It's official starting my own brewing business!
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akthor
Well-Known Member
Just working and still working on the house and Brewing setup. Hope to be up brewing beer again here soon. Will post pics of completed brewery and bar within the next couple of months.
I just read this thread this week. Interesting,
I was just wondering what the reasoning is for not allowing a brewery to contain a residence?
I was just wondering what the reasoning is for not allowing a brewery to contain a residence?
ImNoExpert
Well-Known Member
I'm no expert... but it's probably because federal and state agents need to have access to the books and beer for inspections and if it's in a private residence they can't just show up and expect entry and inspection.
MuddyCreek
Well-Known Member
Amazing!
Alright. So I have some "Thanks" to put out there. Cape and others gave some very good information about the desperate importance of looking into local, state and federal code before you dive too deeply into a brewery business venture. When I first started dreaming about Muddy Creek Brewery I took that to heart. And I must admit this VERY THREAD was an important part of that. I have Akthor and his trials and difficulties to thank for our relative ease into licensing and code navigation.
Which brings me to my favorite part of this response, "Quote-foo"
What I wanted to point out here is that Akthor's critical mistake (and this has been stated, but perhaps not hammered home so bluntly, so completely and in as crystal clear a manner as I'm about to try to do now) is that he did not initially contact his local, state and federal zoning and TTB representatives to determine precisely what he needed to do in order to get his brewery up and running.
And that's it. That's all. He did SO much great work. He built SUCH an amazing place. He did all those amazing things with the property. His only lapse was a lack of experience in terms of the codes and licensing and the "legalese". But the really amazing and wonderful thing about his thread is that it does exactly what he sort of kids about near the end. It serves as a "cautionary tale." There are processes and steps to take in order to get your brewery up and running and most of them are slow, tedious and expensive, but keep in mind, while the government is slow, they aren't averse to you getting up and running.
Those people WANT you to start a new business. They WANT your taxable income. It's the ****ing GOVERNMENT! The faster you get going, the more money you make, the more money THEY make. Is it bureaucracy? YA! But you CAN do things to minimize the hassle and speed the process up. And the very best thing you can do is contact them from the very start and ask them what their requirements are.
Please, for the LOVE OF GOD Akthor, do this. Do it for your SWMBO, do it for yourself, do it for your children, and if your beer is ANY GOOD AT ALL, do it for your future customers. I cannot be any more blunt or any clearer. I am not being a hater. I am not wishing you ill. In fact, I am attempting to lead you on the only path that can possibly move you toward success. I truly appreciate that folks from Maine have a unique sense of rebellion and stubborn-ness. (Although I'd argue that's not at all unique.) But you can see from that comment that I did indeed suffer through every damn post of this agonizing thread just hoping and praying that you'd get your **** together and talk to the proper people about your permits and your zoning.
So please. In your new venture, do that. And don't be mad at me. Recognize that I come from a place of kindness and appreciation. Your struggles helped me to avoid the same. My path was much easier. We still had a couple surprises. The sprinkler system threw us for a loop and cost a ton of money, but we found out about it early enough that it didn't slow down our opening our overrun our budget. The electrical restrictions placed on us by our electrical contractors popped out at us late in the game, but we were able to work with the city and get it resolved because we'd been in constant communication. We didn't try to do everything ourselves.
Please, please talk to the proper authorities and make a plan. You will almost undoubtedly find that they'll be very eager to work with you and very willing to "fudge" on the small things if they are brought to their attention early enough and aren't major health concerns and as long as you have a plan to remedy them over time.
Said with love...
Quote-foo continues....
$2500 month rental (And we're talking ridiculously cheap rental, btw
$1800 month utils
(We'll just forego salaries and emp. taxes, despite the fact that it's completely unrealistic.)
$100 month CO2 (I spend a ton more than that, but I'm guessing for a smaller op.)
$500 month malt (Again, a fraction what I spend...)
$200 month hops (We ARE carrying an IPA, right?)
$75 month yeast (You can probably save some here by re-harvesting. But you'd need the equipment)
$30 month supplies. (TP, Napkins etc.)
