Belgian Tripel Karmeliet Clone

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After 10 days the SG of the batch with Bosteels yeast dropped to 1021, whereas the reference batch with Nottingham yeast was already at 1012. Taste of the Bosteels batch was better, more mellow. Too early to say if it will be similar to commercial Karmeliet.

Any news on your FG for the bosteels one? Harvested the yeast from a couple bottles and stepped it up, plan to brew a clone tomorrow, wondering what kind of FG I should expect. Also, if the yeast poops out so early, I'm a bit concerned about bottle conditioning, wondering if you've already bottled yours (and if yes, are they carbing properly?).

Cheers!
 
And just when I thought that I killed this lively thread!
I am really brewing like a monk with this beer, in other words: it is still lagering and I did not measure FG again. I would not worry about this for two reasons: Bosteels beers are known to be quite sweet and FG of commercial Karmeliet and Kwak are remarkably high, (2) I did have some fermentation since last post + a friend of mine achieved lower FG with this yeast (1015-ish?). I plan to bottle-condition most of the batch in order to be able to compare it with bottle-conditioned commercial Karmeliet.
I have to warn you though: yeast strain is very sulphury, meaning it smell like manure. Don't worry, it will all go away.

Regards, Freek
 
I have to warn you though: yeast strain is very sulphury, meaning it smell like manure. Don't worry, it will all go away.

Timely, I was getting concerned by the smell coming from my ferm chamber, smelled amazing this morning, very fruity, but it really started to smell like rotten eggs earlier this evening... happy to see it's normal. Brewed it yesterday, followed the recipe, I however cranked up the coriander a bit, .35oz seemed a bit low to me. Will update the thread once I reach FG.

Thanks again for the insights
 
According to Brew Like a Monk, Karmeliet is fermented with 2 yeasts. Wether or not that is 2 yeasts for the primary fermentation or one for primary and a second for re-fermentation in the bottle, I do not know. For those of you culturing this from the bottle, how do you know you aren't just using their bottling yeast?

BTW the FG of Karmeliet is 1.015. I shook the carbonation out of a sample and measured it with my hydrometer to find this out.
 
According to Brew Like a Monk, Karmeliet is fermented with 2 yeasts. Wether or not that is 2 yeasts for the primary fermentation or one for primary and a second for re-fermentation in the bottle, I do not know. For those of you culturing this from the bottle, how do you know you aren't just using their bottling yeast?

It's possible that we're fiddling with a bottling yeast, but something tells me Bosteels re-yeasts the bottles with whatever yeast(s) they have on hand. Too expensive/complicated to keep multiple strains tightly separate in the same brewery, especially when all your brews use the same yeast(s) (Karmeliet, Kwak...). I brew a Delirium Tremens (Huyghe) clone on a regular basis using the yeast harvested from the bottles, and the taste is spot on. By the way, they also use multiple yeasts, and several others on this forum managed to find out that they all end up in the dregs.

My Karmeliet just stopped fermenting after a bit less than a week, fermentation was quite vigorous, and the others were right, the strain(s) is(are) very sulfury. Bulk aging right now, I plan to lager it later this month, then bottle. We'll have to wait September or even October for a taste test.

One thing I realized after the fact: Bosteels uses Styrian Goldings and Saaz, like most Belgians, and not Hallertau. I suppose the recipe posted by the OP was designed based on the fact that he's not using the Bosteels yeast, and maybe that's why he picked this hop, but since I'm using the real yeast, I plan to switch hops next time I brew this one.

Cheers!
 
Too expensive/complicated to keep multiple strains tightly separate in the same brewery, especially when all your brews use the same yeast(s) (Karmeliet, Kwak...).

My Karmeliet just stopped fermenting after a bit less than a week, fermentation was quite vigorous, and the others were right, the strain(s) is(are) very sulfury. Bulk aging right now, I plan to lager it later this month, then bottle. We'll have to wait September or even October for a taste test.

Cheers!

I am not arguing that you do not have the correct primary yeast. I hope you have the right yeast because I'd like to try it someday but I have seen nothing to convince me that his is indeed the primary yeast.

BTW it's apparently not too expensive to keep two yeasts going in the same brewery. Many european breweries do this and recondition in the bottle with a lager strain because they don't require a special warm room for bottle conditioning. Primary yeasts do require warm bottle conditioning for various periods of time because of the existing abv at the time of bottling.

Lager strains are well known for their prolific sulphur production, so you have that FWIW.

As to the original recipe. you are right on the hops being styrian and saaz. The grain bill, however should include a portion of Barley (pilsner), wheat and oats. All three in both malted and unmalted forms.
 
I am not arguing that you do not have the correct primary yeast. I hope you have the right yeast because I'd like to try it someday but I have seen nothing to convince me that his is indeed the primary yeast.

