Keggle component suggestions

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Orangecrusher

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Hi everyone. Awhile back I gathered materials to start a 2 vessel K-RIMS electric brewery using two sanke kegs. Summer got busy and I had to put the project aside for a bit but now I'm back to it.
Last night I was going over what I've purchased so far and reviewing what notes I had made. I hadn't refined my plan 100% and some things were still up in the air which is what I'm hoping to address here with some questions to people who have done it all before.
First, I plan to use the Auber EZ-Boil 320 controller. The question I have regarding this is what dictates the length of your RTD. Is something a couple inches fine or do I need to reach father in? Also, I'm contemplating using two RTD's, one in the keggle and one in the MT, but they would be used separately during the boil and the mash respectively. Is this a good idea? The element in the Keggle would be controlled by the RTD in the MT during the mash/lautering. I would run both sensors to a switch in the controller so I can select the proper one at the appropriate time, unless there is some way to use two sensors with the EZ-Boil, but I haven't seen where there is any mention of it. My thinking is the MT sensor would be a longer probe to reach into the center of the mash about a quarter the way up the vessel. I could see a problem with using a system like this when the mash gets stuck or just from hysteresis and the element heating up too much without any change in the RTD.
 
If that is too boring of a question, perhaps someone would like to share their pickup tube setup.

I was told to just use the sanke port for a cleanout and add a separate outlet so that I could whirlpool. Just wondering what that might look like. Sanke's aren't flat on the bottom(actually the top) so I'm not sure how far out to go with the tube. I'd imagine I could go almost to the center because most of the debris from whirlpooling will probably fall down the sanke port(drain). I hate wasting good wort.
 
I think I'll just use a 1/2" threaded bulkhead fitting with a compression fitting on the backside and come up with some bent tubing.

I realise this is all elementary and talked to death a millions times. I'm just concerned about the holes I need to cut and where at this point. Got stuff crisscrossing every which way in these setups.

I've searched for mentions about RTD lengths and I'm not finding much so I assume it's not all that important.

I'll just experiment and see where it takes me. Wish I could delete threads lol.

Salute
 
Naw..Don't delete.. You'll get some more detailed feedback than I can give at the moment (Got brain-damage that makes me process things very slowly, but I get there in the end) I do have questions:
Are you saying that you'll be putting a heating element directly in your MT?
..working with only one controller might prove problematic too.. The usual place for a sensor with the mash tun is either on the top of a RIMS tube, or the output of a HERMS..and I assumed no HERMS since you've stated 2-vessel.
To be clear: Are you cutting out the top or the bottom or one of each on your kegs?
Important question: How much can you spend? ..minimal or maximal or somewhere in the middle?
Do you have a pump or 2?
If you haven't seen it already, go over this marvellous guide: Building Your Brewery
:mug:
 
I'll check out that link. Thank you; not sure if I've seen it yet, but I like any ideas I can get my hands on.
So I'm doing a K-Rims which is using the brew kettle as the "Rims tube". There will be one element and it'll be in the boiling "keggle". The Sanke kegs will be turned upside down and a hole plasma cut where the bottom used to be. I have tri-clover conversion fittings to turn the original Sanke outlet into a port I can use. It will end up being a 1/2" threaded outlet.
I also have a flexible weldless sight glass for the side of the boil keggle, a full false bottom for the Mash Tun keggle, one pump, and two of the types of ball valves which you can disassemble to clean. Finally I have two 1.5" weldless tri-clover bulkheads and one 1/2" threaded bulkhead fitting that are available for other components which I'm establishing now.
I figure one tri-clover will be used for the RTD temp sensor on the boil kettle. I was contemplating a second RTD temp sensor on the Mash Tun but I think that over-complicates and causes more opportunity for problems than it's worth. Maybe I'll use that one 1/2" threaded bulkhead for my siphon port on the bottom of the boil kettle which leaves me with one 1.5" tri-clover left to find a use for. I won't need a bottom port on the MT because I will be using the Sanke conversion port for that underneath.
I hope your following me still.
I haven't even gotten to my inlets and how I want those. I think I'm gravitating toward wand type inlets which I can clamp to the top. That way I can play with how it's setup and changing things is easy.
I could probably get away with not even drilling any holes in the MT, however, I will most likely use that second tri-clover to put a analog thermometer on the side to have a closer account of the temps during the mash.
I still plan to get one more pump for a total of two, but I still have to find out if that's necessary. I just see most setups like mine with two. I'll be using quick-connects so moving hoses around ought to be easy once I figure out what the hell I'm doing. lol
So maybe I'm brain damaged too because for me, picturing how the brewing process will go in an electric setup is kinda hard despite having brewed with a burner for over 20 years. I gotta remember it's ok to experiment and make some mistakes. I'm an electrician and a mechanic by trade so I get a little more involved in the building process and lose sight of the big picture sometimes which is making beer and having fun. I'm certain I'm making this much more complicated than it needs to be.
I haven't been able to brew since I decided to go electric and I don't think that has helped me much either as I've kinda forgotten a lot of what I knew before, although it'll come right back once I get going again.
 
