Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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couchsending

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A pretty darn good brewery that has won a lot of awards for their hoppy (and non hoppy) beers over the last few years uses 1318. Their beers are nice and clear and believe it or not they're saturated with hops and crazy aromatic. How is that even possible? Right? Read the latest Craft Beer and Brewing, Mark Hastings knows his ****.
 

melville

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I still find it interesting that people think 1318 is critical to making a "NEIPA" cause Kimmich once suggested it would be good and people thought that it was the yeast HF used. Not one noteworthy brewery from
New England uses this yeast to make these beers....although there are others across the country that do use this yeast, albeit to make nice hoppy beers that are nice and clear.

It is funny how fast conventional wisdom takes hold in the homebrew community. If @isomerization is right, HF doesn't use it and TH doesn't use it and maybe Trillium doesn't use it (unsure exactly what they're using — madfermentationist implied they've cycled through several strains). All of them seem to use crystal malts which is frowned upon in the forums, and don't use honey malt, which seems to crop in many NEIPA recipes. And as we all know, TH doesn't use oats etc — seemingly a staple in just about TH clone.

That's been my favorite thing about what @isomerization started here: screw conventional wisdom. I ditched basically everything I did before, started from the ground up, and built it back up in an entirely different way, and my mouth thanks me every day.
 

centrical

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@centrical Interesting about 1469 - what didn't you like about it? It's one I want to play with for a couple of styles, both NEIPA and more traditional English ones.

It's not that it's bad, it just wasn't giving me what I was looking for. It seems to me that there are certain yeasts that I've found including 1318, 1098, S04, and probably others that react to a huge amount of hops by providing a brilliant zesty citrusy brightness and a big haze it seems. 1469 did not. It was "flat" tasting compared to the 1318 half of the batch. As if I had used 1056.
 

NJGeorge

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Would there be any benefit to making a starter with the three yeasts TH supposedly uses? Also, if we were pitching a blend of the three yeasts at once, would you be able to make a starter with the approximate % of each yeast and pitch that? Has anyone tried this? I think there was a picture in this thread showing Nates old fermenters and a couple starters. Maybe that was wort for carbing.. What do you guys think?
 

bbohanon

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I'm also fermenting my first NEIPA using 1318 as you described, next iterations i would use the dry yeast combos as advised in this thread for comparing side by side.

How do you conduct your spunding procedure?, this is also one of the things i would like to experiment also with CBC-1 and forced carb.


So I built 6 of these very cheaply (http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/) and basically I drop in some priming sugar (about 3/4 of a bottling package of priming sugar) solution into the keg (boiled in a small amount of distilled water and cooled obviously), then rack the beer quietly into the keg and then pressurize with CO2 to remove any O2 in the head space (and to just seal the lid), then attach the spunding valves and walk away for 2 weeks.
I know this may be obvious, but keg carb at room temp as you would bottles.

I dont use ANY yeast in secondary as with 1318, there is still PLENTY enough in solution to eat the priming sugar and carb those kegs up nicely.

When setting these up, you want to be able to get them set to your PSI BEFORE you attach them to the kegs so you are not "guessing" at where they need to be as the PSI dials on these are not exactly accurate. You need to attach them to a regulator, apply the pressure and then mark with a sharpie on your adjustment knob where your desired PSI falls and the spunding valve opens so you are not adjusting it all the time.

I also set the PSI just a tad higher than the desired PSI for the beer as once you toss the kegs into a cold environment, it will pull more of the carbonation into solution so what may be overcarbed just a tad when warm, wont be when cold from my experience.

I absolutely love them, it saves me CO2 cost, I can have beer sitting outside the kegerator fully naturally carbed and ready, and the beer is just better. The downside is the wait as this is basically the same as bottling carbing, but to me, its worth it. Just keep your pipeline full and you wont have an issue.
 

bbohanon

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Hey bbohanon,

After fermentation ends at 70f after 5 days, can you tell me what then? Do you ramp the temp back down over time? when do you dry hop, and at what temp? I'm glad you have tamed 1318! Thanks!

I ALWAYS dry hop at 70deg for this beer and leave it there for the duration of the dry hop period (5-7 days) and I get great results. I tried going colder on the dry hop and I always get more "grassier" notes in the IPA when I am aiming for the "juicy-ness".

I also never use a hop sack or anything like that when putting my hops in. I go commando as I want maximum surface exposure on those hops.

Once the dry hop period is complete, I will crash the beer down to 45deg for 24-48 hours (as once you cold crash it, the hop crown that forms on the surface all sinks and settles better to the bottom) and then I rack it to the keg.
 

bbohanon

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I still find it interesting that people think 1318 is critical to making a "NEIPA" cause Kimmich once suggested it would be good and people thought that it was the yeast HF used. Not one noteworthy brewery from
New England uses this yeast to make these beers....although there are others across the country that do use this yeast, albeit to make nice hoppy beers that are nice and clear.

Honestly, I had no idea Kimmich even mentioned 1318 anywhere..I got the idea for using 1318 from another massive TH/HT clone thread here on HBT sometime back where some experimental batches were getting made/pictured and 1318 seemed to be the one everyone loved so I went with it and never looked back.
I tried MANY yeasts during my journey with this and for me, 1318 was the best performer hands down for MY OWN recipe but again, thats my personal preference..YMMV

I blame my own year+ NEIPA journey on why I dont like IPAs as much as I used to..I made SO much of it trying to nail this recipe that I got burned out on IPAs..lol.

