Keg Force Carbing Methods Illustrated

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brewbama

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that's the risk with over pressure plus agitation for burst carbing. A safer way of burst carbing is to put 30 psi on a cold keg for 36 hrs (no more), and no agitation. Then vent the headspace, and set to serving pressure.



Brew on :mug:

+1
 

day_trippr

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Even safer, set the CO2 pressure using our favorite carbonation table, hook up your keg, then shake it 'til you don't hear any more gas entering. Let it sit for an hour, then repeat. Do that a couple/few times and you'll have nicely carbonated beer with no chance of over-carbonation.

Best to have a backflow-preventer (aka check valve) in the gas line to prevent accidentally flooding your regulator if you do something wrong - like turn off the gas cylinder with the keg pressurized and laying on its side...

Cheers!
 

doug293cz

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Even safer, set the CO2 pressure using our favorite carbonation table, hook up your keg, then shake it 'til you don't hear any more gas entering. Let it sit for an hour, then repeat. Do that a couple/few times and you'll have nicely carbonated beer with no chance of over-carbonation.

Best to have a backflow-preventer (aka check valve) in the gas line to prevent accidentally flooding your regulator if you do something wrong - like turn off the gas cylinder with the keg pressurized and laying on its side...

Cheers!
This is also a safe method of burst carbonating, and as @day_trippr says, has zero risk of over carbing. My method will over carb if you forget to lower the pressure soon enough. Whether or not you use this one, or the one I suggested, depends on how you feel about shaking a 50+ lb keg. Personally, I'm getting too old to shake a full keg.

Brew on :mug:
 
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applescrap

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How long do you agitate it for? I tried this once and way over carbed it so I've been scared to try it again.
I listen until it stops going in and or it slows. Since I am doing it warm, it takes a little more. I agree it can be tricky but if you want to drink your brew right away cause your out, this is the method. Then i let it sit an hour, vent it and lower.
 

Pkrd

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I listen until it stops going in and or it slows. Since I am doing it warm, it takes a little more. I agree it can be tricky but if you want to drink your brew right away cause your out, this is the method. Then i let it sit an hour, vent it and lower.
I hook the gas up to the beer out post for shaking, easy to hear the bubbling. Yes, please vent first!
 

philly224

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Even safer, set the CO2 pressure using our favorite carbonation table, hook up your keg, then shake it 'til you don't hear any more gas entering. Let it sit for an hour, then repeat. Do that a couple/few times and you'll have nicely carbonated beer with no chance of over-carbonation.

Best to have a backflow-preventer (aka check valve) in the gas line to prevent accidentally flooding your regulator if you do something wrong - like turn off the gas cylinder with the keg pressurized and laying on its side...

Cheers!
Sounds tempting but I don't have a check valve and I'll be pissed if I have to clean out my gas lines lol.
 

philly224

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Even safer, set the CO2 pressure using our favorite carbonation table, hook up your keg, then shake it 'til you don't hear any more gas entering. Let it sit for an hour, then repeat. Do that a couple/few times and you'll have nicely carbonated beer with no chance of over-carbonation.

Best to have a backflow-preventer (aka check valve) in the gas line to prevent accidentally flooding your regulator if you do something wrong - like turn off the gas cylinder with the keg pressurized and laying on its side...

Cheers!
If I do it this way how long should I wait before I try a pour?
 

day_trippr

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Once you've hit equilibrium (ie: no more gas is entering the keg) you could pull a pour right away.
Of course, whatever was in the keg will have been thoroughly distributed, so if you're going this route it pays to have cold-crashed before racking...

Cheers!
 

philly224

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Okay well I tried to do it that way and it didn't really carb, I probably just didn't do it enough. Don't really wanna take the keg out and disturb it again so I am thinking about just setting it to 30 for 24 hrs. Thoughts?
 

applescrap

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^^take beer side off
Turn up psi past 25
Put keg on towell if hard surface
air side up (could go down, but i feel better with it up)
Rock back and forth quick, use foot or I get on hands and knees
Quick hard agressive boom boom (sorry, im giggling) its physical work
Shake that mfer back and forth stop as it slows or stops going in, its an art for me but would like to time in future.
Put keg upright and remove gas from keg
especially before you turn it down.
Remove the air and let it sit 30 minutes or more
Purge extra co2 this is important so you dont blow your regulator and set to 8 psi or whatever you need to do there, I am no expert and enjoy

I never do the set it and forget it because I am worried if I had a leak I would lose all my air but I'm not against it or anything. I have also Force carbed at 15 psi. It's all Force carbonating really. I wonder if shaking it is hard on the beer and it certainly puts everything in suspension and probably would be better to let rest a couple weeks. But if you want to drink your beer in 30 minutes this is how you do it.
 