$35 month pretzels
And I'm just doing something off the top of my head here before lunch. This is by no means comprehensive.
I could easily add in our marketing budget which would be the 2nd or 3rd highest line item here.
I could also add in regular maintenance costs which should run somewhere between $50 and $100 a month.
The point is, everything adds up here and there
That gives you $5245 a month. At $3.50 a pint you'd need to move 1499 pints to break even. Over a month period we'd need to average 50 pints a day. That seems fine, but remember we can only sell 3 pints per customer, per day. Quite often we only get somewhere in the zone of say 30 or 40 people in on a Monday. What if they only have 1 or 2 pints? What if some of those people are "Fishin' Hole" members and they choose to redeem their "1 free pint" that week on a given day?
In my case, I DO have employees, and I have to not only pay them a wage, but I also have to pay taxes for them on top of that. Let's also remember I have to pay both a State tax on alcohol as well as a much larger Federal tax.
So, in the end, $3.00 or even $3.50 is actually more difficult to make a profit at than you'd suspect. Certainly, small breweries DO make a profit on products in the taprooms. In fact that's the very BEST way for them to make a profit. But it's not like they're pulling down money like it grows on fabulous money trees made in Arabia. We have to be as efficient and careful in our processes as anyone.
It turns out, it's a business. Just one that you love.
Alright. So I have some "Thanks" to put out there. Cape and others gave some very good information about the desperate importance of looking into local, state and federal code before you dive too deeply into a brewery business venture. When I first started dreaming about Muddy Creek Brewery I took that to heart. And I must admit this VERY THREAD was an important part of that. I have Akthor and his trials and difficulties to thank for our relative ease into licensing and code navigation.
Which brings me to my favorite part of this response, "Quote-foo"
The above was actually 2 quotes.
What I wanted to point out here is that Akthor's critical mistake (and this has been stated, but perhaps not hammered home so bluntly, so completely and in as crystal clear a manner as I'm about to try to do now) is that he did not initially contact his local, state and federal zoning and TTB representatives to determine precisely what he needed to do in order to get his brewery up and running.
And that's it. That's all. He did SO much great work. He built SUCH an amazing place. He did all those amazing things with the property. His only lapse was a lack of experience in terms of the codes and licensing and the "legalese". But the really amazing and wonderful thing about his thread is that it does exactly what he sort of kids about near the end. It serves as a "cautionary tale." There are processes and steps to take in order to get your brewery up and running and most of them are slow, tedious and expensive, but keep in mind, while the government is slow, they aren't averse to you getting up and running.
Those people WANT you to start a new business. They WANT your taxable income. It's the ****ing GOVERNMENT! The faster you get going, the more money you make, the more money THEY make. Is it bureaucracy? YA! But you CAN do things to minimize the hassle and speed the process up. And the very best thing you can do is contact them from the very start and ask them what their requirements are.
Please, for the LOVE OF GOD Akthor, do this. Do it for your SWMBO, do it for yourself, do it for your children, and if your beer is ANY GOOD AT ALL, do it for your future customers. I cannot be any more blunt or any clearer. I am not being a hater. I am not wishing you ill. In fact, I am attempting to lead you on the only path that can possibly move you toward success. I truly appreciate that folks from Maine have a unique sense of rebellion and stubborn-ness. (Although I'd argue that's not at all unique.) But you can see from that comment that I did indeed suffer through every damn post of this agonizing thread just hoping and praying that you'd get your **** together and talk to the proper people about your permits and your zoning.
So please. In your new venture, do that. And don't be mad at me. Recognize that I come from a place of kindness and appreciation. Your struggles helped me to avoid the same. My path was much easier. We still had a couple surprises. The sprinkler system threw us for a loop and cost a ton of money, but we found out about it early enough that it didn't slow down our opening our overrun our budget. The electrical restrictions placed on us by our electrical contractors popped out at us late in the game, but we were able to work with the city and get it resolved because we'd been in constant communication. We didn't try to do everything ourselves.