As far as 1318 clearing up, it takes a LONG time for it to drop clear..I have made a batch and had a lost bottle sitting at 34 degrees for 2 months or more and it starts to clear up, but still have a murkiness to it. I honestly cannot say I have ever had this beer sitting around long enough to ever see it drop completely clear. It gets consumed too quickly.
:mug:
 

overthebarsbrewing

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Finally got my brew day in. Made 0.5BBL of my standard NEIPA base wort recipe and used Citra/Mosaic hops.

Split it into 3 fermenters and am going to do the following:

FV#1: Used WY1318. Pitched from a starter at standard ~0.75M cells/ml/*P This will get ferm-hopped at day 3. Plan to transfer when ferm complete and will slowly force-carb. Will add keg hops.

FV#2: Same as above but plan to transfer to a keg when ferm complete. Will have keg hops in there and will attempt to naturally carb with CBC-1.

FV#3: Did an initial pitch of 6gm S-04 and 2gm T-58 at ~78*F. My plan is to check SG after ~48-72h and then pitch 2gm of WB-06 with ferm hops when SG is ~4-6pts above expected final SG. Will transfer to a keg with keg hops in there and will attempt to naturally carb with CBC-1.

Hopefully will be interesting!!!



Sorry for the delay getting this posted. Here are the results from my split-batch experiment. Recipe details are in the quote above.

From left to right in the picture:

1.) WY1318 with CO2 tank carbonation
2.) WY1318 with natural CBC-1 carbonation
3.) S04/T58/WB06 with natural CBC-1 carbonation

These beers have been in the keezer under CO2 for pouring for ~12 days now. Each keg had 1.5oz Citra & Mosaic added as keg-hopping.

Visual:

Interesting that the natural-carbed WY1318 batch is lighter in color than the C02 tank-carbed one. Probably represents less oxidation? The S04/T58/WB06 started off slightly less cloudy than the WY1318 but now the difference is very noticeable. Even moreso than the picture represents. But it is still slightly hazy.

The two naturally-carbed beers have a denser, creamier head to them. IT also lasts longer than the CO2-carbed version.

I did blinded triangle testing for the 3 beers. I was able to pick out the different beer consistently. The differences in taste, aroma, and mouthfeel were fairly impressive. Of note, I also submitted the WY1318 beers to triangle testing for 8 of my drinking buddies. Only one couldn’t correctly tell the difference between the natural carbed and C02 tank carbed beers.

These are my tasting notes:

Aroma:

There are very noticeable differences in aroma between the WY1318 and SO4/T58/WB06. Both WY1318 beers have similar aroma. The naturally-carbed one has a bit stronger aroma (after 12 days in the keezer) c/w C02-carbed. Both have a great pineapple, orange, peach, and mango aroma. The SO4/T58/WB06 beer still has a juicy fruit gum, orange, pineapple aroma, but the aroma has now become more muted than the other 2 beers. Interestingly, it had much stronger aroma than the other two during both sample readings pre-transfer to the keg carbing.

Taste/Mouthfeel:

Both 1318 beers have tastes of pineapple, mango, orange, tart grapefruit, & a little bit of berry. The natural carbed one’s tastes definitely are cleaner and stronger and it has a Smoooooooth mouthfeel and the carbonation is what I’d describe as more “gentle on the tongue”.

The S04/T58/WB06 beer has notes of sweeter grapefruit, peach, and mango. I don’t get any berry flavors from it. It finishes with ever so slight spicyness that the other beers definitely don’t have. The mouthfeel is nice and soft though, with very pleasant carbonation. It is a great beer, but is the least “Treehouse-style NEIPA” of the bunch.


Very interesting parallel experiment results. My takes from it:

-WY1318 makes a fabulous NEIPA all by itself
-Natural carbing makes a noticeable difference.
-The recipe and yeast ratio that I used for the “TH yeast” batch are not that close to what TH is doing.
-I made 3 batches of the same exact grainbill and hop schedule beer that ended up being substantially different beers in the end due to yeast selection and carbonation method…proving once again how many variables influence beers!


YAnBerI.jpg
 
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bbohanon

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One other item of note with this that I know has been beat to death on other threads with these types of beer is water profile.

You need to really know what your Mash PH and water profile IS or all the yeast, grain and hops in the world wont help and the hop profile and beer will be a muted mess.

For mine, I always hit a Mash PH of 5.5, and for water profile, I tend to stay around 140ppm So4, 102ppm Cl, and 105ppm Ca. I dont worry about the Mg or Na with this one.

I tried the different Cl/So4 combos and I found the higher Cl just seems to taste too minerally to me.

I also always use Distilled or RO water for mine as well as I found it easier to start with a base zero water profile and build it up from there.
 

bbohanon

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Sorry for the delay getting this posted. Here are the results from my split-batch experiment. Recipe details are in the quote above.

From left to right in the picture:

1.) WY1318 with CO2 tank carbonation
2.) WY1318 with natural CBC-1 carbonation
3.) S04/T58/WB06 with natural CBC-1 carbonation

These beers have been in the keezer under CO2 for pouring for ~12 days now. Each keg had 1.5oz Citra & Mosaic added as keg-hopping.

Visual:

Interesting that the natural-carbed WY1318 batch is lighter in color than the C02 tank-carbed one. Probably represents less oxidation? The S04/T58/WB06 started off slightly less cloudy than the WY1318 but now the difference is very noticeable. Even moreso than the picture represents. But it is still slightly hazy.