Sounds like just one temp sensor on the output/return of the BK (to the MT, and later, for reciculation in the BK) should work just fine, in a tee on the keggle out valve.
 
...for an accurate MT temp, you'd probably want a handheld probe that you check various levels with to fine tune the temp setting coming out of the BK.
 
I've heard on the output is better because it avoids error due to stratification inside the vessel. However, it conflicts with the operation of the controller on warmup unless I were to recirculate from bottom to top to get a reading for the boil or mash out. But then again I've seen a probe in the output of the MT to better measure the mash temp yet that brings me back to two temp probes.

See I keep hitting these forks in the roads.lol
I guess I want to stay simple to begin with. Perhaps I'll look into a probe on the BK outlet to start with. This will mean one less hole in the BK.
 
You could always put camlocks on the sensor tee and do a couple batches trying each position to see what works best for you. I know there are quite a few others on here with a similar setup (but the search engine isn't that great) so if we keep bumping your thread, hopefully one of them will weigh in.:mug:
 
I decided for now I will put the sensor in the side of the BK. I can always change it later or add another, but for now that makes the most sense. I ordered some more cam lock fitting last night since I only had enough for one side and also two more bulkhead threaded fittings to use for the returns at the top of the vessels. For sparging I think I'm just going to go with silicone hose instead of a sparging mechanism. I'll make some kind of whirlpool cane and pickup tube for the BK out of copper for now until I figure out what works best and then have something made of SS. I still need to order my controller parts and a plate chiller. I think I'll be setting all this on a rolling cart I will make out of aluminum 80/20 and starboard tops.
 
I decided for now I will put the sensor in the side of the BK. I can always change it later or add another, but for now that makes the most sense. I ordered some more cam lock fitting last night since I only had enough for one side and also two more bulkhead threaded fittings to use for the returns at the top of the vessels. For sparging I think I'm just going to go with silicone hose instead of a sparging mechanism. I'll make some kind of whirlpool cane and pickup tube for the BK out of copper for now until I figure out what works best and then have something made of SS. I still need to order my controller parts and a plate chiller. I think I'll be setting all this on a rolling cart I will make out of aluminum 80/20 and starboard tops.
In the side of the BK, with the tip near the element, and in a line between the element and the BK outlet to the pump. This gives you the best sensitivity to temp changes with the least time delay, and the lowest chance of overheating (or even scorching) your recirculating wort. Your MT temps will be lower than the temp in the BK, so you need to characterize what the temp difference is, and use it to offset the controller setpoint to hit your desired mash temp. Here is a good thermometer for probing multiple points within the volume of a mash.

I'll also throw out my preferred control panel design for E-BIAB and KRIMS. It has a safe start function that prevents main power from being turned on unless the pump and element enable switches are OFF. This can prevent nasty surprises on power up.

DSPR300 1-Pump 1-Element 240V rev-2.PNG


Brew on :mug:
 
So this is what I've come up with using some second hand 3P 24V coil contactors and power supply. It complicated things but that's what makes it fun. Unfortunately, my free copy of SkyCAD I used did not let me show wire info like colors so It's a bit hard to follow unless your used to this sort of thing. I wasted a lot of time coloring too, lol.
Brew_Panel.png
 
The switches I ordered have 120V led indicators in them and I chose to also use separate indicators connected with each pump and the element(heater). I will probably have an indicator wired into the main switch which is a standard A/B selector switch. The indicators I bought have a lit lcd panel i them which displays voltage so each indicator will be like a little voltmeter. I'm sure it's been done but the novelty got me. I'm just waiting for some components to arrive in the mail and then I can begin to put it all together.
Got my kegs done last weekend. Time to build a cart..
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Just in case anyone is paying attention or might use my information I'm presenting here is an updated schematic. I found some errors and figured out a way to cheat the software and get a color picture. I'm not sure what happened to Pump_2 Switch and the fill in the center that makes it look different. It doesn't mean anything and is similar to Pump_1 Switch.
Let me know what you think.
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This second drawing is much easier to follow with the color.

