Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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TheHairyHop

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Awkward indeed.
Dry yeast doesnt need oxygenation but there is a limit to how much oxygen you can get into your wort by shaking, it typically lower then yeast needs.
Yea, the shaking is more to get the dry yeast in suspension and not just caking on the bottom than anything else. I ferment in 5 gallon corny kegs as well. Closed transfer to fermentation purged serving kegs. So, yea... not sure. Thankfully, I just wasted Wakatu instead of something more expensive. Although, I was really looking forward to having a Wakatu IPA on tap :/
I guess the one other variable was that I switched to Bravo for my whirlpooling this time. I don't think Bravo has anything going on with it like extra manganese or whatever Scott identified as an oxidation precursor in his book. Could be wrong though
 

NJGeorge

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That is fascinating indeed. I will pull the trigger and get some wlp540 and wlp644 to play with.
I'm done experimenting with s04 and the other dry yeasts personally. None of them give me bright juicy flavors. La3 was always preferred by a long shot, I really wonder now how much thiols la3 releases. I guess it would be fair to associate the signature neipa juice with mainly thiols.
Have you had any luck trying those yeast yet? If so, what did you think of them?
 

beervoid

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Just wanted to add, I tried Bry-97 vs La3, the bry batch dropped clear and smells very different, much more clean true to hop and less juicy then la3.
Its carbing now, if something changes I will report back.
 

NJGeorge

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I know we would like to know what yeast they use but we could try to get close trying new things. I have a batch fermented with the new bananza and a half pack of s04. 1.082OG going to dry hop with mostly citra, some Galaxy Simco and Amarillo.
 

Hog

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Another guy who's been lurking from the get-go attempting to make a small contribution here.

Following @suregork 's suggestions I've got a batch fermenting with WLP544 - the Rochefort strain. I'll let you all know it goes. Doing this un-blended to get the best idea of how it tastes in an IPA and it possibly being the S04-like component of the blend (Suregork).

The starter is the bready-est smelling yeast I've brewed with thus since I began brewing NEIPAs on a regular basis in 2016.

Recipe is:
20litres
Golden promise 4.2kg
Goldennaked oats 1.2kg
Rolled oats - 1.2kg
Acidulated 0.300g

100g grams each of citra, galaxy and Nelson. Late boil and dry hop.

I've consumed a-lot or Rochefort 8 and a fair bit of treehouse. Could definitely equate the treehouse fluffy light mouth feel with Rochefort 8.

If it turns out alright I'll try another with WLP544 + Sach Trois and possibly T-58.

Anyway cheers I'll post how it tastes.
 

Hog

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How’s it going how does it smell and taste? My batch using bananza and some s04 is promising.

Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.
 
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NJGeorge

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Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.
My batch is good. Fruity banana notes. I haven’t brewed in a while and forgot to adjust my efficiency on the recipe calculator so it came out to 9%! So it’s a bit strong. I can see similarities to TH but obviously not exact. I want to mix the bananza with that other yeast Omega just came out with which is a pof- Belgian yeast. Keep us posted!
 

beervoid

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Hey there,

Sample after 6 days in the fermenter tastes like grape hubba-bubba (to me) like melted grape hubba-bubba tape. That's my most accurate description and precisely what I taste. so I hope that helps. To me it's a good flavour, loads of character.

The smell is hard for me to describe. Like artificial fruit/orange juice concentrate. Plasticky fruit. Winegums?

Those flavours and scents are strong too, not muted and as I said, to me, good.

Having said that it's a bit too early to tell. I'm at 1.030 down from 1.062.

I'm going to add 200grams of hops now and see how that flavour changes. Will update again shortly.

How's the bananza S04 tasting?

Cheers.
What temps did you ferment at? Im giving wlp540 a go soon
 

Hog

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What temps did you ferment at? Im giving wlp540 a go soon

Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this batch that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.
 
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beervoid

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Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this yeast that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.
Thanks for the feedback.
Did you aireate?
 

Hog

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Thanks for the feedback.
Did you aireate?

Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.
 

beervoid

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Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.
Wlp says the strain benefits from extra aireation
 

Clyde McCoy

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@suregork have you tested Fermentis S-04 and T-58 and found liquid strains (White Labs, Escarpment, etc.) with identical banding patterns? Would be useful if you could find a match in case Tree House isn't using Fermentis yeast.

Screen Shot 2021-02-08 at 12.37.21 AM.png


Screen Shot 2021-02-08 at 12.37.43 AM.png


These are some of the unresolved strains:

Screen Shot 2021-02-08 at 12.42.15 AM.png
 

suregork

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I haven't tested very many no. I do have a load of White Labs (including WLP540) and Fermentis strains in the -80 freezer though, so can try to test them at some point when I have time later this spring. Currently out of office on parental leave.
 

chieftain

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So I gotta say that taste-wise, my latest attempt was notably in range for the Hurricane/Typhoon series, which is one of my favorites. I definitely had some process screw-ups along the way, that likely negatively impacted the beer, but this is progress (for me, at least)!