The two naturally-carbed beers have a denser, creamier head to them. IT also lasts longer than the CO2-carbed version.

I did blinded triangle testing for the 3 beers. I was able to pick out the different beer consistently. The differences in taste, aroma, and mouthfeel were fairly impressive. Of note, I also submitted the WY1318 beers to triangle testing for 8 of my drinking buddies. Only one couldn’t correctly tell the difference between the natural carbed and C02 tank carbed beers.

These are my tasting notes:

Aroma:

There are very noticeable differences in aroma between the WY1318 and SO4/T58/WB06. Both WY1318 beers have similar aroma. The naturally-carbed one has a bit stronger aroma (after 12 days in the keezer) c/w C02-carbed. Both have a great pineapple, orange, peach, and mango aroma. The SO4/T58/WB06 beer still has a juicy fruit gum, orange, pineapple aroma, but the aroma has now become more muted than the other 2 beers. Interestingly, it had much stronger aroma than the other two during both sample readings pre-transfer to the keg carbing.

Taste/Mouthfeel:

Both 1318 beers have tastes of pineapple, mango, orange, tart grapefruit, & a little bit of berry. The natural carbed one’s tastes definitely are cleaner and stronger and it has a Smoooooooth mouthfeel and the carbonation is what I’d describe as more “gentle on the tongue”.

The S04/T58/WB06 beer has notes of sweeter grapefruit, peach, and mango. I don’t get any berry flavors from it. It finishes with ever so slight spicyness that the other beers definitely don’t have. The mouthfeel is nice and soft though, with very pleasant carbonation. It is a great beer, but is the least “Treehouse-style NEIPA” of the bunch.


Very interesting parallel experiment results. My takes from it:

-WY1318 makes a fabulous NEIPA all by itself
-Natural carbing makes a noticeable difference.
-The recipe and yeast ratio that I used for the “TH yeast” batch are not that close to what TH is doing.
-I made 3 batches of the same exact grainbill and hop schedule beer that ended up being substantially different beers in the end due to yeast selection and carbonation method…proving once again how many variables influence beers!


YAnBerI.jpg

Great feedback and mirrors alot of my findings as well with the 1318 and natural carbing methods (although I never add any bottling yeast to mine).
It is very interesting to see the different environmental impacts that can affect a beer over its life to the time of consumption..Good stuff!
 

overthebarsbrewing

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See this paper from Sapporo.

Just as we think of certain hop varieties as being specialist "bittering" hops that get used at a certain time of the brew to provide certain specific chemicals (alpha acids in that case) that will be transformed into useful flavours in the beer, I think we need to start thinking of Bravo as a "geranioling" hop that gets added at the start of the cool stage to get geraniol into the wort that the yeast will turn into a complex mix of other terpene alcohols like β-citronellol and linalool.

That would explain people's variable results with it - if you dry hop late, you'll gets lots of untransformed geraniol, which as the name suggests is floral, whereas get it to the yeast whilst they're still active and they'll turn it into a tasty mix of citrussy compounds.

I must admit, I've found Bravo to be a bit one-dimensional as a single-hop beer, but I think it's quite interesting specifically as a whirlpool/pitching hop
and it's going to be a focus of my NEIPA experiments that I'm planning for when the new season hops arrive. Last night I brewed a "leftovers" best bitter, using up all the various open bags of hops and speciality grains and a bag of 2015 Bramling Cross I found at the bottom of the freezer, so I'm ready for the new season! :)

@overthebarsbrewing - so are you using that ECB mix the same 1:1:1 at all stages, or are you loading the Bravo into the whirlpool and less at other stages? Look forward to your report - I do love a split batch.... :mug:

@centrical Interesting about 1469 - what didn't you like about it? It's one I want to play with for a couple of styles, both NEIPA and more traditional English ones.

My latest 5-gal batches I've done:

-0.5oz each of Citra/Ekuanot @ 15min
-1oz each Bravo/Citra Ekuanot @ 5min and same amount for an ~30min WP at ~180F
-1.3oz each Bravo/Citra Ekuanot at ~48-72h into ferment
-1oz each Bravo/Citra Ekuanot as keg hops
 

TheHairyHop

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It is funny how fast conventional wisdom takes hold in the homebrew community. If @isomerization is right, HF doesn't use it and TH doesn't use it and maybe Trillium doesn't use it (unsure exactly what they're using — madfermentationist implied they've cycled through several strains). All of them seem to use crystal malts which is frowned upon in the forums, and don't use honey malt, which seems to crop in many NEIPA recipes. And as we all know, TH doesn't use oats etc — seemingly a staple in just about TH clone.

That's been my favorite thing about what @isomerization started here: screw conventional wisdom. I ditched basically everything I did before, started from the ground up, and built it back up in an entirely different way, and my mouth thanks me every day.

it's not necessarily "conventional wisdom", though. I and others currently posting have tried many yeasts, including some of the combinations in this thread, and many of us (me included) prefer the 1318 beers. That's like the literal opposite of conventional wisdom.
 

overthebarsbrewing

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Would there be any benefit to making a starter with the three yeasts TH supposedly uses? Also, if we were pitching a blend of the three yeasts at once, would you be able to make a starter with the approximate % of each yeast and pitch that? Has anyone tried this? I think there was a picture in this thread showing Nates old fermenters and a couple starters. Maybe that was wort for carbing.. What do you guys think?