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Okay well I tried to do it that way and it didn't really carb, I probably just didn't do it enough. Don't really wanna take the keg out and disturb it again so I am thinking about just setting it to 30 for 24 hrs. Thoughts?
That works, as long as you have more beer[emoji1]

Read a few recent posts and figure I'll give the quick carb method I use I'm sure it's already somewhere in this thread but...

Chill keg to serving temp, set regulator to 25psi and connect. Tilt keg so that it's on just an edge of the bottom (but still mostly upright). Set a timer for 15 minutes and rock gently forward and back (so more tilt to less tilt, vice versa).

Disconnect and purge when the timer stops. My rocking motion is not scientific, I start rocking maybe 5 inches and usually down to about an inch near the end, as I'm lazy by that time. I've found this to be much more reliable than laying it on the ground, no over carbonation. YMMV.
 

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Even safer, set the CO2 pressure using our favorite carbonation table, hook up your keg, then shake it 'til you don't hear any more gas entering. Let it sit for an hour, then repeat. Do that a couple/few times and you'll have nicely carbonated beer with no chance of over-carbonation.

Best to have a backflow-preventer (aka check valve) in the gas line to prevent accidentally flooding your regulator if you do something wrong - like turn off the gas cylinder with the keg pressurized and laying on its side...

Cheers!
Will have to try this! How are you shaking your keg, putting it on the floor and rocking it? Is the gas-side up?
 

day_trippr

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I just lean the keg over ~45° and back repeatedly. No need to get overly aggressive about it :)

Cheers!
 

Gustatorian

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I just lean the keg over ~45° and back repeatedly. No need to get overly aggressive about it :)

Cheers!
Seems like this would take quite a bit of time if you're only applying appropriate keg chart pressures of CO2 and just tilting the keg. How long does it take for you to do one "shaking/tilting" session? When you tilt the keg, are you keeping the CO2 post at the highest point?
 

day_trippr

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When I do this I'll do ten minutes or so, then let it sit while I get some work done, then another ten minutes, repeat 'til it no longer takes in gas. If I start early enough it'll be done by the time I'm done working for the day.

That said I rarely do this as my pipeline provides at least a couple of weeks for carbonation in a separate fridge.
My gas systems all have check valves for each manifold port plus the ones at the regulators so I'm not too concerned about beer backing up (hasn't happened yet)...

Cheers!
 

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Ok I seem to having the opposite issue! I brewed a pale ale and kegged it. I have always did your "burst" technique, and has always seemed to work. However this batch will not carb. I did about 30 psi for 48 hours, then dropped it to 12psi for 5 days. And just a hint of carbonation. So I checked my seals and did it again still nothing. I am no physicist or chemist but I do know Boyle's law that the gas should be forced in. But could there be some chemical reason in my ale that will not allow the carbonation? I am about ready to crank up my regulator as high as it can go! BTW the ale tastes great even flat, so I am super eager to get some effervescence!
 
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I have to say I'm not a fan of the whole high pressure shake and bake way. For me the results were, at best, inconsistent. The last time I did it the results were over foamed, undercarbed beer. Force carbonation is not about force it is about dissolving a certain volume of CO2 into the liquid. The pressure used is determined by the temperature of the liquid. The high pressure shake is crude to say the least. For less then $50 you can turn any corney keg into a bright tank and carb with reliability and consistency. With accurate feedback to know when you are done. First you'll need one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M335AXA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The tiny bubbles of gas coming out of the stone more quickly dissolve into the liquid. The difference between this way and high pressure shaking is like the difference between dissolving 4oz of powdered sugar verses trying to dissolve a 4oz cube of sugar.