I ran S04 at 62 for prob 4-5 days, then gradually bumped to 65-67-70 for another 4-5 days. I then dry-hopped in a separate keg, after a cool crash to 60 degrees. The beer went from 1.068 to 1.010, so it does not have the body that Tree House does, but it is also not "thin," perhaps thanks to dry hopping load. The beer was notably clear going into the dry hopping keg, and came out opaque.

Water profile - 52ppm Ca, 21ppm Mg, 46 ppm NaCl, 162 CaSO4, 104 Cl.

Grist

Name
Type
#
%/IBU
12 lbs​
Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)​
Grain​
7​
70.6 %​
4 lbs​
Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.2 SRM)​
Grain​
8​
23.5 %​
1 lbs​
Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)​
Grain​
9​
5.9 %​

Hops

Amt
Name
Type
#
%/IBU
0.25 oz​
Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min​
Hop​
10​
10.5 IBUs​
1.00 oz​
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min​
Hop​
11​
7.0 IBUs​
0.50 oz​
Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min​
Hop​
12​
3.2 IBUs​

Amt
Name
Type
#
%/IBU
2.00 oz​
Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min​
Hop​
13​
12.5 IBUs​
2.00 oz​
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 30.0 min​
Hop​
14​
13.5 IBUs​

Amt
Name
Type
#
%/IBU
6.90 oz​
Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days​
Hop​
16​
0.0 IBUs​
3.00 oz​
Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days​
Hop​
17​
0.0 IBUs​
 

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NJGeorge

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Hey there,

No worries. Good question/point, I did not aerate this beer. I have never aerated a beer!

Hope that's of value and may of course explain the stall.

Cheers.
How’s your beer doing? Did you ever pitch another yeast to finish it?
 

beervoid

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Hey there,

I fermented at around 19c (66f).

I have a fermentation chamber with temp probe on stainless ss brewbucket.

So it's day 8 for me now and I'm still at 1.030. It has not moved in the past 60 hours.

Also FYI I used in-date WLP540 and had it in a 2.5 litre starter for 2 days before pitching. 3L flask nearly bubbled over.

I think this is interesting because I've read a few forum posts where people have said this yeast has stalled around there (1.030) for them too.

Perfect opportunity to pitch some 644 and T-58 perhaps? It's almost too perfect, right? Finishing the beer with two minority yeasts after your favourite yeast stalls to add the final touch. I know that's jumping to conclusions but just a funny observation I had to add.

When you do get around to trying this, I do not think you'll be disappointed. It tastes a little rocheforty (only a little) before dry hopping but post dry-hop it's just tasting like fruit-bubblegum juice. Does not taste like a Belgian beer at all (to me).

Can't wait to hear how you go with it.

I haven't had any treehouse in the past 2 years but the last beer I had was king Julius and it absolutely had similarities to this. The big candy taste and bubblegum this yeast gives off reminds me of KJ for sure, and there's nothing about this batch that makes me say, "no, that's a miss". You'll see for yourself.

Might up the temperature a bit now or potentially add a packet of 644.

I think @suregork is really onto something here.

BTW I've been trying all the different S04 wb06 T-58 combos from the get go. Dumped all of them, did not have any success with those.
So i'm on day 9 and I'm in the exact same situation as yourself, sitting at went from 1.072 to 1.030, doesn't seem to move much.
What is your beer currently doing? I'm contemplating between pitching some other yeast or just use this and blend it in my other batches.
 

Hog

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How’s your beer doing? Did you ever pitch another yeast to finish it?
So i'm on day 9 and I'm in the exact same situation as yourself, sitting at went from 1.072 to 1.030, doesn't seem to move much.
What is your beer currently doing? I'm contemplating between pitching some other yeast or just use this and blend it in my other batches.

Hey again,

That's very interesting your batch with wlp540 has also stalled at 1.030 and same starting gravity, crazy!

Yes @NJGeorge - my beer wouldn't budge from 1.030 for about 4 days... I ended up pitching a full whitelabs package of WLP644 without a starter. The beer just made its way down to 1.018. I decided to cold crash it on Tuesday and i'll keg it this weekend.

I'll be sure to provide preliminary flavour updates as soon as I keg. It was still tasting good out of the fermenter before I crashed it.

Look forward to reading your updates @beervoid too.
 

TBryerton

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First split batch with WLP023 against Vermont... 12g split into two fermenters.