I'd doubt it as it would only add some additional steps, additional variability, and additional QC. You'd have to do cell counts of each strain after the starter culture was made to determine cell density, then calculate how much volume of each strain to mix to get your desired % ratios.

I imagine maybe they would be "healthier" or more active, but I can tell you that one other big revelation I've had with all the experimentation in this thread is how quickly a vigorous fermentation starts with these dry yeast strains. Even when underpitching them dry straight into the fermentor...my ferments with S04/T58 took off like gangbusters...at least as quickly if not quicker than some of my WY1318 starter culture ferments.
 
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overthebarsbrewing

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So I built 6 of these very cheaply (http://because-beer.com/diy-spunding-valve-one-stop-parts-shopping-on-amazon/) and basically I drop in some priming sugar (about 3/4 of a bottling package of priming sugar) solution into the keg (boiled in a small amount of distilled water and cooled obviously), then rack the beer quietly into the keg and then pressurize with CO2 to remove any O2 in the head space (and to just seal the lid), then attach the spunding valves and walk away for 2 weeks.
I know this may be obvious, but keg carb at room temp as you would bottles.

I dont use ANY yeast in secondary as with 1318, there is still PLENTY enough in solution to eat the priming sugar and carb those kegs up nicely.

When setting these up, you want to be able to get them set to your PSI BEFORE you attach them to the kegs so you are not "guessing" at where they need to be as the PSI dials on these are not exactly accurate. You need to attach them to a regulator, apply the pressure and then mark with a sharpie on your adjustment knob where your desired PSI falls and the spunding valve opens so you are not adjusting it all the time.

I also set the PSI just a tad higher than the desired PSI for the beer as once you toss the kegs into a cold environment, it will pull more of the carbonation into solution so what may be overcarbed just a tad when warm, wont be when cold from my experience.

I absolutely love them, it saves me CO2 cost, I can have beer sitting outside the kegerator fully naturally carbed and ready, and the beer is just better. The downside is the wait as this is basically the same as bottling carbing, but to me, its worth it. Just keep your pipeline full and you wont have an issue.

I just made similar builds and they work great. The one thing I'd suggest is that you get a PSI gauge that reads at least up to 30PSI. Reason being is that you are shooting for hitting C02 carbonastion volumes >2.3, this amounts to a reading of >25PSI at a room temperature carbonation ferment step.
 

overthebarsbrewing

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A pretty darn good brewery that has won a lot of awards for their hoppy (and non hoppy) beers over the last few years uses 1318. Their beers are nice and clear and believe it or not they're saturated with hops and crazy aromatic. How is that even possible? Right? Read the latest Craft Beer and Brewing, Mark Hastings knows his ****.

It is funny how fast conventional wisdom takes hold in the homebrew community. If @isomerization is right, HF doesn't use it and TH doesn't use it and maybe Trillium doesn't use it (unsure exactly what they're using — madfermentationist implied they've cycled through several strains). All of them seem to use crystal malts which is frowned upon in the forums, and don't use honey malt, which seems to crop in many NEIPA recipes. And as we all know, TH doesn't use oats etc — seemingly a staple in just about TH clone.

That's been my favorite thing about what @isomerization started here: screw conventional wisdom. I ditched basically everything I did before, started from the ground up, and built it back up in an entirely different way, and my mouth thanks me every day.

Honestly, I had no idea Kimmich even mentioned 1318 anywhere..I got the idea for using 1318 from another massive TH/HT clone thread here on HBT sometime back where some experimental batches were getting made/pictured and 1318 seemed to be the one everyone loved so I went with it and never looked back.
I tried MANY yeasts during my journey with this and for me, 1318 was the best performer hands down for MY OWN recipe but again, thats my personal preference..YMMV

I blame my own year+ NEIPA journey on why I dont like IPAs as much as I used to..I made SO much of it trying to nail this recipe that I got burned out on IPAs..lol.

As far as 1318 clearing up, it takes a LONG time for it to drop clear..I have made a batch and had a lost bottle sitting at 34 degrees for 2 months or more and it starts to clear up, but still have a murkiness to it. I honestly cannot say I have ever had this beer sitting around long enough to ever see it drop completely clear. It gets consumed too quickly.
:mug:


I think there are just so many variables that we have yet to fully test/understand that influence haziness. The only NEIPA I've made with 1318 that dropped nearly clear fairly quickly was one I made with a combo of Azacca-Cascade-Meridian.

I made a split-10gal batch with 5gal of the above hops and 5gal w/ Bravo-Citra-Ekuanot. Both started off with similar cloudiness for the first 1-2 days of pours. After ~5-7 days, the A-C-M only had a slight haze to it while the B-C-E looked exactly like it did on Day #1. The only thing different was the hop bill. IBUs from the hops were identical.

Wouldn't surprise me if different hop oils interact with different yeasts differently, resulting in different emulsifying properties (or other physicochemical changes that influence suspensions/emulsions).
 

bbohanon

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I think there are just so many variables that we have yet to fully test/understand that influence haziness. The only NEIPA I've made with 1318 that dropped nearly clear fairly quickly was one I made with a combo of Azacca-Cascade-Meridian.

I made a split-10gal batch with 5gal of the above hops and 5gal w/ Bravo-Citra-Ekuanot. Both started off with similar cloudiness for the first 1-2 days of pours. After ~5-7 days, the A-C-M only had a slight haze to it while the B-C-E looked exactly like it did on Day #1. The only thing different was the hop bill. IBUs from the hops were identical.