Please, please talk to the proper authorities and make a plan. You will almost undoubtedly find that they'll be very eager to work with you and very willing to "fudge" on the small things if they are brought to their attention early enough and aren't major health concerns and as long as you have a plan to remedy them over time.
Said with love...
Quote-foo continues....
$2500 month rental (And we're talking ridiculously cheap rental, btw
$1800 month utils
(We'll just forego salaries and emp. taxes, despite the fact that it's completely unrealistic.)
$100 month CO2 (I spend a ton more than that, but I'm guessing for a smaller op.)
$500 month malt (Again, a fraction what I spend...)
$200 month hops (We ARE carrying an IPA, right?)
$75 month yeast (You can probably save some here by re-harvesting. But you'd need the equipment)
$30 month supplies. (TP, Napkins etc.)
$35 month pretzels
And I'm just doing something off the top of my head here before lunch. This is by no means comprehensive.
I could easily add in our marketing budget which would be the 2nd or 3rd highest line item here.
I could also add in regular maintenance costs which should run somewhere between $50 and $100 a month.
The point is, everything adds up here and there
That gives you $5245 a month. At $3.50 a pint you'd need to move 1499 pints to break even. Over a month period we'd need to average 50 pints a day. That seems fine, but remember we can only sell 3 pints per customer, per day. Quite often we only get somewhere in the zone of say 30 or 40 people in on a Monday. What if they only have 1 or 2 pints? What if some of those people are "Fishin' Hole" members and they choose to redeem their "1 free pint" that week on a given day?
In my case, I DO have employees, and I have to not only pay them a wage, but I also have to pay taxes for them on top of that. Let's also remember I have to pay both a State tax on alcohol as well as a much larger Federal tax.
So, in the end, $3.00 or even $3.50 is actually more difficult to make a profit at than you'd suspect. Certainly, small breweries DO make a profit on products in the taprooms. In fact that's the very BEST way for them to make a profit. But it's not like they're pulling down money like it grows on fabulous money trees made in Arabia. We have to be as efficient and careful in our processes as anyone.
It turns out, it's a business. Just one that you love.
hunter_le five
Sheriff Underscore
Having read through this thread in its entirety over a year ago and knowing how it ends, going back through it and rereading again it is fvcking hysterical. 
![Craft A Brew - Safale BE-256 Yeast - Fermentis - Belgian Ale Dry Yeast - For Belgian & Strong Ales - Ingredients for Home Brewing - Beer Making Supplies - [3 Pack]](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51bcKEwQmWL._SL500_.jpg)
MuddyCreek
Well-Known Member
Ok, so I know I just sounded like a total ******* there.
I'm really sorry about that. It wasn't my intention. I love your spirit. I really do. Just like you and all the other guys on here I am completely pumped about your dream and your attitude. I am thrilled that you've maintained your fire and eagerness over several years.
I said some kinda harsh things. But my intent was to shake the tree a bit and just make sure you realize that you can have both. You can have the free-wheeling "do it my way" thing and still plan it out and go by the numbers. I think the campground idea is pretty cool. I think the large-scale outdoor "hang out and chill" area is an awesome model if you can find the right space for it. Breckenridge Brewing in the Denver area is frickin' amazing if you ever get the chance to check them out. And I'm not even talking about their beer! ;-)
But to get to the dream, you gotta clean up the kitchen, help the kids do the homework, finish all the household chores and basically get all the daytime **** together so you can finally go to bed. Then, when it's nice and quiet you can go to sleep and dream away. But it's (as you've seen), a hella lot of work to get to that dreamin' stage.
I'm in your corner man. I really am. It sounds like I just kicked the **** out of your hopes and dreams, but I just tried to help. I really am sorry that I came off sounding like a total dick.
I'm really sorry about that. It wasn't my intention. I love your spirit. I really do. Just like you and all the other guys on here I am completely pumped about your dream and your attitude. I am thrilled that you've maintained your fire and eagerness over several years.