The feedback is measured using a simple pressure gauge that's monitoring the head pressure in your keg. This is what I put together for less then $15

IMG_4562.JPG


Here is the stone

IMG_4565.JPG


Here's what it looks like together:

IMG_4564.JPG


Here's the link that explains how to use these to carb your beer with confidence.

https://chme.nmsu.edu/files/2016/06/Brite-tank-carbonation.pdf

I've done two beers and each one is dead on perfect. The best part is, they were both carbed in just two days including the 24 hours for the CO2 to 'stick.' The final pressure was 13-14 psi with a wetting pressure of 2 psi for a volume being around 2.5 at 34º F. The kegs are not tall enough for hydrostatic pressure to be much of factor. Maybe a half a psi.

Cheers!
 
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Todes

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Hello, I use the Hook corny to CO2 and leave it there for some days. I have this question. In some places they say you can hook it to the Liquid Post and others to the Gas post. Wich one works better?
 
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doug293cz

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Hello, I use the Hook corny to CO2 and leave it there for some days. I have this question. In some places they say you can hook it to the Liquid Post and others to the Gas post. Wich one works better?
You can put a gas QD on a liquid post, but they are a little loose, and don't seal well. You could potentially lose a lot of CO2 in a hurry doing this. If you want to carbonate thru the liquid post, put a liquid QD on the CO2 line.

The other risk of feeding CO2 into the liquid post is: beer blow back into your regulator. You have to have check valves, and trust them completely, if you are going to do this.

Bubbling the CO2 thru the beer (by feeding gas into the liquid post) should carbonate a little faster, but I haven't seen any hard data on this. If time is an issue that using the 30 psi for 36 hrs, then drop to chart pressure works in about 3 days. It's what I do.

Brew on :mug:
 

Todes

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You can put a gas QD on a liquid post, but they are a little loose, and don't seal well. You could potentially lose a lot of CO2 in a hurry doing this. If you want to carbonate thru the liquid post, put a liquid QD on the CO2 line.

The other risk of feeding CO2 into the liquid post is: beer blow back into your regulator. You have to have check valves, and trust them completely, if you are going to do this.

Bubbling the CO2 thru the beer (by feeding gas into the liquid post) should carbonate a little faster, but I haven't seen any hard data on this. If time is an issue that using the 30 psi for 36 hrs, then drop to chart pressure works in about 3 days. It's what I do.

Brew on :mug:
thank you ! Doug
 
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The idea behind feeding gas to the liquid side is to give more opportunity for the gas to interact with the liquid as it bubbles up from the bottom and therefore more quickly dissolve into solution. It's the same technique used in brite tanks but minus the stone. As to the effectiveness of this technique, I don't know, but those who do it use a liquid attachment to feed the gas. A check valve is highly recommended but the way liquid would flow back up into your regulator is if the gas pressure between regulator and the keg drops, i.e. your co2 tank runs dry. Otherwise the pressure equilibrium will keep the two apart.
 

doug293cz

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The idea behind feeding gas to the liquid side is to give more opportunity for the gas to interact with the liquid as it bubbles up from the bottom and therefore more quickly dissolve into solution. It's the same technique used in brite tanks but minus the stone. As to the effectiveness of this technique, I don't know, but those who do it use a liquid attachment to feed the gas. A check valve is highly recommended but the way liquid would flow back up into your regulator is if the gas pressure between regulator and the keg drops, i.e. your co2 tank runs dry. Otherwise the pressure equilibrium will keep the two apart.
You get big bubbles without the stone, so the effectiveness is greatly reduced. Proper use of a stone starts at low pressure, then gradually raising the pressure as the flow slows down. Some experimentation is required to determine the proper CO2 flow rate such that the CO2 bubbles dissolve before they reach the surface. If the bubbles break the surface, then that CO2 just adds to the headspace pressure, and only slowly absorbs into the beer.

I'm leery of the gas into the liquid tube method due to personal experience. I took a partially carbonated keg into my LHBS for storage prior to having it go to a festival. I told the employee that it probably needed more carbonation, so he hooked up a CO2 line (with liquid QD) to the gas post. We immediately saw beer shooting out some kind of vent port in the regulator. We forgot to vent the keg before hooking it up. Lucky for me, I wasn't' the one who connected the CO2 line.