Wouldn't surprise me if different hop oils interact with different yeasts differently, resulting in different emulsifying properties (or other physicochemical changes that influence suspensions/emulsions).


I would agree with this..I think the late whirlpool hopping and even the water profile has alot to do with how long the beer stays cloudy with certain yeasts..as I mentioned before, I did try a few different water profiles when I was experimenting and I can say I percieved a bit more of a clearer beer after cold crashing/carbing when the Cl was higher than the So4 was.
It never dropped clear for me, but again, it never stick around for longer than a month after its carbed at my house so its hard to know how long it would take for it to clear up and it the beer profile changed at all due to the yeast falling out.
I do know HT is a much different beer after its been sitting in the fridge for 30 days than it was when you first picked up a can. Seems to be a more "bitter/sharper" hop bite over time and its a much clearer beer as well.
Probably why they tell you to drink it fresh.. :fro:
 

duelerx

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Sorry for the delay getting this posted. Here are the results from my split-batch experiment. Recipe details are in the quote above.

From left to right in the picture:

1.) WY1318 with CO2 tank carbonation
2.) WY1318 with natural CBC-1 carbonation
3.) S04/T58/WB06 with natural CBC-1 carbonation

These beers have been in the keezer under CO2 for pouring for ~12 days now. Each keg had 1.5oz Citra & Mosaic added as keg-hopping.

Visual:

Interesting that the natural-carbed WY1318 batch is lighter in color than the C02 tank-carbed one. Probably represents less oxidation? The S04/T58/WB06 started off slightly less cloudy than the WY1318 but now the difference is very noticeable. Even moreso than the picture represents. But it is still slightly hazy.

The two naturally-carbed beers have a denser, creamier head to them. IT also lasts longer than the CO2-carbed version.

I did blinded triangle testing for the 3 beers. I was able to pick out the different beer consistently. The differences in taste, aroma, and mouthfeel were fairly impressive. Of note, I also submitted the WY1318 beers to triangle testing for 8 of my drinking buddies. Only one couldn’t correctly tell the difference between the natural carbed and C02 tank carbed beers.

These are my tasting notes:

Aroma:

There are very noticeable differences in aroma between the WY1318 and SO4/T58/WB06. Both WY1318 beers have similar aroma. The naturally-carbed one has a bit stronger aroma (after 12 days in the keezer) c/w C02-carbed. Both have a great pineapple, orange, peach, and mango aroma. The SO4/T58/WB06 beer still has a juicy fruit gum, orange, pineapple aroma, but the aroma has now become more muted than the other 2 beers. Interestingly, it had much stronger aroma than the other two during both sample readings pre-transfer to the keg carbing.

Taste/Mouthfeel:

Both 1318 beers have tastes of pineapple, mango, orange, tart grapefruit, & a little bit of berry. The natural carbed one’s tastes definitely are cleaner and stronger and it has a Smoooooooth mouthfeel and the carbonation is what I’d describe as more “gentle on the tongue”.

The S04/T58/WB06 beer has notes of sweeter grapefruit, peach, and mango. I don’t get any berry flavors from it. It finishes with ever so slight spicyness that the other beers definitely don’t have. The mouthfeel is nice and soft though, with very pleasant carbonation. It is a great beer, but is the least “Treehouse-style NEIPA” of the bunch.


Very interesting parallel experiment results. My takes from it:

-WY1318 makes a fabulous NEIPA all by itself
-Natural carbing makes a noticeable difference.
-The recipe and yeast ratio that I used for the “TH yeast” batch are not that close to what TH is doing.
-I made 3 batches of the same exact grainbill and hop schedule beer that ended up being substantially different beers in the end due to yeast selection and carbonation method…proving once again how many variables influence beers!


YAnBerI.jpg

I'm impressed the natural carbonated has lighter color than the forced carbonated, even when you added CBC-1 after fermentation, my IPA's have improved since i moved from bottling to kegging and forced carbonating but this convinced me to try CBC-1. Did you add priming sugar for carbonating with CBC-1?
 

Northern_Brewer

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Great stuff OTBB - my first thought just seeing the pic was that the left one (force carbed as I late read) was oxidised.

6:2:2 S-04:T58:WB06 seems rather low on S-04 compared to others - was it so inferior that you would stick to 1318 in future, or would you consider a 9:.5:.5 or something of the blend?

It's so frustrating not being able to taste things over the internet!!! :)
 

NJGeorge

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Regarding the S-04, T-58 and Wb-06 yeast, what fermentation temperature has worked best for the guys who pitched them all together? Is there a consensus as to the yeast % ratio that worked best so far? I'll be using these yeast next week and will tweak depending on what everyone's findings were. Any suggestions? Also note, I don't really have any way to temp control as of now with ambient temp being 70. Could use my AC I suppose to bring down to 65.
 

melville

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it's not necessarily "conventional wisdom", though. I and others currently posting have tried many yeasts, including some of the combinations in this thread, and many of us (me included) prefer the 1318 beers. That's like the literal opposite of conventional wisdom.

The CW is that TH and HF and others must be using 1318 and thus a clone should use 1318, oats, low IBUs, high in CL, with no crystal malt.
 

overthebarsbrewing

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I'm impressed the natural carbonated has lighter color than the forced carbonated, even when you added CBC-1 after fermentation, my IPA's have improved since i moved from bottling to kegging and forced carbonating but this convinced me to try CBC-1. Did you add priming sugar for carbonating with CBC-1?

