krausening-home-brewed-beer/

"Then when the small beer is at high krausen, pitch it into your green beer. Simple huh?" - http://www.winning-homebrew.com/krausening.html

It could be that it's not important, but in trying to trouble-shoot the poor results, this was one thing that jumped out at me, and I'm hoping others who use this technique can relate their experiences to confirm/deny.

Also how are you storing the wort for krausening and how are you preparing/sanitizing it prior to innoculation with yeast?

I'm storing the krausen frozen in bottles, and boiling it in my Erlenmeyer flask, as per the Braukaiser method.
 
Thanks for your thoughts, Gavin! I had read the Braukaiser article, and it's true that he doesn't specify high krausen (but, rather, "actively fermenting"), but a number of other sources do say that. For anyone else reading/interested:

"Usually, the volume of fermenting beer (called kräusen beer, because it is added at high kräusen) is equal to 10–17% of the main batch of green beer." - http://byo.com/mead/item/966-kräusening-techniques

"Traditionally, the krausening addition is added at the most active point of fermentation." - http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/03/22/krausening-home-brewed-beer/

"Then when the small beer is at high krausen, pitch it into your green beer. Simple huh?" - http://www.winning-homebrew.com/krausening.html

It could be that it's not important, but in trying to trouble-shoot the poor results, this was one thing that jumped out at me, and I'm hoping others who use this technique can relate their experiences to confirm/deny.



I'm storing the krausen frozen in bottles, and boiling it in my Erlenmeyer flask, as per the Braukaiser method.

Sounds like you've done your homework and are following tried and true practices. Sorry I'm no use to you. Hope you get things worked out. Best of luck.
 
It sounds like an awesome process, but in my head, I keep thinking "Here there be dragons". It just seems fraught with peril.

'Grats on your successes!
 
In case anyone's following this but hasn't posted, I'll be bottling another batch shortly, and will be sure to do the bottling at high krausen, so we'll soon see if that makes a difference. (I'll post back here with an update.)
 
I don't see dragons here, but I do see a process that has at least one criticality that could affect the outcome fairly dramatically.

I'm assuming the target beer is fully fermented, so the eventual carbonation of same is going to be entirely dependent on whatever sugars are conveyed with the krausening beer - which is actively fermenting and dropping its gravity by the minute.

No doubt smarter brewers than me can get a handle on the timing, but I'm not sure what advantage the process provides vs simply dosing a batch with a measured primer in the first place that could outweigh the critical nature of the process...

Cheers!
 
I also Krausen, however I discovered my method from Charley Papazion's Complete Joy of Home Brewing, pgs 331 - 332. Here there is no mention of adding yeast with the gyle.

I boil my gyle and after letting it cool a bit, add it to my bottling bucket and my fermented beer and bottle the result.

I must say it does take a while for the product to taste 'not green'. Off flavors are an issue with my beer and I have always considered fermentation temps to be the cause (I live in the south), but I have just purchased an upright freezer / temperature controller and both ferment and bottle condition my ales for 3 weeks before moving them to room (70 ish degree) basement temps.

I have has some successful batches and I think the krausened beer does taste better when I do. I am hopeful this freezer will significantly improve my beer. If not, looking at this krausening process may be my next step.
 
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