1.052

Millenium @ 30 (supposedly highest amount of 3MH thiol according to 2019 YCH data)

Simcoe @ 5

WP: Idaho7, Mosaic, Simcoe

DH will be mostly Citra with maybe a bit of Mosaic and Cascade.
@couchsending - how did these turn out? Did the Millenium @ 30 have a noticeable impact?
 

couchsending

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Honestly I’ve been super underwhelmed with 023 so far. As compare to VT the mouthfeel is much drier at the same gravity and it seems to amplify bitterness. It might have a slightly more “juicy” flavor profile but VT seems to be a bit more aromatic. The overall aroma profile is very similar between the two. Fermentation speed and attenuation are almost identical. 023 does seem to create a hazier beer using the same grist and process.

Just started cooling the split batch I did with VT in one fermenter and a blend of 023/540 in the other. Both hit 1.012 from 1.050 in under 48 hours. 66* for VT, 68* for 023/540. Both were brewed with hops trying to maximize thiol content on the hotside (mosaic, southern cross, millenium, Idaho 7)... both are rather underwhelming before DH to be honest.

I have zero clue if the Millennium I have is any good or not. It smells fine but I don’t know what good Millennium even smells like. A rather hard hop to track down that’s for sure.
 

beervoid

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Honestly I’ve been super underwhelmed with 023 so far. As compare to VT the mouthfeel is much drier at the same gravity and it seems to amplify bitterness. It might have a slightly more “juicy” flavor profile but VT seems to be a bit more aromatic. The overall aroma profile is very similar between the two. Fermentation speed and attenuation are almost identical. 023 does seem to create a hazier beer using the same grist and process.

Just started cooling the split batch I did with VT in one fermenter and a blend of 023/540 in the other. Both hit 1.012 from 1.050 in under 48 hours. 66* for VT, 68* for 023/540. Both were brewed with hops trying to maximize thiol content on the hotside (mosaic, southern cross, millenium, Idaho 7)... both are rather underwhelming before DH to be honest.

I have zero clue if the Millennium I have is any good or not. It smells fine but I don’t know what good Millennium even smells like. A rather hard hop to track down that’s for sure.
I think chasing oils from hotside might not be the most efficient way to get them in the wort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see why those thiol releasing enzymes wouldn't be effective after fermentation. No need to hop during active fermentation but might need highish temps to stay active just like hop creep enzymes.
 

couchsending

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I think chasing oils from hotside might not be the most efficient way to get them in the wort.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I also don't see why those thiol releasing enzymes wouldn't be effective after fermentation. No need to hop during active fermentation but might need highish temps to stay active just like hop creep enzymes.

Depends... From my understanding a lot of the thiols aren’t that volatile. 3MH for instance actually increases with time in the boil. Most of the studies I’ve seen have focused on getting the thiols into the wort from the hotside. I am going to dry hop this 023/540 blend a bit warmer than I would normally do so there should be plenty of yeast in suspension. I just hate dealing with hop creep.

However I did even get some hop creep down at 58 with 023 on another batch which surprised me as it’s a bit sluggish below 68 from what I can gather. The mouthfeel alone and increased bitterness don’t really inspire me to continue to use it.
 

beervoid

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Depends... From my understanding a lot of the thiols aren’t that volatile. 3MH for instance actually increases with time in the boil. Most of the studies I’ve seen have focused on getting the thiols into the wort from the hotside. I am going to dry hop this 023/540 blend a bit warmer than I would normally do so there should be plenty of yeast in suspension. I just hate dealing with hop creep.

However I did even get some hop creep down at 58 with 023 on another batch which surprised me as it’s a bit sluggish below 68 from what I can gather. The mouthfeel alone and increased bitterness don’t really inspire me to continue to use it.
But isnt that where those thiol releasing enzymes should do their magic, release those bound thiols instead of relying on hotside, perhaps vigorous fermentation blows all the nice aroma and flavor away. Like you stated before, and I'm experiencing the same thing, no matter how much I load up hotside kettle or wp, when I smell and taste the beer post fermentation, I have never been impressed.
 

couchsending

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But isnt that where those thiol releasing enzymes should do their magic, release those bound thiols instead of relying on hotside, perhaps vigorous fermentation blows all the nice aroma and flavor away. Like you stated before, and I'm experiencing the same thing, no matter how much I load up hotside kettle or wp, when I smell and taste the beer post fermentation, I have never been impressed.

I don’t know about that. I’m pretty amazed how well certain hops make it through fermentation. Idaho7 and Mosaic especially. Nelson and Riwaka too.