I did add priming sugar. For 2 related reasons:

1--CBC-1 doesn't ferment complex sugars like maltotriose
2--I missed my "4-6 points above terminal gravity" window for transferring to the keg (where there would probably be enough simple sugars left over for CBC-1 (and residual primary ferment yeasts) to produce enough C02 for proper carbonation)

I plan to experiment in upcoming batches with transferring early enough before terminal gravity to allow for the original fermenting yeast(s) to do the carbonating
 

overthebarsbrewing

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Great stuff OTBB - my first thought just seeing the pic was that the left one (force carbed as I late read) was oxidised.

6:2:2 S-04:T58:WB06 seems rather low on S-04 compared to others - was it so inferior that you would stick to 1318 in future, or would you consider a 9:.5:.5 or something of the blend?

It's so frustrating not being able to taste things over the internet!!! :)

Yep, I wanted to try that ratio first though because there was a BIG variation in the amounts of S-04 found in the samples tested by @isomerization. For example, 7/2/0 colonies of S04/T58/WB06 for Julius, 2/1/2 for Doppelganger, 7/1/1 for Alter Ego, 1/0/2 for Green. The only consistent thing was moderate amounts of CBC-1/T-2 (not surprising all things considered about this strain and its [very likely] role as carbing/conditioning strain.

I'm not abandoning the yeast mix yet as the mid-ferment and end-ferment samples smelled and tasted so darn promising!!! My next plan is to do a higher ratio of S-04 to T-58 (something like 9:1 I think).

I also am going to do a batch without WB-06 and one without T-58 (keeping S-04 as a constant).

Next big advance in the interwebs needs to be ability to share homebrew samples :)
 

JohnConnor

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The CW is that TH and HF and others must be using 1318 and thus a clone should use 1318, oats, low IBUs, high in CL, with no crystal malt.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. If that's the recipe people find that they like, awesome for them. If you found a different road, kudos. Neither is correct or better. Just different. I've found merit in using and not using oats. I don't like high CL because I think it tastes like mineral water. I don't like drinking pure hop juice... it's too unbalanced for me. But others like both. I've tried different yeast but always seem to find myself missing 1318... maybe I haven't tried the right alternatives. You can keep your crystal malt ;). CW isn't wrong, just different.
 

Sbe2

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That's been my favorite thing about what @isomerization started here: screw conventional wisdom. I ditched basically everything I did before, started from the ground up, and built it back up in an entirely different way, and my mouth thanks me every day.

So true:mug:
 

stonebrewer

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How is keg natural carbing different from bottling?

It seems like a lot less work for one thing. You don't need to add sugar. You need a spunding valve or some sort of pressure release with a keg. I believe you can reduce oxidation by using a keg, and that is the main reason I ferment in one. Sure there are other differences I am not thinking of...:mug:
 

melville

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There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. If that's the recipe people find that they like, awesome for them. If you found a different road, kudos. Neither is correct or better. Just different. I've found merit in using and not using oats. I don't like high CL because I think it tastes like mineral water. I don't like drinking pure hop juice... it's too unbalanced for me. But others like both. I've tried different yeast but always seem to find myself missing 1318... maybe I haven't tried the right alternatives. You can keep your crystal malt ;). CW isn't wrong, just different.


CW is exactly wrong regarding this brewery and that's awesome, that's the point I'm making.
 

bbohanon

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Regarding the S-04, T-58 and Wb-06 yeast, what fermentation temperature has worked best for the guys who pitched them all together? Is there a consensus as to the yeast % ratio that worked best so far? I'll be using these yeast next week and will tweak depending on what everyone's findings were. Any suggestions? Also note, I don't really have any way to temp control as of now with ambient temp being 70. Could use my AC I suppose to bring down to 65.

NJ, if there is a way for you to get a cheap swamp cooler to put your fermenter into for the initial pitch of the yeast around 64-65 deg it would help your beer more than you know.
Getting the beer to around 64/65, pitching and letting it start slow and ramp to 70deg over a few days seems to (at least in my experience) get that peachy/juicy/citrusy nose without totally turning it into a fusel, estery mess.

The most critical part of a beer becoming a beer (and any beer) in my opinion is the onset and first 24/48 hours of fermentation..thats when those fusels and esters that really toss a beer off its best game occur.

Once the most active cycle of fermentation starts and levels off, you can start to ramp it up slowly to 70 but honestly, if you can find something as cheap and easy as a swamp cooler to make to get your fermenter through that first 24/48 hour fermentation on these IPAs (and any of your beers), your beer and taste buds will thank you for it.

Before I had a temp controller that I put into a thermowell in my fermenter, that lives in a dedicated freezer for a fermentation chamber, I used swamp coolers for this..kept the fermenter in the swamp cooler for 3-4 days and then I pulled it out to finish it off/dryhop at room temp (70-72)
It worked pretty well for the setup...
 

medwaybrewer

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Anyone that has been experimenting with this yeast combination...do you like the results? Is it giving you the character you're looking for? Just looking for a little guidance. I'm planning to brew my 21st batch of "New England IPA" tomorrow. I've always used Conan or WY1318...with the WY1318 giving me more dependable results. However, I am planning to use S04 tomorrow given all the talk on here. I have some T-58 and WB-06 as well but not sure what the results of adding those are? I'm a little afraid to be honest. :)

I'm going with a simple malt bill of 88% Fawcett Maris Otter and 12% Carafoam. Whirlpool and dryhop with Citra/Mosaic/Galaxy.