BTW it's apparently not too expensive to keep two yeasts going in the same brewery. Many european breweries do this and recondition in the bottle with a lager strain because they don't require a special warm room for bottle conditioning. Primary yeasts do require warm bottle conditioning for various periods of time because of the existing abv at the time of bottling.

Lager strains are well known for their prolific sulphur production, so you have that FWIW.

You're correct, there's no way to tell whether the yeast I harvested is the real deal, but since most Belgian breweries bottle with the primary strain(s), I'm hopeful (Chimay, Huyghe, Duvel, Achouffe to name a few).

You also do bring up a good point about the sulfur smell, I could have very well harvested a lager yeast (now you got me a bit worried). On the other hand, others who have used it apparently ended up with a fairly high FG (1.015-ish), just like the real Karmeliet... you would think a lager yeast would take that beer much lower than that, especially when fermented at 70F+, and given the fact that lager yeast can also metabolize maltotriose, raffinose and melibiose. Since fermentation seems to have stopped, I'll take a gravity reading later this week, I'll let you know where it ended up.
 
But if they do bottle with a lager yeast for bottle refermentation they'd be doing it well under 70F.

I'll be watching to see how things turn out. I've been working on the recipe for some time now and have a grain bill and spicing that I will use for the first iteration. The yeast is the biggest sticking point. Without the real yeast I think I'm going to use WY3787 or WLP575 (a blend of WLP500, 530, and 550). FWIW Northern Brewer uses WY3522 for their clone.
 
But if they do bottle with a lager yeast for bottle refermentation they'd be doing it well under 70F.

Ok, but then we would end up with bottle bombs since eventually the bottles sit at 70F+ for months before you buy them. Maybe I'm missing your point :)

The yeast is the biggest sticking point. Without the real yeast I think I'm going to use WY3787 or WLP575 (a blend of WLP500, 530, and 550). FWIW Northern Brewer uses WY3522 for their clone.

If you can wait a couple of days, I'll do a FG reading, will let you know if the taste is close (it's so young, it will likely taste green, but you never know). LeFreek will most likely be done way before me, maybe he can chime in...

As for the yeasts you mention:
  • Based on my experience, 3522 is very attenuative, I'm sure the end result would taste great, but I doubt it would taste like Karmeliet, would most likely taste more like Chouffe, i.e. a dry tripel.
  • I attempted a clone in the past using 1388 based on this recipe, again, tasted great, like a very fruity Duvel, but nothing like the real deal. For some reason, bottles took over 4 mos to carb with this recipe, might be due the fact that I ended up with an ABV higher than expected.
  • IMO WLP575 will yield better results than 3787/530 alone, but that's me.

Since the Bosteels yeast poops out early, you might want to mash hotter than usual if you plan to use another yeast, or skip the sugar addition, otherwise you might end up with a beer much dryer than the real deal. My $0.02 ;)
 
Ok, but then we would end up with bottle bombs since eventually the bottles sit at 70F+ for months before you buy them. Maybe I'm missing your point :)

There will be no bottle bomb if there are no more sugars fermentable by the bottling yeast. Same as any home-brew bottled with various fermentables. A lager yeast would ferment all it could at lower temperatures.
 
There will be no bottle bomb if there are no more sugars fermentable by the bottling yeast. Same as any home-brew bottled with various fermentables. A lager yeast would ferment all it could at lower temperatures.

But the lager yeast would also ferment all the unfermentables left by the ale yeast, would create tons of CO2, way more than needed to carb the beer. Unless they add the lager yeast to the wort once the ale yeast poops out, let it ferment whatever's left, then prime/bottle the beer. But again, if they were to do that, IMO the lager yeast would take the beer much lower than 1.015, it's a highly fermentable grain bill.

Oh well, let's put this one to rest for now, will give you an update once I taste it.
 
@anh6513 and Ettels4

Good discussion and thanks a lot for new info. Could you give details on the source of (1) Bosteels using 2 yeasts for Karmeliet, (2) hops being Styrian Goldings and Saaz instead of Hallertau?

About 10 years ago, Karmeliet bottle yeast had a very good reputation amongst homebrewers in the BeNeLux for brewing Belgian styles. People were very succesfull in cloning Kwak with this yeast, so we were pretty sure that it was the primary strain then. But Ettels4 is right: we cannnot be sure that it still is. First taste after primary fermentation was very good though.

I moved my batch with Bosteels yeast to the fridge yesterday for 1 week of lagering @ 1 degree Celsius. Next Friday or Saturday I will bottle condition about half and transfer the other half to a keg. If I speed up the forced carbonation, I can have a first comparison against commercial Karmeliet next Sunday or so.

Regards, Freek
 
Could you give details on the source of (1) Bosteels using 2 yeasts for Karmeliet, (2) hops being Styrian Goldings and Saaz instead of Hallertau?

