Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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isomerization

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A bit unrelated but trilliums permutation 6.20 mixes their house ale yeast with a Belgian yeast. On the description page under “malt” they wrote: MALT: WLP 500 and L3.

I’m wondering if this was an error or intentional. Looks like they are listing 2 yeasts: California ale and London III on the page. Could that be their house ale yeast? A blend of California ale presumably for attenuation and London III for those fruity esters?

https://www.trilliumbrewing.com/permutation-620

I thought WLP500 was Chimay yeast?
 

RTE

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I’ve been thinking for a long time of trying a blend 75%/25% Gigayeast 054 and 014.

I ended up buying a 32oz growler of perm 6.20/trilliums belgian IPA. I thought it had a lot in common with Treehouse beers. However it had a bit more Belgian yeast taste to it than a typical treehouse and it did not have that elusive bubble gum/mango/whatever you wanna call it taste. It was a fairly complex beer in terms of flavors. Overall I enjoyed it. You should try the 054/014 blend you might like it.
 

NJGeorge

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Some of the Industrial Arts beers (NY State) also have something that is in the same ballpark as Treehouse in terms of yeast character.
To me wrench yeast esters are totally different than TH. Can’t even compare imo. Pretty sure they use a LA1318 or similar. This is supposedly from the wrench recipe - Yeast
Pitch healthy, highly viable, expressive, low-flocculating english ale yeast strain (there are several that can work for this style of beer)
 

stickyfinger

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Well, I'm no aficionado of IA beers, but I swore the last one I had reminded me of Treehouse.

To me wrench yeast esters are totally different than TH. Can’t even compare imo. Pretty sure they use a LA1318 or similar. This is supposedly from the wrench recipe - Yeast
Pitch healthy, highly viable, expressive, low-flocculating english ale yeast strain (there are several that can work for this style of beer)
 

duelerx

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I roughly used the percentages outlined in this thread. I added about 1g wb-06 with the dry hop. The goal was "biotransformation." Whether that benefit was achieved is hard to say, but I think I picked up more melon, peach and other hard to place fruity notes from my citra dry hop that I would typically. I think both wb-06 and t-58 could both be added later with goal of biotransformation only.

I also fermented the s04 and t-58 combo around 62-64F during the first 72 hours to avoid too much spice from the t-58. I think if you ferment wb-06 at that temp in the first 72 hours you'll end up with banana flavors, another reason to add it later.

My take is that's the purpose of the yeast trio anyway: biotransformation. What exactly that means and what the end result should taste like is vague. Biotransformation also is fickle. Too much and you get muted flavors, not enough and nothing happens. Somewhere in between and you have really interesting subtle flavors.

My impression is that even TH struggles to achieve consistency with their yeasts, at least in larger batches. The best cans in the julius family don't have a lot of banana, clove or belgian flavors that you'll get from large amounts of wb-06 and t-58, where as the average and subpar cans do. That's my $0.02. I'm probably completely wrong.

I was also thinking better adding T-58 and WB06 later, but what is the temperature sweet spot and time to add both yeasts?
 

lilbova3

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IMG_0242.JPG


Read this about Bbbbright Galaxy. Said they forego the biotransformation that you originally find in their core Tree House IPAs.
 

NJGeorge

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Also in the new curiosity beer they talk abou this - Notes: For this curious exploration into the art and science of hoppy beers, we experimented with further stressing our yeast, much like Curiosity Seventy One, to coax exclusive and intriguing fruit esters from fermentation.

Besides pitching rate and temp, what else could they be doing to stress the yeast? Airation and nutrient? I don’t think high temp as you don’t taste much booze in their beers. Could they just be playing with pitch rate?
 
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lilbova3

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Also in the new curiosity beer they talk abou this - Notes: For this curious exploration into the art and science of hoppy beers, we experimented with further stressing our yeast, much like Curiosity Seventy One, to coax exclusive and intriguing fruit esters from fermentation.

Besides pitching rate and temp, what else could they be doing to stress the yeast? Airation and nutrient? I don’t think high temp as you don’t taste much booze in their beers. Could they just be playing with pitch rate?