The last version I did was the best I've made with just the simple Rahr 2-row and 12% Carafoam with the same hop combo..but a little MO to add some maltiness and complexity. The majority of my previous attempts have had combinations of malted wheat, flaked wheat, oats, honey malt, golden naked oats, etc...but I feel like simpler bill with Carafoam is the magical stuff.
 

medwaybrewer

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Also what are people using for the natural conditioning processes? I have not found any benefit to dry hopping at high krausen and have found that I get the best aroma dry hopping at TG or very close to it...for only about 2.5 days around 60F.

So given this, I could ferment out, dry hop, cold crash, dump the the majority of yeast/hops....close transfer from conical to a keg/spunding with priming sugar and CBC-1. However, I don't like the idea of crashing it down and then having to warm it back up to condition.

Also, where are people adding the CBC-1 and priming sugar? Into the keg and then transferring onto it? I presume you don't want any starsan in there that could kill the yeast correct?

thoughts??
 

melville

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Regarding the S-04, T-58 and Wb-06 yeast, what fermentation temperature has worked best for the guys who pitched them all together? Is there a consensus as to the yeast % ratio that worked best so far? I'll be using these yeast next week and will tweak depending on what everyone's findings were. Any suggestions? Also note, I don't really have any way to temp control as of now with ambient temp being 70. Could use my AC I suppose to bring down to 65.

For my tastes, T-58 at 4-5%. For WB-06 it's trickier because everyone is going to have a different threshold, but for me somewhere between 10-15 percent (My ranges explored 30%, 7%, 15%, 25%, 12% several times). My ferm temps have been 65F. I pitch all at once, at the recommended range, rehydrated, at 85F and let it settle to 65F. Note: I use the CBC-1 yeast to naturally condition once fermentation is complete — YMMV.
 

couchsending

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Also what are people using for the natural conditioning processes? I have not found any benefit to dry hopping at high krausen and have found that I get the best aroma dry hopping at TG or very close to it...for only about 2.5 days around 60F.

So given this, I could ferment out, dry hop, cold crash, dump the the majority of yeast/hops....close transfer from conical to a keg/spunding with priming sugar and CBC-1. However, I don't like the idea of crashing it down and then having to warm it back up to condition.

Also, where are people adding the CBC-1 and priming sugar? Into the keg and then transferring onto it? I presume you don't want any starsan in there that could kill the yeast correct?

thoughts??

I think it all depends on process how cold you need to get it for a successful transfer with minimal gunk. I'm trying a few different methods at the moment. Last couple have been dropped to 60 for a day or two then pull as much yeast, add DH for two days, drop to 50ish and dump as much Hop matter as possible... let it warm back up to 65 then pitch CBC-1 and sugar or a CBC-1 quicky krausen and let it sit in the conical for an hour or two to hopefully thoroughly mix then close transfer to a starsan purged keg. Leave at 65ish for 5-7 days. Seems like it has been taking about 5 days for spunding valve to get to 28psi (gotta look at my notes). I usually give it another couple days then put the keg in my chest freezer then and slowly ramp the temps down to 32. When head pressure gets close to 12 I put it on gas and leave it for a few days, blow junk out with party tap then hook it up for pours.

I've had a few conicals dry hopping at 50 while I've been gone that I'm going to dump when I get back, then let warm up to 65 for conditioning. Just interested to see how the different temps differ.

One of the conicals has the yeast that we isolated from a HF growler. I'm still not 100% sure that what we isolated was there Ale Yeast, 90% sure but there is still a little doubt. It wasn't isolated directly from a growler but from a starter I grew which means that if there was something else in there it could have taken over when I propped it. It was the only sacc yeast though... I believe I've identified the yeast that I have on my hands but again I need to do a little more research. Good thing is I was just in Greensboro and grabbed some more growlers and some canned Works of Love Earl Grey (which is an absolutely insane 3.7% beer BTW). Gonna prop some more yeast up from these and see what I get. See if the yeast acts the same in the starter. If what we isolated is what I think it is there is no way it is on anyone's radar.
 

melville

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I was at Tree House yesterday to take advantage of the Green cans they had left from Friday. Enjoyed a pour of In Perpetuity while I was there as well as a bottle of Native One. In Perpetuity was very nice, albeit more subdued than their flagships — by design it seems — an easier to drink offering IMO. Native One was fantastic, the sourness was assertive, but perfectly so. Nice brett and saison aromas with a light touch on the barnyard. Two things to note — In Perpetuity's yeast profile and Green's do seem different, with Green dialing up the contributions of T-58 and WB-06, which are subtle to begin with. It's fun to have more knobs and dials to turn in crafting a recipe and using a mix, especially a dry yeast mix, makes this fairly simple given enough experience with various ratios. Second — as has been pointed out before, TH beers are very softly carbonated, not lightly — softly. My efforts have been considerably better since switching over to CBC-1, but in direct side by side comparison there's still this detail to iron out.
 