Haven't checked for errors in the above yet, but if I understand it, you replaced all the line voltage switches from my design with 24V switches (which required adding a 24V power supply, and two contactors for the pumps), and added a second pump. Is this correct?

I'm curious why you went with low voltage switching, since everything is contained within the control panel? I do understand why this is done for safety reasons when control switches are spatially distributed outside of the control panel. Also, wonder what the perceived benefits are of having redundant pump "ON" lights (both integrated in the switches, and discreet)?

Brew on :mug:
 
I have a Main Contactor and an Element contactor just like your schematic but yes they have 24V coils. I have access to used components that would otherwise be thrown away, so I horde them, lol. Also I have two cube relays to run the pumps from. I'm hoping these will be adequate to run pumps that aren't going to be struggling much. They are 24V coils and have about a 8A limit with a 120V load. I haven't check the pumps to see what they draw yet. The wiring will end up being slightly different because I will have termination strips in there and I might add a buzzer later if it seems neccessary.
I just finished the layout of my box. I don't have any switches yet so the door isn't cut yet except for the PID hole, but I did leave room in the box for them behind the door (we'll see).

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Another thing that makes things not so straight forward is my switches and indicators all have lamps rated for 120V. In some places I will have 24V going through a switch but it's indicator will actually be running off 120V. Pretty much all I need 24V for is the coils. Like I mentioned before my indicators will be able to run off AC120V-500V and have a digital meter on the face of them. Hoping those work like I expect...
 
My panel could probably have been smaller but I would have had to pay for it. I like using reclaimed electronics. Seems right to do. Besides, most of what's available for a decent price to consumers is plastic Chinese junk.
 
Gonna pick up a chrome wire rack to use as my cart for everything. I was going to fabricate something, but for $70 with casters why mess around. I have 1/2" black plastic sheeting I can affix to it to mount things to. All reclaimed as well.
 
I have two cube relays to run the pumps from. I'm hoping these will be adequate to run pumps that aren't going to be struggling much. They are 24V coils and have about a 8A limit with a 120V load. I haven't check the pumps to see what they draw yet.
8A is plenty for a typical brewing pump. My Chugger is rated at 1.4 amps, so 8A should be enough of an over rating to handle the start-up current surge.

Brew on :mug:
 
Getting some good progress now.
Waiting on some indicators to fill the holes left in my control panel.
Now I need some suggestions for where to put my control panel on my brewing rig shown below. I am having a hard time deciding as the box is a decent size and weight. It's 6.5" deep x 12" wide x 16" tall and weighs all of 20lbs.
I'd like it attached to the rig so I can move the whole thing around my room which has limited space.
At first I was thinking of making a swinging arm so it could fit inbetween two riser poles on the side facing to the side and then deploy out and swing around to the front. I think the box is a little to big to do that plus designing a hinging mechanism for the baker rack is going to take some time.
A second idea is to cover the back of the rack vertically with the black plastic sheeting and attach the panel under the top shelves above the keggles. This would be the most compact way but steam would be an issue and also having to reach over the hot kettles.

Anyone have any other ideas they can share?

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Have you looked at the Blichman brew easy for some ideas. Its a K-RIMS system using a single controller and pump. I agree that a whirlpool port is a good idea.
 
Finished the CP. Now to figure out where to put it. Also have a new pump and chiller in the mail. Get those arranged and I'm getting pretty close to cookin again!
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Have you looked at the Blichman brew easy for some ideas. Its a K-RIMS system using a single controller and pump. I agree that a whirlpool port is a good idea.
Hello Bag-0! I assume from your avatar you're Sicilian like me. Ciao!
I plan to have a whirlpool. I put a return up top as you can see and right now I have a 1/2" 90 elbow with a 1/2" hose port on the inside. I'm sure a hot silicone hose isn't gonna sit still and I just may make a 3/8" pipe off a compression fitting instead of that 90 and make it aim-able at the bottom. That's basically what I plan to do with the pickup at the bottom. As for the pickup, I'm not sure quite where the optimum place to point the intake at or if I'll want to put some kind of screen on it (especially since I'm using a plate chiller-never had one before this), but with this design in copper it should be easy to adjust it between brews and find the sweet spot.
 