I was wondering the same thing about all the ways to stress yeast. Temp, pitch rate and aeration are the only ones I know.
 

stickyfinger

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i am definitely intrigued by a comparison of biotransformation vs dry hopping after a soft crash. i need to do a side-by-side on this to compare the character. i've been very pleased with the dry hop after soft crashing followed by a cold crash recently. you get a very drinkable beer right away, and it seems to keep tasting good for a long time after.

i just did an IPA using the Trinity Brewer website ratios for the yeast, and it definitely has a Treehouse character to it that is very unique and interesting. I'd definitely recommend trying the 92%/5%/3% yeast split. It might not be exactly the same as Treehouse, but it is giving me a very delicious IPA with a character that is definitely in the ballpark of Treehouse. wow. i need to compare it to a Treehouse beer again when my friend brings me some Treehouse, maybe tomorrow.
 

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i am definitely intrigued by a comparison of biotransformation vs dry hopping after a soft crash. i need to do a side-by-side on this to compare the character. i've been very pleased with the dry hop after soft crashing followed by a cold crash recently. you get a very drinkable beer right away, and it seems to keep tasting good for a long time after.

i just did an IPA using the Trinity Brewer website ratios for the yeast, and it definitely has a Treehouse character to it that is very unique and interesting. I'd definitely recommend trying the 92%/5%/3% yeast split. It might not be exactly the same as Treehouse, but it is giving me a very delicious IPA with a character that is definitely in the ballpark of Treehouse. wow. i need to compare it to a Treehouse beer again when my friend brings me some Treehouse, maybe tomorrow.
Did you use their grain bill also? I have made the Julius clone as the website describes 4 times now and have really liked the results but this last time it was extremely yeasty tasting. Just now after 2 months in the keg is it tasting more like the other three batches which is to me very nice. I described this here before but am still puzzled by this difference. I did make two changes (one) was using my household water which was filtered and then adjusted to the recipes recommendations (I usually use RO water but started using mine after getting a good mineral report). (two)I left the temp at 72 degrees for the first 24 hrs of fermentation this time whereas I previously pitched at 72 but started lowering it as soon as fermentation began. I am all for trying the soft crash before DH with my next batch.
 

stickyfinger

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i just made up my own malt bill. 5% aromatic and 95% pale. i’ve had some mediocre batches of beer using S04. maybe that is the cause of the yeasty flavor. i dropped mine from 72 to 64 at 24 hrs. it would be worth trying other ferm temps on this.
 

ThePaleAleIndian

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On 8/13, I made it over to TH and picked up 9 different beers: Julius, Green, Bright Centenial, Bbbright Galaxy, Doppelganger, Summer, Super Treat and Haze. I haven't gone through all of them yet, but I can say that the Super Treat, Summer and Haze all have that yeast character we've come to associate with TH. They are delicious, particularly the Haze and Super Treat really had the character I was expecting from my memory of TH beers.

I was surprised to see that the Doppelganger was canned 7/31 and still available 2 weeks later. I had one last night, 16 days after the date on the can, and although the aroma was still ok, the color was darker than I remember and the flavor had a distinct oxidation character to it. I know it well from some of my own batches that have started to go. First time I've had this experience with TH. Makes me want to start checking their posted beers a couple weeks out to make sure I get only the fresher batches. Anyone ever experience something like this with TH?
 

NJGeorge

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On 8/13, I made it over to TH and picked up 9 different beers: Julius, Green, Bright Centenial, Bbbright Galaxy, Doppelganger, Summer, Super Treat and Haze. I haven't gone through all of them yet, but I can say that the Super Treat, Summer and Haze all have that yeast character we've come to associate with TH. They are delicious, particularly the Haze and Super Treat really had the character I was expecting from my memory of TH beers.

I was surprised to see that the Doppelganger was canned 7/31 and still available 2 weeks later. I had one last night, 16 days after the date on the can, and although the aroma was still ok, the color was darker than I remember and the flavor had a distinct oxidation character to it. I know it well from some of my own batches that have started to go. First time I've had this experience with TH. Makes me want to start checking their posted beers a couple weeks out to make sure I get only the fresher batches. Anyone ever experience something like this with TH?
Nice! How was Julius? Also, after drinking these beers, any thoughts on Wb and how it “might” be used?
 

chieftain

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On 8/13, I made it over to TH and picked up 9 different beers: Julius, Green, Bright Centenial, Bbbright Galaxy, Doppelganger, Summer, Super Treat and Haze. I haven't gone through all of them yet, but I can say that the Super Treat, Summer and Haze all have that yeast character we've come to associate with TH. They are delicious, particularly the Haze and Super Treat really had the character I was expecting from my memory of TH beers.