Can't comment on the yeast, but the styrian/saaz combo is mentioned on several sites (here for instance). Most belgian tripels/goldens use this combo anyway, I don't know many that use hallertau.

Wikipedia mentions styrians only (link).

Will do a gravity reading later this am, stay tuned.
 
Just took a gravity reading, beer is currently sitting at 1.014. Pitched at 67F and slowly ramped it up to 78F over the last 2 weeks. OG was 1.072, so current ABV is right below 8% (the original clocks at 8.4%). I'll do another reading in 2 days, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to end up much lower than that. In other words, it's confirmed, this yeast does not attenuate as much as your average Belgian strain.

As for the taste, it tastes really good, but more like a wit at this stage, strong orange taste. I'm sure it will tone down over time, but if I brew this one again, I'll use less orange peel. For what it's worth, I used fresh organic orange, lots of flavor, maybe that's why.

I don't taste the coriander at all, even though I cranked up the amount compared to the original recipe. The licorice does come through, but it's very subdued.

Will let it age a couple of weeks in primary, lager it, bottle it, and update in a couple of months.
 
The hops and yeast info both came from "Brew Like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus. Also of note from that book, primary ferment is @75F for a week and then its secondaried for a month @32F. The only adjunct is sucrose (table sugar). IBUs are 20. OG is 1.081. "...includes a solid dose of unspecified spices." Coriander is the only obvious one I can pick out but there are certainly more.
 
Couple of hours ago (remember ... it's 5 o'clock somewhere) we tasted the Karmeliet clone brewed with bottle yeast after 1.5 days of forced carbonation, and compared it with the real thing bottle conditioned. Attached picture shows clone on the left and commercial Karmeliet on the right. The clone is drinkable, but not very similar. Highly unlikely that the primary yeast strain is currently used for bottle conditioning. No sulphur in smell or taste, but the ester profile is quite different. Interesting experiment, but now I am stuck with 25 liters of not very good tripel.

We also noticed that the original has way more coriander smell and taste than the clone attempt. Anh6513 is right to crank it up.

I will probably try to find someone who preserved the yeast when primary and bottling yeast were still the same via Dutch and Belgian fora. Especially for my Kwak clone attempt in coming brewing season.

karmeliet_clone.jpg
 
Interesting experiment, but now I am stuck with 25 liters of not very good tripel

I'm afraid mine will also taste quite different based on a sample I recently took for a gravity reading. Lagering it right now...

It's likely the bottling yeast is different after all, but the issue also comes from to the fact that we used the wrong hops, and I'm sure the suggested spice blend is far from being similar to the one Bosteels uses. Oh well.

Will update once it's bottle conditioned.

UPDATE (08/19): The beer has been lagering for 3 days @ 35F, and somehow, I'm getting some airlock activity, very odd. I thought the beer might be degasing since it was shaken a bit while I moved it, but given the massive drop in temperature, it's highly unlikely. So, the other possible explanation is that the yeast might have resumed some fermentation. Another hint that the bottling yeast could very well be a lager yeast...
 
Damn, thats too bad. I was hoping this would have worked out. When I finally get around to making this I am probably going to go with WLP575. Seems like a beer like this is going to take a few batches to get even close. You need spicing that will be similar and a yeast that will be similar and still need to figure out how to balance the mash temp, sucrose percentage, and grain bill in order to come out with a similar flavor and FG. I'm just hoping that in the meantime I can make some good if not cloned tripels to drink.
 
Final update: I flushed all the beer with the "Bosteels" yeast from the bottle. The reference beer with Nottingham yeast is drinkable, but too dry. Alas, not all experiments are successful.
 
Final update as well: after maturing the beer for over a month, the sulfur smell disappeared, and the beer turned out pretty decent after all. Nothing like Karmeliet, but I brought a 5 gallon keg to a wedding, and it was all gone within an hour (we had other beers on tap, this keg was by far the most popular). Tasted almost like a wheat beer, most likely because of the orange peel, I might have overdone it a bit. I don't think I would brew this one again, but at least I didn't have to dump the beer :)
 
GordonT (or any one else)

Hi I just finish to read all this discussion and I'm very excited to brew a batch of this Karmeliet clone but after all the tunings I'm a bit confused about what is the last (most close clone) recipe you can share. Could you put your last suggestion recipe just like in the beginning of this topic??? :)
 
GordonT (or any one else)

Hi I just finish to read all this discussion and I'm very excited to brew a batch of this Karmeliet clone but after all the tunings I'm a bit confused about what is the last (most close clone) recipe you can share. Could you put your last suggestion recipe just like in the beginning of this topic??? :)

Depends if you want to go with the original recipe, which most people that have tried gave good ratings to. Or for the highjacked thread version, which apparently didn't turn out all that well.

