Just one question before I go for my first cider!

[WheeledGoat]

Hey, all!

I'm about to tackle my first cider, but I'm a little confused. Seems the more I read, the more confused I get! I guess we're back to "making cider is simple - it's up to us to make it complicated".

I'll be getting some unpasturized, fresh-pressed, no-preservative cider from a little orchard down the road. I've already got Wyeast Cider Yeast in my fridge ready to go.

I'm inclined to pasteurize this myself in my beer kettle - hold it at 150F (or whatever temp pasteurizing is... gotta look it up), add 1/2 cup splenda (going for a slightly sweet, Woodchuck-type cider), put it in the primary and pitch the yeast.

But I've read about using campden tablets - they kill the yeast, right? But does campden kill non-yeast nasties that might be in there?

Is my above plan a good one?

Ultimately, I plan to keg this - where it seems like an overwhelming majority of people bottle ciders. Is there a reason for that?

Thanks so much for any input you have for me!!!

 

[lapaglia]

DO NOT HEAT PASTURIZE your cider. 1 Crushed camden tablet per gallon mixed in to the liquid 24 hours before you pitch the yeast will kill all the little beasties in there. Non-yeast nasties included. If you are going to use pectic enzime to help it clear put that in 12 hours after the camden and 12 hours before you pitch the yeast. Do this and you will be find. Heating the liquid hot enough to kill things will set the pectic so it will never clear. It also will change the taste I have heard. Its not needed since you are using camden and camden is a lot easier than heat to 170 and hold for X minutes.

 

[Tusch]

He's got it right about heating it and using the pectic enzyme, though it might not be necessary.

I might even hold on the splenda. Yeah in the end you might want a sweet product, but I would suggest fermenting without it. That way when it is done, you can taste it, and if you like it dry its good to go. If you want it sweet, you can sweeten to taste then, getting it exactly how you like it.

For the kegging, a lot of people either don't have kegging equipment (myself) or just don't feel the need or desire to have their cider on tap. But if you want it keg, there is no reason at all to not do it, plenty of people do, its just a personal preference if you have the capability.

Best of luck, and as long as you are sanitary, its hard to mess this stuff up.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

+ 1 on what tusch & lapaglia said.

 

[oldtimeydave]

Hey, all!
I'm about to tackle my first cider, but I'm a little confused. Seems the more I read, the more confused I get! I guess we're back to "making cider is simple - it's up to us to make it complicated".

If cider making were simple more people be doing. Real cider making is akin to wine making. Anyone think that is simple? Doing it right takes patience, record keeping, proper timing, proper temps, proper nutrients, adequate aging.

However cider making can be easy, light hearted and care free but the odds of a great batch and recreating that are a crap shoot.

I'll be getting some unpasturized, fresh-pressed, no-preservative cider from a little orchard down the road. I've already got Wyeast Cider Yeast in my fridge ready to go.

I'm inclined to pasteurize this myself in my beer kettle - hold it at 150F (or whatever temp pasteurizing is... gotta look it up), add 1/2 cup splenda (going for a slightly sweet, Woodchuck-type cider), put it in the primary and pitch the yeast.

Seriously... Do not do this. Do not cook your cider. Cider was the safest of drinks when not even water wasn't safe to drink. Cider was safe because of the fermentation process which killed all the pathogens.

But I've read about using campden tablets - they kill the yeast, right? But does campden kill non-yeast nasties that might be in there?

Hell if you boil it you shouldn't need to take this step. But this is the step I'd take instead of boiling. Why use Campden? It kills or stuns the natural yeast and kills bacteria which allows you to pitch your selected yeast 24 hours later and give it a better chance to become the dominate yeast.

Is my above plan a good one?

Think I covered which parts weren't.

Ultimately, I plan to keg this - where it seems like an overwhelming majority of people bottle ciders. Is there a reason for that?

No reason other than saving and gifting. Once you tap a keg its gonna or should be gone in a week or so. Cider makers do this once a year using fresh pressed juice which in most cases they pressed themselves. The fortunate ones are able to select specific apple varieties which will define their up coming year's blends. So it is nice to have them around for a while. A counter pressure bottle filler would allow one to bottle from a keg however.

I'll do both bottling and kegging but then again I'll have 200 gallons or so. For most of my batches each variety will be fermented separate and blended after aging, I may even get to oak barrel age a blend or two this year.

 

[Yooper]

One other point I didn't see mentioned- if you're kegging, why not sweeten with regular sugar or honey? After fermentation, you can stabilize the cider with campden and sorbate and then sweeten to taste before kegging. Natural sweeteners taste a lot better than splenda.

 

[Tusch]

Good point yooper, I completely glossed over that one haha

 

[RugenBrau]

can you add the pectin enzyme with the campden tabs?

 

[Tusch]

Add the campden, then 12 hours later add the pectic enzyme, then 12 hours after that pitch your yeast.

 

[WheeledGoat]

Sweet!! Thanks for all the help!