I was surprised to see that the Doppelganger was canned 7/31 and still available 2 weeks later. I had one last night, 16 days after the date on the can, and although the aroma was still ok, the color was darker than I remember and the flavor had a distinct oxidation character to it. I know it well from some of my own batches that have started to go. First time I've had this experience with TH. Makes me want to start checking their posted beers a couple weeks out to make sure I get only the fresher batches. Anyone ever experience something like this with TH?
Yes, I have seen this recently with a can or two. Believe it was Doppel or Alter Ego. Other beers I purchased that were canned at same time showed no similar signs.
 

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I was lucky enough to have Julius, Jjjulius, and KJ back to back to back recently. I’m convinced more than ever that Julius uses a very moderate amount of hops in comparison to other beers of this style. When I switched to jjj I quickly noticed that heavy Citra flavor that you get when drinking something like an Other Half all Citra ipa. While I could detect some of that in Julius, I really feel that the majority of that flavor is esters, maybe in conjunction with something else they’re adding that we don’t know about. KJ to me is an entirely different animal. Not necessarily better, but the extra malt presence was easily detectable. This was my second time having Jjj and both times I thought it was probably the best beer I’ve ever had
 

RTE

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I was also thinking better adding T-58 and WB06 later, but what is the temperature sweet spot and time to add both yeasts?
I tried adding wb06 along with my dry hops on day 3 at 62 degrees. Looking back I dont really see why I added it so soon. I think you could wait and add after wb06 and/or t58 close to the end of primary alongside the dry hops.

I've been brewing a bit more recently and now only try to change 1 variable at a time. I find that's the only way I can really pick up on how specific changes impact the beer. Point being I did not do this last time I messed around with wb06 and t58 so I have no idea what the end impact was.
 

TBryerton

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I tried adding wb06 along with my dry hops on day 3 at 62 degrees. Looking back I dont really see why I added it so soon. I think you could wait and add after wb06 and/or t58 close to the end of primary alongside the dry hops.

I've been brewing a bit more recently and now only try to change 1 variable at a time. I find that's the only way I can really pick up on how specific changes impact the beer. Point being I did not do this last time I messed around with wb06 and t58 so I have no idea what the end impact was.
Do we know what the pros and cons are of adding straight yeast at this point in the process vs making a ‘starter’ to get the yeast in an alcohol environment prior to adding? I typically make a mini starter when I do this but I always wonder if it’s a complete waste of time.
 

tld6008

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Do we know what the pros and cons are of adding straight yeast at this point in the process vs making a ‘starter’ to get the yeast in an alcohol environment prior to adding? I typically make a mini starter when I do this but I always wonder if it’s a complete waste of time.
The yeasts discussed here are dry yeasts and the manufacturers do not recommend making starters although recent evidence is suggesting that rehydration may be the best option re: Sept. issue of Brew Your Own magazine.
 

TBryerton

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The yeasts discussed here are dry yeasts and the manufacturers do not recommend making starters although recent evidence is suggesting that rehydration may be the best option re: Sept. issue of Brew Your Own magazine.
Right. When I use dry yeast at the beginning of the process I pitch straight. I’m more curious about pitching a second yeast in an alcohol rich environment. I would imagine there’s some benefit from letting the yeast build up their own environment first.
 

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Just brewed a variation of this. Only using SO4 and T58. Wasn’t interested in WB06 and its possible clove characteristics.

4 gallons into fermenter

94% SO4
6% T58

85% 2 Row
3% C40
7% Carapils
6% Cane sugar

OG: 1.064
FG: 1.015
ABV: 6.2%
SRM: 5.5
Estimated IBU: 65

Ca:22, Mg: 13, Na: 17, Cl: 48, SO4: 76

3.5 oz Simcoe WP
.5 oz Simcoe DH
1 oz Galaxy DH
1 oz Citra DH
1 oz Galaxy keg hop
1 oz Citra keg hop
 

NJGeorge

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https://famouslastworts.com/2019/08/27/hunt-for-the-juice-decoding-what-yeast-is-in-julius/

This is pretty funny, only yeast that matched was WB-06, perhaps the most disputed strain call of the four!
I remember earlier in this thread someone mentioned that they saw someone pitching a brick/bricks into a tank at the brewery. Could have very well been wb-06 during dry hopping. Interesting! Or.. I mentioned this before, however, I did not try it yet, but krausening with a wb batch.
 