NJGeorge

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I was at Tree House yesterday to take advantage of the Green cans they had left from Friday. Enjoyed a pour of In Perpetuity while I was there as well as a bottle of Native One. In Perpetuity was very nice, albeit more subdued than their flagships — by design it seems — an easier to drink offering IMO. Native One was fantastic, the sourness was assertive, but perfectly so. Nice brett and saison aromas with a light touch on the barnyard. Two things to note — In Perpetuity's yeast profile and Green's do seem different, with Green dialing up the contributions of T-58 and WB-06, which are subtle to begin with. It's fun to have more knobs and dials to turn in crafting a recipe and using a mix, especially a dry yeast mix, makes this fairly simple given enough experience with various ratios. Second — as has been pointed out before, TH beers are very softly carbonated, not lightly — softly. My efforts have been considerably better since switching over to CBC-1, but in direct side by side comparison there's still this detail to iron out.

Good stuff! Had a can of green last night and man what a great beer. Doesn't green supposedly just have S-04 and Wb-06? And of course CBC-1.
 

NJGeorge

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NJ, if there is a way for you to get a cheap swamp cooler to put your fermenter into for the initial pitch of the yeast around 64-65 deg it would help your beer more than you know.
Getting the beer to around 64/65, pitching and letting it start slow and ramp to 70deg over a few days seems to (at least in my experience) get that peachy/juicy/citrusy nose without totally turning it into a fusel, estery mess.

The most critical part of a beer becoming a beer (and any beer) in my opinion is the onset and first 24/48 hours of fermentation..thats when those fusels and esters that really toss a beer off its best game occur.

Once the most active cycle of fermentation starts and levels off, you can start to ramp it up slowly to 70 but honestly, if you can find something as cheap and easy as a swamp cooler to make to get your fermenter through that first 24/48 hour fermentation on these IPAs (and any of your beers), your beer and taste buds will thank you for it.

Before I had a temp controller that I put into a thermowell in my fermenter, that lives in a dedicated freezer for a fermentation chamber, I used swamp coolers for this..kept the fermenter in the swamp cooler for 3-4 days and then I pulled it out to finish it off/dryhop at room temp (70-72)
It worked pretty well for the setup...

Thanks for the info! Just to clarify, which yeast are we talking about here? The S-04, Wb-06 and T-58? I think a couple guys here got good results when pitching the yeast into warmer wort around 80. Will definitely give the swamp cooler a try.
 

werral

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CW isn't wrong, just different.

The actual TH beers were lab tested and found to have 3-4 yeasts. None of which are 1318, 007 or Conan. I'm not saying you can't make an amazing or even better beer with 1318, but you can't "clone" a TH beer with it. CW is wrong...and different.
 

JohnConnor

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For my tastes, T-58 at 4-5%. For WB-06 it's trickier because everyone is going to have a different threshold, but for me somewhere between 10-15 percent (My ranges explored 30%, 7%, 15%, 25%, 12% several times). My ferm temps have been 65F. I pitch all at once, at the recommended range, rehydrated, at 85F and let it settle to 65F. Note: I use the CBC-1 yeast to naturally condition once fermentation is complete — YMMV.

Do you pitch CBC-1 with some extra sugar? Or let it munch on what's left?
 

couchsending

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The actual TH beers were lab tested and found to have 3-4 yeasts. None of which are 1318, 007 or Conan. I'm not saying you can't make an amazing or even better beer with 1318, but you can't "clone" a TH beer with it. CW is wrong...and different.

007 and S-04 are the same yeast.. it's just potentially easier to mix with dry. However If 007/S-04 is the predomenant yeast there is no reason you couldn't build up a starter of 007 then just add a gram here or there of the other yeasts.

I think the acid production and tartness is key to amplifying the "juice" like nature... you would not get this with 1318.

Anyone done their PH corrections with Citric acid in any of their yeast blend attempts? That's next up for me I think.
 

bbohanon

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Thanks for the info! Just to clarify, which yeast are we talking about here? The S-04, Wb-06 and T-58? I think a couple guys here got good results when pitching the yeast into warmer wort around 80. Will definitely give the swamp cooler a try.

For me, I ALWAYS pitch my yeast (any and ALL yeast) at the temp I will be fermenting at.

I have always lived by the code of getting the yeast/starter as close to the pitching temp as the wort will be fermenting at and then pitching it into the wort at that same temp (so 65 deg starter into 65deg wort) so there is no risk to shocking the yeast in any way and most craft breweries follow this same mentality or pitch cold (from a chilled yeast brink).

There was a brulosphy experiment on this (http://brulosophy.com/2014/12/15/the-temp-at-which-we-pitch-exbeeriment-results/) that counters this logic (along with many here that will chime in that pitching hot(ter) than your fermenting temp is not harmful) but this is just MY personal preference and has served me well. YMMV

I can say that I personally would never recommend pitching any yeast at 80deg. That seems WAY to hot for any yeast pitch. Again, YMMV but I would target 75 as my max temp for a pitch (and continuing to bring it down to fermentation temp post-pitch as quickly as possible)

Swamp coolers are awesome to start with fermentation control..mine solidified my investment in getting a bigger, better controlled fermentation chamber once I saw just how much of a difference fermentation temp control has on all of my beers.
3 years later, I am now up to having 3 chest freezers in my brew shed..all on temp controllers. LOL

Good luck and cheers!
 

TheHairyHop

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007 and S-04 are the same yeast.. it's just potentially easier to mix with dry. However If 007/S-04 is the predomenant yeast there is no reason you couldn't build up a starter of 007 then just add a gram here or there of the other yeasts.

I think the acid production and tartness is key to amplifying the "juice" like nature... you would not get this with 1318.

Anyone done their PH corrections with Citric acid in any of their yeast blend attempts? That's next up for me I think.

Treehouse beers are not at a pH that is unusual for an IPA
 
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