I said some kinda harsh things. But my intent was to shake the tree a bit and just make sure you realize that you can have both. You can have the free-wheeling "do it my way" thing and still plan it out and go by the numbers. I think the campground idea is pretty cool. I think the large-scale outdoor "hang out and chill" area is an awesome model if you can find the right space for it. Breckenridge Brewing in the Denver area is frickin' amazing if you ever get the chance to check them out. And I'm not even talking about their beer! ;-)
But to get to the dream, you gotta clean up the kitchen, help the kids do the homework, finish all the household chores and basically get all the daytime **** together so you can finally go to bed. Then, when it's nice and quiet you can go to sleep and dream away. But it's (as you've seen), a hella lot of work to get to that dreamin' stage.
I'm in your corner man. I really am. It sounds like I just kicked the **** out of your hopes and dreams, but I just tried to help. I really am sorry that I came off sounding like a total dick.
jackyl
Well-Known Member
so glad this thread showed up on the newest forums threads section. i just assumed it was going to be another run of the mill "i had an idea to start a brewery, but then it made no sense threads", but then it turned out to be amazing.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Any more pictures/details of your 1bbl system?
This was the most entertaining 3 hours of reading that I've had in a while... Best of luck akthor and thanks for the final summary
For others considering going pro.
From my experience with licensing, the Federal government (TTB) is probably the easiest (not easy, but doable) paperwork to work through followed by the State, with the local zoning, planning and building departments being the most costly, complex and time consuming by far. As covered by another poster, the variables of working with local government can make or break your project with both time and money.
On the plus side, most planning/ building departments are fairly easy to talk to and are usually willing to give you some guidance on the suitability of your planed location, hopefully prior to you signing any leases or otherwise committing. Proposed improvements, building construction & occupancy loads are potential pitfalls worth reviewing. Ask lots of questions before you get started spending or building.
For others considering going pro.
From my experience with licensing, the Federal government (TTB) is probably the easiest (not easy, but doable) paperwork to work through followed by the State, with the local zoning, planning and building departments being the most costly, complex and time consuming by far. As covered by another poster, the variables of working with local government can make or break your project with both time and money.
On the plus side, most planning/ building departments are fairly easy to talk to and are usually willing to give you some guidance on the suitability of your planed location, hopefully prior to you signing any leases or otherwise committing. Proposed improvements, building construction & occupancy loads are potential pitfalls worth reviewing. Ask lots of questions before you get started spending or building.
rudds67
Well-Known Member
Why haven't you just started a community professional brewing club..u charge money fees to your members and you give beer away.in lie of them signing over there 200 gallons of beer they can brew a year.like a brewing club...
Or start a You brew business ...where u charge people to use your gear...that can be very profitable...
There are loopholes. .you can give all the beer away for free.if you have members in a club.that. pay dues....or even to the general public.ypu don't need a license for that. .
Or start a You brew business ...where u charge people to use your gear...that can be very profitable...
There are loopholes. .you can give all the beer away for free.if you have members in a club.that. pay dues....or even to the general public.ypu don't need a license for that. .
OP
OP
akthor
Well-Known Member
All things that were thought of but the need to move to MN to care for the aging in laws kind of paused everything.
I'm a fermenter or three and a control panel away from getting my new 1bbl brewery up and running here. Once the in laws proceed to the next level of care and we are free to go where we want the dream will be revisited.
With that in mind my new 1bbl brewery will be all SS with including fermenters. And I am using 1/2 bbl sanke kegs.
I'm a fermenter or three and a control panel away from getting my new 1bbl brewery up and running here. Once the in laws proceed to the next level of care and we are free to go where we want the dream will be revisited.
With that in mind my new 1bbl brewery will be all SS with including fermenters. And I am using 1/2 bbl sanke kegs.
Northbank
Well-Known Member
I feel like I got to the end of Lord of the Rings but nothing actually happened... I dream about bee keeping on a hobbyfarm, selling eggs and basically living the rest of my days brewing and getting fat.
We'll see how it goes.
Northbank woz ere ... 2016.
We'll see how it goes.