Northern_Brewer

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This is pretty funny, only yeast that matched was WB-06, perhaps the most disputed strain call of the four!

Only because of somebody's crappy gels.... :)

Interesting though, it rather supports the idea that at some point, during the move or before, they switched to something other than S-04 for the heavy-lifting. I can't remember, did you use delta 12/21
or another pair, would be interesting to compare his bands with 12/21 PCRs on other strains?
 
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isomerization

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Only because of somebody's crappy gels.... :)

Interesting though, it rather supports the idea that at some point, during the move or before, they switched to something other than S-04 for the heavy-lifting. I can't remember, did you use delta 12/21
or another pair, would be interesting to compare his bands with 12/21 PCRs on other strains?

This is the last time I used 12/21:

Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

Unfortunately didn’t have the dry yeasts yet at that time.
 

beervoid

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If they biotransform hop, it would make sense to add a little t58 and wb06 together with dry hopping to apart from dealing with hop creep they also would have some extra sugars to actually ferment and create esters, especially at the higher end of fermentation temps.
 

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I'm wondering if the strain similar to WB-06 is actually WLP644? The fingerprint Chris (famouslastworts) got is almost identical to one I got of WLP644 back in the days when I was confirming my Conan × WLP644 hybrids (http://beer.suregork.com/?p=3747). We also know through genome sequencing that WB-06 and WLP644 are both closely related Beer2 strains (sorry can't reveal more, as the info hasn't been officially released yet), so it makes sense the fingerprints match. I mean WLP644 was/is quite a trendy IPA yeast, so why couldn't it be part of the blend?

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see that the colony was POF+, so can't be WLP644
 

lilbova3

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Tasted this brew of mine after first dry hop and it tastes very juicy fruit bubblegumesque. Slightly overpowering as the dry hops don’t come through but the dry hops have only been on it for a day. Hoping when I keg the keg hops will come through.

Not upset with the brew but man is it juicy fruity.

Just brewed a variation of this. Only using SO4 and T58. Wasn’t interested in WB06 and its possible clove characteristics.

4 gallons into fermenter

94% SO4
6% T58

85% 2 Row
3% C40
7% Carapils
6% Cane sugar

OG: 1.064
FG: 1.015
ABV: 6.2%
SRM: 5.5
Estimated IBU: 65

Ca:22, Mg: 13, Na: 17, Cl: 48, SO4: 76

3.5 oz Simcoe WP
.5 oz Simcoe DH
1 oz Galaxy DH
1 oz Citra DH
1 oz Galaxy keg hop
1 oz Citra keg hop
 

elgee

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Tasted this brew of mine after first dry hop and it tastes very juicy fruit bubblegumesque. Slightly overpowering as the dry hops don’t come through but the dry hops have only been on it for a day. Hoping when I keg the keg hops will come through.

Not upset with the brew but man is it juicy fruity.

Did you pitch both at the same time?
 

brewpharm Hill

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Has anyone tried using safale S-33? It seems to be closely related to an english strain. Fermentis updated its description to include hoppy beers and NEIPAs rather than just fruity. Also claiming to leave a full mouthfeel. I've always wondered about TH using this yeast and now that they have updated the description along with famouslastworts.com's recent results it would be fun to experiment with it alone and in combination with T-58 and Wb-06. My apologies if this was originally analyzed in Isomerization's initial DNA results. I may try experimenting with this in one of my next batches.
 
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Has anyone tried using safale S-33? It seems to be closely related to an english strain. Fermentis updated its description to include hoppy beers and NEIPAs rather than just fruity. Also claiming to leave a full mouthfeel. I've always wondered about TH using this yeast and now that they have updated the description along with famouslastworts.com's recent results it would be fun to experiment with it alone and in combination with T-58 and Wb-06. My apologies if this was originally analyzed in Isomerization's initial DNA results. I may try experimenting with this in one of my next batches.

I did indeed check S-33 (link above in response to Northern brewer) and the banding pattern did not match one of the isolated yeasts. Could have changed or been incorrect though!
 
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