Brew on :mug:
 

Pkrd

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If I leave the gas on the liquid post overnight then when the keg warms up (it sits outside the kegerator) beer gets pushed out the line. Stupidly I’ve managed that twice though it’s never got as far as the regulator.
 

00Seven

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Here’s my situation and I apologize if it’s already been covered but 25 pages is a lot to sort thru. 5 gallon keg I had hooked to gas thru out tube at room temp for 2 1/2 weeks. I shook it and had it carbed at the level I wanted (probably a little over carbed because my regulator bounced around a touch). I shook the keg several times throughout to make sure full equaliribim. Then I hooked up the keg in my fridge when I had room to gas and beer lines (psi set properly and everything balanced correctly) and chilled for 24 hours. Poured first round and it was 90% foam. I bled the keg a few times and tried again the next day and it’s still 80% foam. I’m trying the “over carbonated keg” method from the other sticky now. Normally I would keg then carb and chill all at once but I’ve added two more kegs so I can reduce my down time and let a few beers age in my office a bit.

The first pour I didn’t bleed anything just had my gas line hooked up and set to 10psi. My assumption was 38 psi at 74 degrees would translate to 10 psi at 37 and I wouldn’t have to do anything. Obviously I was wrong. Looking at my regulator it moved up to 39.5 area which would put me close to 3 volumes at 74 which is a bit much but not crazy, I do prefer slightly more carb.

My question is how do I avoid this in the future? I want to carb to 2.7 volumes at around 74 degrees, I have a dedicated tank and regulator, let the beer sit in my office for 2-6 weeks or however long, then when I have space in my fridge add the keg and chill and serve 24 hours later and not deal with the foam. Do I need to bleed the keg more before I chill and serve? Do I need to carb lower then up the carb to desired levels in my fridge over 2 days? Ideally I can do a swap and do a perfect pour 24 hours later. Any ideas?

Thanks
 

doug293cz

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Assuming you don't have foaming problems with beers that have been on tap for a while, you probably just need to chill for 2-3 days in order for the CO2 in the headspace to dissolve into the beer, and to make sure the beer has actually gotten down to 37°F.

My calculations put 38 psi @ 74°F equal to 13.25 psi @ 37°F (2.75 volumes.) 10 psi @ 37°F gives 2.43 volumes.

Brew on :mug:
 

00Seven

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Assuming you don't have foaming problems with beers that have been on tap for a while, you probably just need to chill for 2-3 days in order for the CO2 in the headspace to dissolve into the beer, and to make sure the beer has actually gotten down to 37°F.

My calculations put 38 psi @ 74°F equal to 13.25 psi @ 37°F (2.75 volumes.) 10 psi @ 37°F gives 2.43 volumes.

Brew on :mug:
Fridge actually closer to 36. It’s close enough. I don’t too hung up. I don’t normally have foam issues. I went thru that PhD website thing and fine tuned it all. So I just need to let it chill longer and my hopes of doing a 24 hour swap won’t work. That’s ok I just need to plan for it.

Thank you
 
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I shook the keg several times throughout to make sure full equaliribim.
This part of your process seems unnecessary and is probably counter productive. At this point agitating the keg creates cavitation which provides the CO2 an easy way to come out of solution. You can test this with a simple experiment. Next time you have a can or bottle of beer, vigorously shake it prior to opening. Just like that can or bottle it'll take time for the settle back to equilibrium.
 
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4of7

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IMG_20180506_091222.jpg Beer troll giving big thank you to thread starter,bobby is the one who helped me with this.Yes it is a pump.Inline carb steps. I do like it as i can use my gear instead of buying more for this..There are steps to do this ,you can see my pumps all have priming valves ...The main step to get the hoses primed ,stone turn on,then purge the keg..I will purge a few times in the begining...Before i even do any of this i will do the same thing with pbw ,but without the stone ,rinse,then starsan...it is keg washing ,,kegerator line cleaning
 
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nice layout. this should help everyone that has questions regarding carbonation.
Well. I hope that you CAN help! I'm about to brew a Bass clone and thought it would be a nice touch for the holidays to infuse it with "helium". Now I've combed thru you tube for forced carbonation methods using helium but the only vids. that I find is folks sampling one. My thoughts were to bottle half of it in bottles and the other half keg it in one of my 2 1/2 gallon kegs. I believe the keg would work best under forced carbonation in leu of Co2 I would use Helium! Being that this is a different gas I realize it will have a different saturation rate and requires unique pressures. Any help here would be appreciated gang! I hope to begin brewing very soon!
 

day_trippr

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No idea why anyone would do it, but good luck to those who try...