Having some problems getting my setup to perform. I keep blowing one of the 10A fuses. I've blown two so far and they were on different legs. It seems to happen when the Auber ends the program and suddenly shuts off the heating element. I must be getting some kind of spike in current flow from that and it's taking out my fuses. I may go to 15A just to see if that helps. The odd thing is I'm not reading much current on each leg while the element is running using my Fluke amp-clamp. Maybe I wasn't using the max/min setting or the switching was affecting it's reading somehow.
On a side note, my indicator lights are cheap. They work fine enough, it's just that the contecting screws are not designed well at all and just fall out of the housing at the slightest amount of torque. They are held in by what amounts to a bit of flashing in the plastic housing and once thats scraped away then they just fall out which is no good. I recieved my last two of these yesterday and had a real hard time attaching 12awg THHN to them. I went to a smaller gage but then the contact solder point to the light came apart. lol cheap chinese junk!
Anyway, I think I have an idea on how to rig these so I can use them and they won't fall apart inside the box and short out on something. I'll solder leads directly to the wires coming from the light/display and then fill the cavity with epoxy and do away with the coke can thin contact assemblies. They're just leds with segment displays so I don't need 12awg going to them either.
So I'll be tearing apart all my wiring in the box and cleaning it up. Par for the course I guess. Most things end up being built several times before I get it right.
I also found an error in my wiring. I wanted to turn everything on with the selector switch so that nothing could be accidently activated if it was plugged in but not in use including the Auber. So I had to reroute the wires going in to the element contactor and separate some of the terminations from the rest so I had hot all the time terms and switched terms.
 
My heating element is pulling 20amps. I was under the impression it should be 10?

I see where i got confused. 10A fuse for the pump. No fuse for the element.
 
My heating element is pulling 20amps. I was under the impression it should be 10?

I see where i got confused. 10A fuse for the pump. No fuse for the element.
You can figure out what the element current should be by applying the following formulas (P is power in watts, I is current in amps, and V is volts):

V = I * R​
P = I^2 * R​
From which you can derive the following formula, which is also useful:

P = V^2 / R​
First calculate the nominal resistance of your element using the third formula. For 5500W @ 240V we get:

5500 = 240^2 / R, or​
R = 240^2 / 5500 = 10.473 ohms​
We can then calculate nominal current using the first formula above:

240 = I * 10.473, or​
I = 240 / 10.473 = 22.9 A​
Since R is constant for the element, if your voltage across the element is less than 240V, then the current will be less than 22.9 A. Voltage across the element can be lower due to supply line voltage being less than 240V, but you will also lose about 1.5V due to the SSR.

Brew on :mug:
 
Update
3.5 weeks ago I brewed my first beer on my new electric system. To keep it simple I bought a kit from NB which I don't normally do. I just felt like I wanted to focus on the new process and not the recipe. I picked a neipa clone zombie dust. This beer is a departure from what I normally do with a ton of hop additions including a dry hop. Everything went pretty well. Only issue I had was hops getting into my plate chiller. I asked for it though. I have nothing to stop it except the whirpool. Next time I'll use one of my bags or make some kind of spider. Target OG was 1.062 and I got 1.051 so about 82% efficiency. It's been awhile since I paid attention to BE and when I took the OG I thought it was bad, but turns out it was pretty good. I think with gas I was usually around 70-75% so hopefully this wasn't a fluke. I kept track of the water I used. That was something I was a little worried about. I needed enough to keep the element covered through the mash and I was worried I had too much. I didn't think about how much the hops and yeast would take away though and before bottling today I had exactly 5 gallons left. That could be part of my old 70-75% BE ; usually I had 6 gallons to bottle. Speaking of mashing, I had to sit and watch the levels through the whole mash. I could not find a place where the two valves I had to adjust were balanced. The BK level would go up and down if I didn't pay attention. This is something I'd like to improve. (I'm using the BK as a KRIMS)
If I could improve my hop filtration and BK level control during the mash before my next brew that'd be great.
 
Speaking of mashing, I had to sit and watch the levels through the whole mash. I could not find a place where the two valves I had to adjust were balanced. The BK level would go up and down if I didn't pay attention. This is something I'd like to improve. (I'm using the BK as a KRIMS)
This is an inherent issue with K-RIMS systems, that RIMS tubes and HERMS don't have.

Brew on :mug:
 
You know, at the end of my build I was searching for a float mechanism because I had read about the autosparge in the past but had forgotten the details. Thanks for reminding me. I'm sure that would help.
 
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