Excellent point about using regular sweetners if I'm kegging - but I'm mostly making this for the wife, and she (and I) actually prefer diet drinks. We don't like regular colas and the stickiness they leave in your mouth... so I might just stick with Splenda anyway!

Add the campden, then 12 hours later add the pectic enzyme, then 12 hours after that pitch your yeast.

There seems to be 2 camps on this - some say to do it all together, others say to separate the pectic enzymes and do it 12hrs in. Does anybody know why or have a theory as to how this would make any difference??

Lastly, what about aging?? Oldtimeydave mentioned that "proper aging" was important, but didn't elaborate. I was kinda under the impression that one fermentation was complete and the ETOH was present, cider was ready (since there's no caramel, hops, or other funky stuff to tone down). Am I wrong?

 

[oldtimeydave]

That is up to you. Ask yourself "what are you trying to achieve?". If it is a quick turnover brew then by all means do what you gotta do. Most folks that make cider seriously would age sometimes up to a year. If you asked me I'd say you could start to bottle as early as 3 months if you were in a hurry. I'll probably give mine 6 months or so.

 

[Tusch]

It will only get better the longer you are able to hold off on drinking it, well up to a point some argue it doesn't change much after a year or two or three whatever, depends on the brew. I suggest bottling some in 12oz bottles so that you can sample it, and when it is really tasting great, that keg will just be calling your name.

 

[vapor2020]

If you are looking for a sweeter cider, use hefeweizen or sweet mead yeast. These don't attenuate as well and allow for a bit of sweetness in the end product without back-sweetening. I have used hefe yeast several times now and love the way that it works.

And Oldtimeydave, It's me, Dan Smith. I knew that had to be you when I read your rant about the complexities of cider-making. We will have to do a brew and/or cider swap next time I am back in Oly.

 

[Yooper]

The pectic enzyme/campden/yeast question I can answer!

First of all, you add the campden/sulfites right away to kill the wild yeast and bacteria, etc that are on the fruits or in the juice. Pectic enzyme can be affected by sulfite levels- that's why you wait 12 hours before adding the pectic enzyme. It can actually be stunted by sulfur dioxide. Yeast are also affected by sulfite levels, so you don't add it at the same time as the campden. You also don't want to add it at the same time as the pectic enzyme. So, 24 hours after the campden is the perfect time for the yeast.

That's how we come up with adding the pectic enzyme 12 hours after the campden, and then pitch the yeast 12 hours later.

 

[lapaglia]

There is a theory that campden interferes with the pectic enzyme. It's easier to split the two apart by 12 hours and be safe than to do it together and find out that you should have split it. I am sure there is a better explanation but I like the safe side of things like this. Its really easy to do this one.

 

[oldtimeydave]

What up Dan??? Yeah talk to me in about 6 months and I'll be able and willing to trade.

Or for the sweeter and since you are thinking of kegging you can sweeten after it is finished to taste, sorbate and then force carbonate in your Corney with your Co2.

 

[WheeledGoat]

Far out, solid & right-on, Yooper! Nice answer! :rockin:

hefeweizen or sweet mead yeast, eh vapor?? wow. so much to learn. silly me - I went & ordered a Wyeast Cider Yeast smackpack! I was afraid to get a yeasty beer taste instead of a cider taste. (The "Cider" yeasts aren't far off from dry white wine yeasts, right?)

Thanks for the info, folks!! You guys rock!

 

[RugenBrau]

Thanks forthe answer on the campden/pectin enzyme. 've been adding then together the last three years. Yikes!

 

[vapor2020]

The "Cider" yeasts aren't far off from dry white wine yeasts, right?

The cider yeasts I have tried finish at or below 1.000 (very dry) and the hefe or sweet cider can finish out at 1.010 or so (fairly sweet but not sticky). I have heard of people using sweet mead and still getting 1.000, but I use hefe and it always has worked for me. Like oldtimeydave said, if you put it in the keg you have the option of backsweetening. Kill off the yeast with campden and you can add honey or apple juice concentrate to add back a little sweetness.

 

[WheeledGoat]

What is the deal with the campden tabs? I get it that they work for 12-24hrs, and then they evaporate out? I wasn't sure, but the caustic smell made me leave the bucket loosely covered (put a dishtowel over the top secured by a bungee cord instead of the bucket's lid).

 

[Yooper]

What is the deal with the campden tabs? I get it that they work for 12-24hrs, and then they evaporate out? I wasn't sure, but the caustic smell made me leave the bucket loosely covered (put a dishtowel over the top secured by a bungee cord instead of the bucket's lid).

No, they work for alot longer than 24 hours. The sulfur dioxide gradually disapates with time, that's why you have to re-add it when you rack or bottle. I usually add it at every other racking, and at bottling, when I make wines. That sulfur smell is good stuff- it proves that your k-metabisulfite is active and killing wild yeast and bacteria that would ruin your cider.