"Helium is about 700 times less soluble in water as compared to carbon dioxide. It is one of the least soluble gases in water and only about 0.0016 g of Helium would get dissolved in a litre of beer. While, at the same conditions, 2.5 g of carbon dioxide is usually present in a litre of beer."

Cheers!
 

doug293cz

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No idea why anyone would do it, but good luck to those who try...

"Helium is about 700 times less soluble in water as compared to carbon dioxide. It is one of the least soluble gases in water and only about 0.0016 g of Helium would get dissolved in a litre of beer. While, at the same conditions, 2.5 g of carbon dioxide is usually present in a litre of beer."

Cheers!
Actually, Helium is ~1900 times less soluble than CO2 at 0°C (32°F), ~1500 times less soluble at 10°C (50°F), and ~1100 times less soluble at 20°C (68°F), but the fact that you can't dissolve much He in water (or beer) is indisputable.

Also a "volume" of CO2 is a bit less than 2 g/L (2 g/kg, 1.977 g/L for the truly nerdy), so a beer with 2.5 volumes of carbonation has just under 5 g/L of CO2.

In fairness to @day_trippr , the errors are in the reference linked by day_trippr.

Brew on :mug:
 

4of7

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Interesting! Just a Chugger pump, huh?
How do you pre-purge the system with CO2? Liquid flush or just flush it out with CO2 before connecting the QDs to the keg?

Do you like the way it comes out?
Bobby would be able to explain it better than me.
 
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Actually, Helium is ~1900 times less soluble than CO2 at 0°C (32°F), ~1500 times less soluble at 10°C (50°F), and ~1100 times less soluble at 20°C (68°F), but the fact that you can't dissolve much He in water (or beer) is indisputable.

Also a "volume" of CO2 is a bit less than 2 g/L (2 g/kg, 1.977 g/L for the truly nerdy), so a beer with 2.5 volumes of carbonation has just under 5 g/L of CO2.

In fairness to @day_trippr , the errors are in the reference linked by day_trippr.

Brew on :mug:
Great! Im aware that its a gimmicy thing to do but several breweries have tried it and it also wish to try it. Without engaging into deep debate on the subject I gather from what you have said that attempting to carbonate at similar pressures and temps as co2 would not work due to less solubility? perhaps you might suggest something that may work?
 

day_trippr

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Actually, Helium is ~1900 times less soluble than CO2 at 0°C (32°F)...[...]
Still, the linked content was close enough to make the point ;)
This person is going to need some kind of serious pressure vessel to achieve "heliumization" - and end up with a beer that can't even be served without a major commotion :D

Cheers!
 
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Actually, Helium is ~1900 times less soluble than CO2 at 0°C (32°F), ~1500 times less soluble at 10°C (50°F), and ~1100 times less soluble at 20°C (68°F), but the fact that you can't dissolve much He in water (or beer) is indisputable.

Also a "volume" of CO2 is a bit less than 2 g/L (2 g/kg, 1.977 g/L for the truly nerdy), so a beer with 2.5 volumes of carbonation has just under 5 g/L of CO2.

In fairness to @day_trippr , the errors are in the reference linked by day_trippr.

Brew on :mug:
OK,I was the one that began this thread and Im interested in a hands on reply. With all this talk of how insoluble helium is vs. carbon dioxide it sounds as if a mix of the two gasses is needed to achieve the desired result. I have spoken to a few pro brewers currently making a living at brewing beer. and when they actually approach the idea with an open mind some have suggested to carb. w/ Co2 and dispense with helium. Yet this idea I believe would result in the helium evaporating as soon as its exposed to open air. This gives way to carbonating with Co2 and then "adding" the helium on top of that at the lowest temp. possible. Or feeding both gasses into a splitter and leave it all in the fridge for a day or two. Its my thought that the two gasses would be absorbed at their own rate and be closer to achieving the desired effect. Thoughts?
 

day_trippr

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Thoughts? Using Helium with beer is a complete waste of effort and money would be the first to come to mind...

Cheers!
 
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