I didn't say anything about highjacking as it was happening because I have been distracted by other business for several months but I do think it is quite rude to take a thread dedicated to one thing, and turn it into something else.

If you want to experiment, go ahead. But create your own thread and your own recipe.

Thanks to all that have so far enjoyed and commented on the original.
 
Hi, thanks for the quick reply. Amm well I would like to try with your original recipe but as far as I understood you made some tunings on your own recipe, so, if I make the original one with the sugar on the primary fermentation and I don't know aha else you recommend? it will be close enough to the original Tripel Karmeliet ?

(sorry if my english is not very well :p)

Thank you for your time.
 
Hi, thanks for the quick reply. Amm well I would like to try with your original recipe but as far as I understood you made some tunings on your own recipe, so, if I make the original one with the sugar on the primary fermentation and I don't know aha else you recommend? it will be close enough to the original Tripel Karmeliet ?

(sorry if my english is not very well :p)

Thank you for your time.

It is not an exact replica. The original has a very flowery nose and initial flavour that I can't get, but, this is very close and a good template to begin with.
 
It is not an exact replica. The original has a very flowery nose and initial flavour that I can't get, but, this is very close and a good template to begin with.

So first post has the latest recipe, can you please confirm Gordon ? Thanks a lot. I tried this as my first recipe but I didn't get the OG (this was my first beer) so I am going to do it again since now I got more experience with my electric setup so can control the process much much better!

Great work!
 
So first post has the latest recipe, can you please confirm Gordon ? Thanks a lot. I tried this as my first recipe but I didn't get the OG (this was my first beer) so I am going to do it again since now I got more experience with my electric setup so can control the process much much better!

Great work!

The first post is the basic recipe and you won't go wrong with that. In other posts I mention various tweaks but they are not overly important.

Read through and mark my comments and you'll have the full story.

Cheers
 
Hi, again :). I have a couple of questions more, amm as the wheat is malted in this recipe, are the oats malted as well?, are the oats flaked or in grain? and finally, is the clear white syrup the corn one?
Thank you, and sorry if this questions are very basic :/.

Cheers
 
Hi, again :). I have a couple of questions more, amm as the wheat is malted in this recipe, are the oats malted as well?, are the oats flaked or in grain? and finally, is the clear white syrup the corn one?
Thank you, and sorry if this questions are very basic :/.

Cheers

The oats are not malted. In the original recipe they use unmalted versions of the base malt, the wheat malt and the oats. Too much trouble for us amateurs though.
 
Hi, I'm just about to make this recipe and was wondering what the sugar amount was to add to the fermentation vessel after krausen is down? I figured about 1# of sugars boiled/cooled. Any comment is appreciated.
Thanks!
 
>I usually use Ardennes yeast with this but am trying Wyeast 1214 fermented at a high temperature.

Gordon can you tell me a bit more about the fermentation profile for both yeasts ? I can control the fermentation pretty well.
Is Ardennes still your to go yeast for this ?
 
What I loved about Karmeliet was what I described as a "chalky dryness." Most tripels are too sweet for me.
Does anyone know what I can do to get that taste? I imagine it has to do with yeast strain and temp
 
What I loved about Karmeliet was what I described as a "chalky dryness." Most tripels are too sweet for me.
Does anyone know what I can do to get that taste? I imagine it has to do with yeast strain and temp

If you want dryness then you want higher attenuation which means making the wort more fermentable, using a high attenuating yeast and the right temperature. Not sure about the chalkiness though.

I still find Karmeliet quite sweet tbh but I'm more of a strong golden / saison fan
 
>I usually use Ardennes yeast with this but am trying Wyeast 1214 fermented at a high temperature.

Gordon can you tell me a bit more about the fermentation profile for both yeasts ? I can control the fermentation pretty well.
Is Ardennes still your to go yeast for this ?

I can't say I prefer one over the other at this point and truth be told I don't taste a lot of difference between them.

If you want a detailed analysis of the differences look on Wyeasts' web site. I will probably continue to use Ardennes because I always use my yeasts more than once and Ardennes suits very well a range of the beers I brew.
 

To me the main tastes in this beer are floral and malt. I do consider this beer sweetish too, but balanced by the noble hops early addition. Wonderful all around.

If you are detecting chalky dryness I would assume the yeast is doing that as this beer is not all that dry, not nearly as dry as many in any case.
 
Hi Gordon,
Are you still using the Ardennes yeast for this recipe? If so is this yeast WLP545 (or similar to)?
Cheers!

That yeast has quite a different flavour profile. If you want to experience the difference as accurately as possible, spend a little extra and ferment half of your beer with each yeast and then do some side by side tastings.
 
I apologize if someone already asked this as I didn't want to read through all 119 posts but what do you use as clear white syrup in your recipe?
 
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