Northbank woz ere ... 2016.
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Man, that was a long rick roll.
ImNoExpert
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how they run things in New York, but here, doing this would be illegal. You cannot open up a business and "give away" beer for a "fee" or open up a business where you just give away beer in some kind of effort to avoid excise taxes or obtaining proper permitting or licensure.
You'll get busted if your are trying to be a legitimate business trying to operate on "loopholes" that don't exist.
hunter_le five
Sheriff Underscore
:hs:
If the OP or anybody else is interested in how to start a small brewery, check out my blog:
http://crookedrunbrewing.wordpress.com/
I started at age 25 totally poor with money raised on Kickstarter. Today we are a few months away from opening a second 10 BBL location, we won gold at World Beer Cup this year, and were named best nanobrewery in the region by Washington Post. The best part is that we used an SBA loan to expand, so I barely had to give up any ownership to get capital.
One thing I have learned along the way is that the successful businesses explore every avenue to make sure they are compliant with local regulations. The beach bar that is across the street from our brewery got shut down because they were supposed to perform some work on their property to control run-off, but didn't. They got fined $500/day and had to close their outdoor seating for a month while they finally got around to making the required changes. Another area brewery had to close down their deck while they got structural drawings submitted since the county decided it was a permanent structure. Another brewery in planning got squashed by neighbors who were not OK with a farm brewery on their road, after the equipment was already purchased.
My point is that it is way better to take care of this stuff first, because depending on how deep your pockets are, being forced to close part or all of your business can sink you, and potentially leave you personally destitute.
For the expansion, the first thing we did is get a confirmation of use from the county. It's just a letter that states that the intended use is acceptable under the zoning. And that doesn't even mean that it necessarily is--then there's your building permit, MEP, etc. We are fortunate to have a lot of experience in construction.
http://crookedrunbrewing.wordpress.com/
I started at age 25 totally poor with money raised on Kickstarter. Today we are a few months away from opening a second 10 BBL location, we won gold at World Beer Cup this year, and were named best nanobrewery in the region by Washington Post. The best part is that we used an SBA loan to expand, so I barely had to give up any ownership to get capital.
One thing I have learned along the way is that the successful businesses explore every avenue to make sure they are compliant with local regulations. The beach bar that is across the street from our brewery got shut down because they were supposed to perform some work on their property to control run-off, but didn't. They got fined $500/day and had to close their outdoor seating for a month while they finally got around to making the required changes. Another area brewery had to close down their deck while they got structural drawings submitted since the county decided it was a permanent structure. Another brewery in planning got squashed by neighbors who were not OK with a farm brewery on their road, after the equipment was already purchased.
My point is that it is way better to take care of this stuff first, because depending on how deep your pockets are, being forced to close part or all of your business can sink you, and potentially leave you personally destitute.
For the expansion, the first thing we did is get a confirmation of use from the county. It's just a letter that states that the intended use is acceptable under the zoning. And that doesn't even mean that it necessarily is--then there's your building permit, MEP, etc. We are fortunate to have a lot of experience in construction.
OP
OP
akthor
Well-Known Member
Awesome man I will surely read you're blog thanks for taking the time to reply.
The dream is not dead just life has caused us to pause for awhile.
The dream is not dead just life has caused us to pause for awhile.
Been meaning to make it out to your place. Lots of beers that sound really good.
I can't believe I just found this. I was riding my bike on WO&D trail yesterday and found your brewpub. Mex Imperial Stout delicious, Black trippel delicious, The IPA (Verdant???) delicious. I had a flight of 4 brews and truly loved 3 of them. Well done!!
John Paul Stoddard
Well-Known Member
Just saw the Thread..Was Wondering if everything worked out for them....
It is never to late to chase a dream.
It is never to late to chase a dream.
OP
OP
akthor
Well-Known Member
Life happened. We had to move to Minnesota to help my girlfriends aging parents. Got married. Then I had a health scare. Healing and getting healthy again now. Never stopped working towards my goal tho. Learned a lot and am now working with a non profit small business foundation on the dream here.