I’ve been focusing on the 3MH thiol which certain yeasts have the ability to turn into 3MHA. However who the hell knows if the hops I’m using even have thiol content similar to what that YCH study reported???
 

beervoid

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Update on wlp540 batch.
I decided about 6 days ago cause it didn't move, to pitch a package of verdant. Now 6 days later it's down to around 1.023 so still far from what I'm aiming for (1.016)
I expected verdant to finish it off rather quick but it seems to just bubble away very slowly ever since I pitched it. Wlp540 smells really nice, I want to try to make this work but have no way to aireate my wort and I think this is the reason it stalled out earlier.
Next batch I'll probably co pitch it with half a package of verdant and hope it will speed things up a bit
 
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Hog

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Hi all,

Update on my wlp540 and wlp644 batch.

It's tasting great. I still think wlp540 tastes tree-housy but the 644 gave it more of a generic neipa flavour.

Next time i'd try wlp540 only and if it stalls again I'll add some wb-06 or t-58 to finish it off.

Still think if you're considering wlp540 you should go for it. Get that very fluffy mouthfeel and bubblegum note.

Cheers.
 

brewpharm Hill

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Hi all,

Update on my wlp540 and wlp644 batch.

It's tasting great. I still think wlp540 tastes tree-housy but the 644 gave it more of a generic neipa flavour.

Next time i'd try wlp540 only and if it stalls again I'll add some wb-06 or t-58 to finish it off.

Still think if you're considering wlp540 you should go for it. Get that very fluffy mouthfeel and bubblegum note.

Cheers.

Do you think WLP540 is the workhorse not actually S04? A blend of wlp540 and s04 might be nice - the attenuation from s04 will stop the stall.
 

Hog

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Hi,

Yeah that's the idea, based on @suregork's suggestion that wlp540 could be a "dark horse".

WLP540 is the closest I've come to anything resembling treehouse. The bubblegum in particular.

I think your suggestion of finishing with S04 is a good one... or even co-pitching the two to stop the stall.

My next run I'll probably try WLP540 then add the wb06 and t-58 later if it stalls.

Either way I think you'll get a nice beer with 540 and s04.

Cheers.
 

beervoid

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Hi,

Yeah that's the idea, based on @suregork's suggestion that wlp540 could be a "dark horse".

WLP540 is the closest I've come to anything resembling treehouse. The bubblegum in particular.

I think your suggestion of finishing with S04 is a good one... or even co-pitching the two to stop the stall.

My next run I'll probably try WLP540 then add the wb06 and t-58 later if it stalls.

Either way I think you'll get a nice beer with 540 and s04.

Cheers.
That bubblegum does fade very fast though, at least with my batches. It really seems they got their DO down to absurd low levels, or somehow found a way to create so much esters they stick around.
The esters of WLP540 seems to change overtime from tropical bubblegum to more raisin, dark fruit like flavors.

It really seems to me as mentioned in this thread before that the first few days after dryhopping the flavor is closest to the Tree House kind of beer, intense fruit and hop flavors...
 
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echoALEia

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That bubblegum does fade very fast though, at least with my batches. It really seems they got their DO down to absurd low levels, or somehow found a way to create so much esters they stick around.
The esters of WLP540 seems to change overtime from tropical bubblegum to more raisin, dark fruit like flavors.

It really seems to me as mentioned in this thread before that the first few days after dryhopping the flavor is closest to the Tree House kind of beer, intense fruit and hop flavors...

This was my experience with 540 exactly. The bubblegum during fermentation is very transient and does not last. I started out at 64, let it rise to 66, fermented it for 3 days, then let it free rise after that. I actually got some fusels from it after that.

We all know this yeast chart (I personally love it)

Can anyone explain why New England has a question mark and why it’s on the same line as wb06? I must be missing something. It would make sense to use this yeast more than wb06.

Cheers everyone! 🍻
 

TBryerton

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Anyone have one of the new curiosity beers that are just Pilsner malt? It seems like they’re making their beers with significantly less protein than all these other breweries, with just as much haze and hop flavor/aroma.
 

EstebanPro86

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Drinking a ggggreeennn right now canned this month and the aroma is of dog kibble/soy sauce. I was reading that that can happen when old Munich malt is used...
 

NJGeorge

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Anyone have one of the new curiosity beers that are just Pilsner malt? It seems like they’re making their beers with significantly less protein than all these other breweries, with just as much haze and hop flavor/aroma.
I haven’t. Wish I could try one but there is a lot of protein in good pilsner malt.
 

TBryerton

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Continental Pilsner malt, generally no.

North American Pilsner malt, potentially yes. But it depends.
It seems like the mindset of most breweries lately is to load these beers with oats, wheat, or something similar, and a lot of beers that people seem to be drooling over taste like an astringent mess to me. Even some of the better ones are like eating a turkey dinner - they’re so filling I don’t want more than one. Maybe I’m just getting old! Lol

But this seems to be another indication that TH is doing what they do w/o adjuncts for the most part.
 

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